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A meaningful guaranty of authenticity--a challenge to PCGS!!!!!
majorbigtime
Posts: 2,937 ✭
From another post entitled Does PCGS Guarantee for Authenticity?:
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homerunhall
Collector
Yes.
Reply
Coindexter
Veteran
Mr. Hall speaks!
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From another post entitled What exactly is PCGS's so-called AUTHENTICITY guaranty?
<< I doubt there is a certified coin out there that PCGS wouldn't guarantee and purchase back if it turned out to be counterfeit. The loss of credibility if they didn't would cost them more financially than the coins fair market value could. >>
I agree. So why after 20 years do they still refuse to make any statement in writing of a guarantee of authenticity? We aren't asking for anything as complex as their grading guarantee. I would be satisfied with the simple statement "If any coin certified by PCGS is subsequently determined to not be authentic, PCGS will make it right with the owner of the coin." Twenty four words.
That would satisfy me, how about it Majorbigtime? Would that satify you? >>
MBT replies
That would be a start.
I don't think "make it right" is specific enough (see Humpty Dumpty above), how about "....PCGS will pay the owner the fair market value of a genuine coin of the same type, date, mint mark, variety and condition."
If PCGS adopts such verbiage as part of an "official" guaranty, I will be a happy camper!!
I'll beleive it when I see it!!
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Allright HRH, you say PCGS does guarantee authenticity and all owners of PCGS coins are appreciative of this public prouncement.
THE CHALLENGE IS FOR PCGS TO ADOPT A FORMAL, WRITTEN GUARANTY OF AUTHENTICITY USING VERBIAGE SIMILAR TO THAT SUGGESTED ABOVE!
As I said, I'll believe it when I see it!
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homerunhall
Collector
Yes.
Reply
Coindexter
Veteran
Mr. Hall speaks!
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From another post entitled What exactly is PCGS's so-called AUTHENTICITY guaranty?
<< I doubt there is a certified coin out there that PCGS wouldn't guarantee and purchase back if it turned out to be counterfeit. The loss of credibility if they didn't would cost them more financially than the coins fair market value could. >>
I agree. So why after 20 years do they still refuse to make any statement in writing of a guarantee of authenticity? We aren't asking for anything as complex as their grading guarantee. I would be satisfied with the simple statement "If any coin certified by PCGS is subsequently determined to not be authentic, PCGS will make it right with the owner of the coin." Twenty four words.
That would satisfy me, how about it Majorbigtime? Would that satify you? >>
MBT replies
That would be a start.
I don't think "make it right" is specific enough (see Humpty Dumpty above), how about "....PCGS will pay the owner the fair market value of a genuine coin of the same type, date, mint mark, variety and condition."
If PCGS adopts such verbiage as part of an "official" guaranty, I will be a happy camper!!
I'll beleive it when I see it!!
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Allright HRH, you say PCGS does guarantee authenticity and all owners of PCGS coins are appreciative of this public prouncement.
THE CHALLENGE IS FOR PCGS TO ADOPT A FORMAL, WRITTEN GUARANTY OF AUTHENTICITY USING VERBIAGE SIMILAR TO THAT SUGGESTED ABOVE!
As I said, I'll believe it when I see it!
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Give it up, you amorphous blob.
Russ, NCNE >>
Your words speak for themselves, and are demonstrative of both your high intelligence and outstanding demeanor, or lack of same.
If my quest for a meaningful, written guaranty of authenticity from PCGS meets with success, the entire collector/dealer community will be the beneficiary. I also believe a strong guaranty would bolster PCGS's standing as a premimum grading service at a time when quality counterfeits and alterations have begun to proliferate.
So far, no one else has complained about what PCGS does if confronted with this issue. So, if you are champion the rights of others, who are they? No one has gotten screwed that I know of. You are the sole beotcher, and do not seem to possess a counterfeit in a PCGS slab. Do you have such an item or not?
I also believe a strong guaranty would bolster PCGS's standing as a premimum grading service at a time when quality counterfeits and alterations have begun to proliferate.
