Seller Refuses To Honor BIN Price/Auction
JackWESQ
Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭
I won an auction via a BIN price and immediately paid thereafter via Paypal. Here is the link to the auction:
1991 Upper Deck Jim Thome BGS 10
I then check my email and I see that I received the following message:
"THIS WAS A MISTAKE IN THE LISTING SORRY BUT YOUR NOT GETTING THIS CARD." What a jerk. How does one
accidentally list a BIN price of $29.95 when you actually meant $100.00. The numbers aren't even similar, e.g.
a digit off here or there.
/s/ JackWESQ
1991 Upper Deck Jim Thome BGS 10
I then check my email and I see that I received the following message:
"THIS WAS A MISTAKE IN THE LISTING SORRY BUT YOUR NOT GETTING THIS CARD." What a jerk. How does one
accidentally list a BIN price of $29.95 when you actually meant $100.00. The numbers aren't even similar, e.g.
a digit off here or there.
/s/ JackWESQ
0
Comments
You don't have much recourse except a negative do you?
BTW, how far off is the "real" value of that card if it's not $30???
edited to add: i'm assuming they refunded you when they told you they weren't sending the card?
<< <i>I won an auction via a BIN price and immediately paid thereafter via Paypal. Here is the link to the auction:
1991 Upper Deck Jim Thome BGS 10
I then check my email and I see that I received the following message:
"THIS WAS A MISTAKE IN THE LISTING SORRY BUT YOUR NOT GETTING THIS CARD." What a jerk. How does one
accidentally list a BIN price of $29.95 when you actually meant $100.00. The numbers aren't even similar, e.g.
a digit off here or there.
/s/ JackWESQ >>
Mistakes happen. I would give the seller the benefit of the doubt. This card would sell for, what, 3-4X the BIN Price??
It is likely that the seller's listing price was a "mistake."
It is pretty well settled, on eBay and elsewhere, that a
"mistake" makes the offer to sell avoidable.
I do not think that I would neg him, but I probably would
not buy anything from him based on the tone of his email.
storm
Obviously, he set the BIN price too low. By negging him, that would aid in negatively reinforcing his lazy turbo lister practices.
It seems to me that there is always a review page where you are asked if you really want to submit a bid or a listing.
Letting sellers get away with this only opens the door to abuse of the BIN. Oops.......I should have asked for more!
I feel the same about bid retractions. Don't bid higher than you are willing to pay.
EBay has enough shady characters playing games, be accountable for your bids and listings.
Just my .02
JoeBanzai
<< <i>When are sellers and buyers going to be held accountable for their stupidity/laziness.
It seems to me that there is always a review page where you are asked if you really want to submit a bid or a listing.
Letting sellers get away with this only opens the door to abuse of the BIN. Oops.......I should have asked for more!
I feel the same about bid retractions. Don't bid higher than you are willing to pay.
EBay has enough shady characters playing games, be accountable for your bids and listings.
Just my .02
JoeBanzai >>
I agree - there are numerous failsafes before your auction goes live. If he refused to honor his auction, at minimum, he should have offered to do something to make it right and ALL CAPS RUBS MANY THE WRONG WAY.
non-performance
for example when I list my crap each weds evening.....I click on "Sell similar Item" and the blanks are all filled in already INCLUDING the previous starting bid of the item I am listing a similar item of......
Fortunately I use the same price each week so it doesn't matter.
It's a simple mistake to make.
I know nothing about what the card you won is worth but if it is significantly higher than the 30.00 then it is obviously a mistake....no matter what, the seller's response to you was that of a real tool. He was the one that d icked up, not you.
I can't believe this is the 14th post in this thread---next topic.
<< <i>I can't believe this is the 14th post in this thread---next topic. >>
Carew
Why are you the arbiter?
Last I checked this was a democracy.
But thanx for your concern.
mike
<< <i>"THIS WAS A MISTAKE IN THE LISTING SORRY BUT YOUR NOT GETTING THIS CARD." >>
Jack
The caps and the syntax leaves much to be desired. He could have looked a bit more contrite.
Bottom line? I could pass on buying from the guy.
He must be a "big shot?"
Sorry for the loss - was that a great price?
mike
<< <i>Psastock = j9suited? I believe his name is Mike, and his e-mail responses are very brief. Your best bet is to call him ... "IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FEE FREE TO CONTACT ME AT 619-723-4810". You can't beat his grades though! I don't know how he does it? >>
this is all correct , I have all his info but it is probably inappropriate to post. Like I said , I did a $4-5k deal with him and all his replies to me were short brief 1/2 sentences . it went like this
me: I need 260 a box for the 10 boxes . with a description of the item and history
mike : FINE
mike: ANY OTHERS
me : yes , I have such and such with a paragraph of detail
mike : OK, SEND ME AN INVOICE
doesn't say much but he spends alot of money and has quality stuff
Now if the message had been something like this, I would have been perfectly fine:
Dear X,
I made an error in listing/setting the BIN price at $29.95. As you know, this card regularly sells between X and X. I am sorry, but I will not be able to complete this transaction. Thank you for your understanding.
Sincerely,
X
Now that would have been fine. But his terse language and ALL CAPS was inappropriate. Which leads me to this hypothetical scenario. Suppose you see card X with a BIN price of say, $50.00. You check completed items and/or your own log of completed items and see that card X regularly sells for $100+.
You say to yourself that this looks like a great deal. But wait, the seller might have made a mistake in setting the BIN price. You could "hit" the BIN button and deal with my current problem or you can send the following email to the seller:
Dear X,
I see that you have card X for auction with a BIN of $50.00. The card regularly sells for $100+. Is the BIN correct or is there an error in the listing. Please advise. Thank you.
Sincerely,
/s/ X
Now, after you send this email, here is what could happen:
1. Someone else might have "hit" the BIN price and got a great deal or bought a problem;
2. The seller, realizing that even though he DID NOT make a mistake, informs the buyer he did and changes/cancels the auction.
3. The seller, being honest, informs the buyer the BIN is correct, but by the time you check on the auction, someone else has alreay "hit" the BIN price and got a great deal.
What makes it more difficult is determining the line between getting a great deal and a error in listing, e.g. $1000 card with a BIN price of $100 = Likely an rrror in listing; $1000 card with a BIN $500 = I'm not so sure; $1000 card with a BIN price of $800 = I'm really not so sure.
Of course, I've already acknowledged that I'm not going to receive the card. But then, I could file a lawsuit against him alleging breach of contract requesting specific performance. (I can see myself in Court, but your honor, I need this card because cards graded BGS 10 are really rare. I could subpoena a representative from Beckett to testify.) And for the terse remark, maybe add a cause of action for intentional inflictional of emotional distress. (I could subpoena other buyers to testify as to the seller's prior "bad acts" as evidence of his habitual rudeness and poor customer service.) (I'm still thinking of how to counter his fairly spotless feedback rating).
But, I won't and like so many other buyers, I'll just let the seller slide. In any case, shortly after I received his terse email, I email him requesting a refund. I've yet to receive a refund. Of course, I can't file a claim with paypal and/or ebay until 10 days have passed.
As for the questions regarding how long the auction had been up, I'll address both scenarios, e.g. the auction had been up shortly v. the auction had been up a long time. Presumably, if the auction had been up shortly, the argument would support the position that there had been a mistake in the BIN price. But what if the auction had been up a long time? Suppose buyer after buyer passed on the auction thinking the BIN price was an error in listing. Then a buyer comes along decides to "hit" the BIN price and ends up getting a great deal or buying a problem. I analogize this to those traffic warnings that state, "Avoid X Avenue due to heavy traffic." If EVERY person followed this recommendation, then the ONE person who chose not to follow it would have smooth sailing through X Avenue and would greatly benefit by the warning.
Ending, I thought I would throw in some case law into this post.
In 6 Angels, Inc. v. Stuart-Wright Mortage, Inc. (2001) 85 Cal.App.4th 1279, the Court of Appeal stated:
"Rescission of a contract on the basis of a unilateral mistake is unavailable to a party who assumed the risk of the mistake in entering into the contract. " Id. at 1287. Additionally, "if the inadequacy of price can be connected with or shown to result from any mistake, accident, surprise, misconduct, fraud or irregularity, the sale will generally be vacated, unless the complainant was himself in fault." Id.
What does this mean? It means that seller set the BIN price and if the BIN price was set in error, the seller bears the risk. As such, in 6 Angels, the buyer purchased a parcel of real property worth $144,656 for $10,000.01. The seller had made a clerical error in setting the opening bid at $10,000.00 instead of $100,000.00. Many potential bidder passed until finally a bidder came along and bid $10,000.01. After a trial and appeal, the Court of Appeal refused to rescind the sale. Now that's a deal!
As you can tell by this post, this transaction has really ruffled my feathers. Have a great day.
/s/ JackWESQ
P.S. I still haven't received my refund.
Maybe I should? CCP §116.230 provides a filing fee of $30.00 for small claims less than $1,500.00. The seller is based out of San Diego, just a short jaunt from Orange County for me. I'm know I'll end up expending more time, effort and money than what I will recover, but the immortal words of Howard Beale in the movie Network, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"
/s/ JPW
of certain real-property foreclosures ONLY," and should not be assumed or construed
to apply to any other type(s) of commercial transactions.
".......The public policy underlying the comprehensive framework governing foreclosure
sales is a concern for swift, efficient, and final sales. (Moeller v. Lien, supra,
25 Cal.App.4th at pp. 830, 832.)"
The 6-Angels decision was made in support of the California statute governing
"non-judicial foreclosures." There are good reasons that the statute must be
strictly-construed and upheld in 6-Angels, but they do not appear to apply to
seller-revoked sales of unencumbered collectibles on eBay.
The case can be googled, or you can see some of the initial filings at FINDLAW.
My California lawyer further says that there may be UCC elements that
support potential recovery by such a defaulted-upon eBay BIN buyer, but he
doubts it.
My non-legal view is that eBay recognizes the possibility of mistakes and provides a
seller's remedy for such mistakes. (END ITEM NOW). If the card was only listed for a
short-time before it was BINd, the seller's argument of excusable neglect is probably
a powerful one.
My guess is that if someone shared this thread with the subject seller, he would
probably apologize for his "terse email."
If I was involved in the deal, I would consult an attorney before I spent my time
and mental energy on a lawsuit.
This thread should illustrate to sellers how important it is to "take the time" to
check prices before hitting the submit-listing tab.
storm
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/antitrustprof_blog/2006/06/class_action_ag.html
There is a hearing this Monday, June 19, 2006, to determine the most effective way to inform all members of the class of the lawsuit and likely their decision to opt in/opt out of the class. Since the class has been certified, I would not be surprised if there is a settlement prior to the September 12, 2006 trial date.
/s/ JackWESQ
Quick to let you know that YOUR NOT GETTING THE CARD!
But slow on the refund?
Not KOOL.
mike
1957 Topps PSA
1961 Fleer SGC
Technically speaking, if my house is on fire and I have a "keep of the grass" sign posted in my front yard, I would expect someone to "bend the rules" and cut through my yard to save me.
It all comes down to intent.
Now............, since you showed him honor, and he has not reciprocated by paying your refund, you might think in terms of holding him to the sale.
-Scott
1977 Topps Star Wars - "Space Swashbucklers"
I look at it this way. The originator of this thread waited less than 2 hours to run and post this on the message board, without working out the issue with the seller. Now there are posts about small claims court, never bidding on this sellers items (good news, less competition), and disparaging remarks about his ethics, his spelling abaility and reputation. All over a small mistake. Someone once said "he who has not sinned, cast the first stone". Maybe we should all work out our issues before airing dirty laundry.
-Scott
1977 Topps Star Wars - "Space Swashbucklers"
Again I would have already filed with Paypal.
nothing "evil" in this instance. But, it takes about the same
amount of time to issue a PayPal refund as it does to send
a separate email. In fact, the refund receipt has a space on
it for a "message."
It is easy to get busy and "seem terse" via email. I try to
make my emails "less direct," but sometimes they are still taken
wrong.
I might or might not have cancelled the sale, if I was the seller.
If I did cancel the sale, I would have issued the refund immediately.
(As I said from the get-go, the seller, IMO, rightfully "had the option" of
cancelling.)
Fabfrank makes a good point about the lynch-mob mentality that can
suck most all of us in from time to time.
My grandmother used to always tell me the line: "I felt sorry for myself
because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet." Neither
the cancelled BIN, nor our discussion of it is the end of the world.
storm
Actually according to Ebay the seller does not have this option. I would file both with Paypal and slap the seller with a Non-Selling Seller complaint with Ebay. How much you want to bet that the seller is going to try to file a UPI on the buyer once he finally does refund.
If the buyer had made the mistake the seller would be expected to keep his end of the deal the seller is no different in this case. He made the mistake and needs to live with it.
I had a problem with BECKETTSUCKS here on this board when I won some of his auctions and he said the price was too low and refused to send the cards.
That is excatly what this seller has done..
on the grounds of "a mistake in the listing."
The seller's contention is likely that he did not have time to check/cancel
the item post-listing because someone "sharpshot my mistake" within
moments of the lsiting.
There was clearly no meeting of the minds on this transaction, according
to the seller. His immediate post-sale conduct supports that he is "telling
the truth" about having "made a mistake." His relisting of the item, also
defends against any allegation that he "sold it to somebody else for more
money prior to the BIN transaction."
In the bricks and mortar store-world, mis-marked items can be corrected
at the register. Online, we have a whole new set of circumstances. In
either type of venue, a meeting of the minds is required to form the
contract; the buyer acted in good faith, the seller will claim to have done
so, too - thus, the controversy.
Newspaper ads from big retailers often disclaim "listing errors," and WalMart
will not sell me the $299.00 i-Pod, for $29.99, even though the ad
proclaims that the price is $29.99. Maybe eBay's BIN sellers should start
using such disclaimers, and maybe eBay should address the issue more
directly in its written TOS/policies.
storm
Seller made the mistake and Seller should honor his/her mistake...
That is a "customer relations decision." In your case, IMO, Sears made
the right decision. But, if they wanted to endure a bunch of angry folks,
they could have taken the position that the seller in this thread took.
storm
I agree with Frank about not rushing to judgement on whether one should buy from this guy.
I don't sell on ebay - but even if I'm busy as all get out, I owe people some small amount of politeness - which is a hallmark of good business - the way he phrased the retraction of the transaction - caps notwithstanding - leaves something to be desired.
The speed of the judgement, the timing of the buy, the speed of the reneg etc. are, for me, not as interesting as the phrasing of the note.
Soap box: every day it seems we are losing a little more of our civility and that's disappointing.
I have endured way more insults in business in the last few years - it seems it's on the rise.
Of soap box.
Good points Frank
mike
If they are caught before the customer tries to buy the item. Otherwise it can be seen as a bait and switch tactic and if it happens over and over could get them in serious trouble.
I would contact seller and request some kind of discount on a future purchase, free shipping and $10 on a card over $50, $20 on a card over $100 etc etc
As a buyer, if I win an auction at a steal buy it now price, and the seller emails and tells me that he made a mistake.......I can honestly say that I would let him off the hook.
As a seller, If I make a mistake in listing an item with a crazy low buy it now price, I would email the buyer and tell him that since I made a mistake in my listing I won't honor the buy it now price.
The bottom line is....
I can care less if the buyer undersatnds or not, but I will not let someone take advantage of my mistake.
Rich
What would you do if the buyer refused to drop it and decided to take you to small claims court?? I guarantee if you were selling and the buyer emailed you after winning that they decided they did not want it that you would file a UPI and neg the buyer. It is a 2 way street.
If a seller did that to me first I would pay, then when they refused to honor it I would file a NSS on the seller. Those act just like UPI strikes for buyers too many of them and you will be suspended.
When an auction you have up ends you are in a legally binding contract to complete the transaction. No way I would let the seller off the hook. It is you, the sellers, responsibility to make sure your items are listed correctly.
File the Non-selling seller complaint and leave the proper feedback do not go away without a fight. Try pulling contact info if nobody answers phone or it goes to an answering service file a complaint for invalid contact info. Hit this seller with everything you can.
About the boy who purchased a Nolan Ryan RC? The guy left his wife behind the counter for a few hours and a kid comes in and enquires about the card.
She looks at the price - not realizing it was $1600 - she charged him 16 bucks!!!
When the guy came back he had a major stroke!
I don't remember the details but he took the family to court to get his card back. If I remember correctly the judge would not make them return the card outright - but said they should sell the card and split the proceeds or something like that?
Does anyone remember?
Now that's a deal gone sour!
mike
I totally understand about the binding contract stuff you are talking about. However, if a buyer won't let me off the hook for making a mistake, then I the seller will also put up a fight. If the buyer wants to take me to small claims court....more power to him. However, I'll put up the best fight that I can and attempt to make the buyer spend more money in court fees than the item is worth. Plus, I would not hesitate to leave the buyer negative feedback because he was "not understanding, and hard to deal with".
Like I said before, mistake or not, I won't allow someone to take advantage of me.
Rich
BTW if you are taken to small claims court and lose you can be forced to pay all the winners associated fees so if you lose which you most likely would.