Now you want to tell them how to run their business. Who the heck are you to make policy at PCGS?
coins in PCGS slabs.
what if more counterfiet morgans were discovered? but this time
it was discovered 1000s of them in slabs were fakes?
there may very well be an incident that we cannot predict
where collectors may enjoy that guaranty.
but i am just being hypothetical. i enjoy my coins being slabbed
by PCGS, and I consider them the best.
<< <i>If my quest for a meaningful, written guaranty of authenticity from PCGS meets with success, the entire collector/dealer community will be the beneficiary.
So far, no one else has complained about what PCGS does if confronted with this issue. So, if you are champion the rights of others, who are they? No one has gotten screwed that I know of. You are the sole beotcher, and do not seem to possess a counterfeit in a PCGS slab. Do you have such an item or not?
I also believe a strong guaranty would bolster PCGS's standing as a premimum grading service at a time when quality counterfeits and alterations have begun to proliferate.
Now you want to tell them how to run their business. Who the heck are you to make policy at PCGS? >>
Do you have such an item or not?---
--I have no prior or pending dispute with PCGS.
Now you want to tell them how to run their business. Who the heck are you to make policy at PCGS?--
--I am a PCGS customer dealing with a company that purports to guarantee authenticity but has failed to issue a definitive guaranty.
--I am a PCGS customer dealing with a company that purports to guarantee authenticity but has failed to issue a definitive guaranty. >>
Purports? What part of the guarantee is not a guarantee?
If you can sue on it, it ain't illusory, is it?
Since when does a consumer get to determine what, if any, guarantees there are and how they are worded?
Next, they do not have to answer you. At all.
The mods seem to tolerate your inanity. I would not care if they bammed you. You would cease to embarrass other legal professionals that way.
<< <i>
Purports? What part of the guarantee is not a guarantee?
>>
Why don't you read it? Like the comic strip, you will have to ask yourself "Where's Waldo?".
The only reference to authenticity is in the title and opening line, without any operative language.
Here it is:
PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity
Customer Bill of Rights
The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection.
If you can sue on it, it ain't illusory, is it?
Since when does a consumer get to determine what, if any, guarantees there are and how they are worded?
Next, they do not have to answer you. At all.>>
Stiffy, under the "guarantee", as written, how is the amount of compensation to the owner of a counterfeit coin determined? I see no answer to that (potentially important) question.
The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection.
The ultimate questions are:
1. When a problem comes up, how do they handle it? The written guarantee is only so good as the backer of it.
2. Is that guarantee enough to allow the owner of a PCGS certified counterfeit to sue and win if they are not satisfied with PCGS's settlement offer? Answer is yes, IMO.
<< <i><<Purports? What part of the guarantee is not a guarantee?
If you can sue on it, it ain't illusory, is it?
Since when does a consumer get to determine what, if any, guarantees there are and how they are worded?
Next, they do not have to answer you. At all.>>
Stiffy, under the "guarantee", as written, how is the amount of compensation to the owner of a counterfeit coin determined? I see no answer to that (potentially important) question.
If you were in PCGS's shoes, what exactly extra verbiage do you think would be added?
<< <i>PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity
The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Downgrade Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection.
The ultimate questions are:
1. When a problem comes up, how do they handle it? The written guarantee is only so good as the backer of it.
2. Is that guarantee enough to allow the owner of a PCGS certified counterfeit to sue and win if they are not satisfied with PCGS's settlement offer? Answer is yes, IMO. >>
The wording won't get you there very easily.
It would be nice if, at a minimum, the second sentence read:
"The cash-back policy ensures the AUTHENTICITY AND accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder."
<< <i>
<< <i><<Purports? What part of the guarantee is not a guarantee?
If you can sue on it, it ain't illusory, is it?
Since when does a consumer get to determine what, if any, guarantees there are and how they are worded?
Next, they do not have to answer you. At all.>>
Stiffy, under the "guarantee", as written, how is the amount of compensation to the owner of a counterfeit coin determined? I see no answer to that (potentially important) question.
If you were in PCGS's shoes, what exactly extra verbiage do you think would be added? >>
Perhaps none. But, if I weren't going to add any verbiage, I would at least be willing to explain why to MBT and others who have asked about it. If he hasn't received a response (beyond that a guarantee merely exists), he should, and if he has received a reply, he should be "persuaded" to quit asking repeatedly.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i><<Purports? What part of the guarantee is not a guarantee?
If you can sue on it, it ain't illusory, is it?
Since when does a consumer get to determine what, if any, guarantees there are and how they are worded?
Next, they do not have to answer you. At all.>>
Stiffy, under the "guarantee", as written, how is the amount of compensation to the owner of a counterfeit coin determined? I see no answer to that (potentially important) question.
If you were in PCGS's shoes, what exactly extra verbiage do you think would be added? >>
Perhaps none. But, if I weren't going to add any verbiage, I would at least be willing to explain why to MBT and others who have asked about it. If he hasn't received a response (beyond that a guarantee merely exists), he should, and if he has received a reply, he should be "persuaded" to quit asking repeatedly.
MBT has not received any reply or other communication from PCGS on this subject other that HRH's recent "Yes" post on these boards. That one word statement can hardly be taken as a binding or definitive guaranty issued by PCGS.
It would be nice if, at a minimum, the second sentence read:
"The cash-back policy ensures the AUTHENTICITY AND accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder."
>>>
So, you are saying that as it is, the guarantee of authenticity is not going to hold up in court? Are you saying they can reasonably deny a guarantee exists?
Seriously?
I expect a judge would take judicial notice of the title being a guarantee and the only real substantive issue would then be:
"How much compensation is required?"
What part of that is not binding? You can't say: Guarantee authenticity and then disclaim it, can you?
Is there some new law that you can disclaim a specific warranty of authenticity and then take it back?
Umm, isn't compensation the ONLY question?
IOW, you agree that there IS a guarantee?
Hence my challenge:
THE CHALLENGE IS FOR PCGS TO ADOPT A FORMAL, WRITTEN GUARANTY OF AUTHENTICITY!
<< <i>Give it up, you amorphous blob.
Russ, NCNE >>
42/92
It is on the submission form ->Customer Bill of Rights
if you do not understand guaranteed authentic,
maybe you will learn the meaning of 'bagging on PCGS',
where majorbigtime will no longer be able to participate on these boards
<< <i>
where majorbigtime will no longer be able to participate on these boards >>
If my plug is pulled for pursuing the guaranty issue, you can draw your own conclusions.
Get you ass down to the FUN show or Long Beach show and ask Hall yourself. I have had a few problem coins in PCGS holders, and PCGS has stepped up to the plate every time and made things right!
Maybe you should hang out at the Accugrade fourm and ask AH what type of gaurentee he has!!!
<< <i>A statement on these boards by an individual (HRH) can hardly be deemed to constitued a meaningful guaranty of authenticity by PCGS. In fact, it may only be deemed to constitute one man's opinion.
Hence my challenge:
THE CHALLENGE IS FOR PCGS TO ADOPT A FORMAL, WRITTEN GUARANTY OF AUTHENTICITY! >>
How about you guarantee your legal services, cash back. Make it specific too. Not just guarantee to win every lawsuit, but win big.
Thus not only did they discover the items slabbed prior were spurious, they self admitted it and they purchased them back at current trends. What more evidence does one need of their willingness to do so?
I suspect few individuals took them up on their offer as they have probably turned out to be as valuable if not more either way?
<< <i>What I can't figure out is why so many people seem to be getting upset that we want a specific written guarantee of authenticity? Why do so many people NOT want a guarantee? >>
Great question. My theory is the Kool-aid drinkers take MGT's request as an attack on PCGS.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Give it up, you amorphous blob. >>
Clarify for me please. In this context, is it the rubbery or the glassy state you refer to in your use of amorphous?
<< <i>
<< <i>What I can't figure out is why so many people seem to be getting upset that we want a specific written guarantee of authenticity? Why do so many people NOT want a guarantee? >>
Great question. My theory is the Kool-aid drinkers take MGT's request as an attack on PCGS. >>
MGT's
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>One theory is that MBT has or knows of some PCGS coins of questionable authenticity, and wants to get a "specific guarantee in writing" just so he can "sting" PCGS for lots of money, on some technicality. They're not falling for it, and MBT is getting frustrated. They'll make any legitimate claimant "whole", but have no time or patience for "tricky dicks" >>
MBT: I can debunk that theory--no truth to it at all.
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<< What I can't figure out is why so many people seem to be getting upset that we want a specific written guarantee of authenticity? Why do so many people NOT want a guarantee? >>
Great question. My theory is the Kool-aid drinkers take MGT's request as an attack on PCGS.
MBT: There are a few Kool-aid drinkers here, to be sure. Ever think that I may be trying to help PCGS retain it's status as the No. 1 TPG by bolstering and clarifying the guaranty? Wow, what if it was backed by insurance from Lloyds of London--a dynamite sales booster to be sure!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>MBT: There are a few Kool-aid drinkers here, to be sure. Ever think that I may be trying to help PCGS retain it's status as the No. 1 TPG by bolstering and clarifying the guaranty? Wow, what if it was backed by insurance from Lloyds of London--a dynamite sales booster to be sure! >>
And just why do you think PCGS needs YOUR help to retain/maintain their number one status? If a stated/detailed authenticity guarantee was all that was necessary to accomplish this methinks they woulda/coulda done it long ago on their own. With a 60 day wait time for economy submissions as it is I doubt that sales boosters are very high on their priority list. I'm guessing that you have some other bee in your bonnet that is provoking your constant nagging on this issue.
Most of us are extremely confident that PCGS would/will compensate an honest loss with honest money.
We are also extremely confident that they will strongly resist fraudulent efforts to cheat them.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>They probably don't have a more "meaningful" (i.e. "spelled out exactly") guarantee of authenticity specifically BECAUSE some shyster will try to extract (extort) "what a real one WOULD be worth" rather than "what they paid" (which could possibly be a much lower amount) >>
Nonsense, such an occurance is MUCH more likely to happen with a mis-graded coin than with a counterfeit because grading is much more subjective than authenticity. Yet they do not shy away from specific language in their grading guarantee. (And they get hit with a lot more claims under the grading guarantee than they have coins returned because they are counterfeit.)
<< <i>What I can't figure out is why so many people seem to be getting upset that we want a specific written guarantee of authenticity? Why do so many people NOT want a guarantee? >>
What I can't figure out is that a guy who writes books cannot read well enough to decipher the WRITTEN guarantee for himself and relies on MBT to tell him there isn't a guarantee.
And there is no way to tell how much compensation is required.
Even if they reworded the guarantee to match the grading guarantee, how will that help?
IOW, if you do not like the amount they offer for the grading guarnatee, you have to sue them anyway.
Why not demand a specific breakdown of the grading guarantee since it comes up much more often?
<< <i>What I can't figure out is why so many people seem to be getting upset that we want a specific written guarantee of authenticity? Why do so many people NOT want a guarantee? >>
Who's getting upset?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>If my plug is pulled for pursuing the guaranty issue, you can draw your own conclusions. >>
The logical conclusion would be that PCGS finally tired of the gnat buzzing about, and squished it like the vermin that it is.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>If my plug is pulled for pursuing the guaranty issue, you can draw your own conclusions. >>
The logical conclusion would be that PCGS finally tired of the gnat buzzing about, and squished it like the vermin that it is.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ, I wish that you wouldn't beat around the bush so, and let us know how you really feel.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>What I can't figure out is why so many people seem to be getting upset that we want a specific written guarantee of authenticity? Why do so many people NOT want a guarantee? >>
Who's getting upset? >>
Those board members who are call MBT names? Only a guess.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire