Ethics of pulled auctions

JDelage · May 17, 2006 1:47AM

What is your take on auctions on eBay that are pulled before they end?

Cladiator · May 17, 2006 1:51AM

I find it annoying. It feems to happen to coins that I'm watching on a fomewhat regular bafis.

poorguy · May 17, 2006 1:53AM

Depends on why it was pulled.

If it was a fake coin then I think it is completely ethical and should be cracked down on harder by eBay to pull more fraudulent listings.

If it was for some lame listing violation of a legitimate item, it is completely annoying and completely arrogant on eBay's part.

Russ · May 17, 2006 1:56AM

<< If it was a fake coin then I think it is completely ethical and should be cracked down on harder by eBay to pull more fraudulent listings.

If it was for some lame listing violation of a legitimate item, it is completely annoying and completely arrogant on eBay's part. >>

I think he's talking about sellers voluntarily pulling auctions.

Russ, NCNE

Cladiator · May 17, 2006 1:56AM

Hm, I read the OP different than Poorguy did I think. I firft thought of auctions that fellers cancel prematurely themfelves. You fee this when a rare coin is up for auction and the feller doefn't know it's rare. Some people will contact the feller in an attempt to buy the coin outright and circumvent the auction procefs. Alfo circumventing any competition and ufually getting the coin for a very, very good price. This practice is what annoys me.

BECOKA · May 17, 2006 1:59AM

It usually happens when a seller realizes the bid price is staying low and he/she chickens out at the last minute and pulls it in fear of losing his/her shirt. I remember a seller that did this on a regular basis and got kicked off of e-bay for doing it too often.

PerryHall · May 17, 2006 2:02AM

<< It usually happens when a seller realizes the bid price is staying low and he/she chickens out at the last minute and pulls it in fear of losing his/her shirt. I remember a seller that did this on a regular basis and got kicked off of e-bay for doing it too often. >>

This isn't the only reason but it does appear to be the predominant reason.

JadeRareCoin · May 17, 2006 2:05AM

Pathetic. One of the many things wrong with eBay. I think that eBay should list how many times a seller has ended an auction early......right next to their feedback. Just like they do with bid retractions.

RBinTex · May 17, 2006 2:11AM

I think that sellers that pactice auction cancellation when the price doesn't seem high enough (by some self-deluded point in time) AND as a way of reserve fee avoidance are both pu**ies AND dishonest.

flaminio · May 17, 2006 2:16AM

<< What is your take on auctions on eBay that are pulled before they end? >>

It annoys me, but I don't lose any sleep over it. Since eBay allows it, it's within the seller's right to do so.

BECOKA · May 17, 2006 2:18AM

<< 

<< What is your take on auctions on eBay that are pulled before they end? >>

It annoys me, but I don't lose any sleep over it. Since eBay allows it, it's within the seller's right to do so. >>

I agree. It's an auction and my life should not revolve solely based on what I get from this. So just leave it to a disappointment.

JDelage · May 17, 2006 3:33AM

Thanks. I have 3 bullion coins that I'm selling based on the premice that gold was materially above $700. With gold trending lower, I'm pondering whether to just let it run its course or pulling it. We'll see...

2bucks · May 17, 2006 3:42AM

<< Thanks. I have 3 bullion coins that I'm selling based on the premice that gold was materially above $700. With gold trending lower, I'm pondering whether to just let it run its course or pulling it. We'll see... >>

Hope it's not a board member who's bidding on your auctions if you pull it. Especially after advertising on the BST.

flaminio · May 17, 2006 3:50AM

<< Thanks. I have 3 bullion coins that I'm selling based on the premice that gold was materially above $700. With gold trending lower, I'm pondering whether to just let it run its course or pulling it. We'll see... >>

Maybe gold's going back to $500? Or $400? Who can say? Perhaps your future self will consider your present self prescient for selling now...

291fifth · May 17, 2006 3:52AM

There are valid reasons for pulling an auction. What I call "bid fishing," in which a bidder places a very high bid in order to see what his competitor's high bid is, and then quickly withdraws his bid, is one reason. Another reason involves the withdrawal of a bid late in the auction that causes the price to plummet after most of the watchers have probably lost interest due to the expected high realization.

The sellers are not running a charity. If bad bidder behavior is affecting an auction they have every right to cancel the auction.

TorinoCobra71 · May 17, 2006 4:00AM

Only If I am bidding on it!

TC71

TwoSides2aCoin · May 17, 2006 4:03AM

I pulled an auction recently when I was notified via email that I had to approve a bidder who has previously bid on items of mine. I had about five rolls of Roosevelts up, and it was easier to just end it, than to lose money because I did something in my preferences that blocked bidders, rather caused them to be PRE APPROVED for bidding

. ( lending credence to the old cliche : "if it ain't broke, don't fix it).

sorry if it affected anyone here. Some things aren't born of ETHICS, rather products of Stupidity
...in the old days it wasn't called pulling an auction, it was called "pulling a boner"

<-----guilty of the latter, sometimes

nencoin · May 17, 2006 4:20AM

I see no problem with ending auctions early if there are no bids. We have our coins listed via multiple venues, such as our website, Coin World, Numismatic News, etc. If we get an order for a coin that is on eBay, we'll end the eBay auction if there are no bids. If there are bids, then we'll simply refer the customer who wanted to order the coin to eBay and have them bid on it there. If eBay did not allow sellers to end auctions early (those with no bids), then there would be much fewer coins listed on eBay. We can't afford to tie up inventory for ten days while it sits on eBay.

Having said that, I think it's wrong to end an auction that has bids (we've never done it), just as I think it's wrong to allow bidders to retract their bids. But I'm sure eBay will continue to let it happen.

Chris

walkerman · May 17, 2006 4:32AM

Bad bidder behavior is rarely mentioned on this forum. Sellers have every right to protect themselves from ruin without acceding to ebay's outrageous reserve fees. A small loss is to be accepted and expected as part of the game. But when a $4000 coin lies there for five days with no action whatsoever after the 29th bid reaches $212.35 who is there who would not "chicken out" with only 12 hours left and the seller has to do it or get off the pot. The very same voices who bash ebay at every chance seem to be the first to be shocked-- shocked I tell you, to find some unsavory seller is trying to avoid their pal ebay's reserve fees. Is that hypocracy or what? I hear the complaint that "I was going to snipe that coin for $5000". Well, unless there are two snipers he will still win the coin for $222.35. Unless a seller pays the reserve fee or sells his coins at fixed price(as I do) he can't protect himself from the bottom feeders who really don't want to buy a quality coin for a legitimate market price but are cruising ebay hoping to rip whatever they can. It seems like most of their activity is confined to bidding with the hucksters hyping "third world" slabs that "trend" for $15,000 and repeatedly sell for $600 hoping of course that they will find a gift and that maybe just maybe the huckster seller didn't really realize that that the coin really is a ms 68 and not actually a cleaned ms 60. Sellers like myself and most of the legitimate dealers on this forum and many who are not will probably never get "shooting stars" for selling tons of crap in suspect holders as the "bargain hunters" seemingly would rather invest their money in gambling in lieu of quality acquisitions at a fair market value. Well that's my rant for the day. Just thought it would be great to lay out the dealers position for a change.

RBinTex · May 17, 2006 5:29AM

"Is that hypocracy or what?"

How about your agreement with eBay's terms? Do you regularly agree to terms of a contract (or accede to conditions placed upon you by a service provider) & then disregard what you agreed to?

It clearly states in eBay's rules that a seller can't cancel auctions as a means of simulating a reserve.

LINK

A seller is not permitted to misuse the Reserve price feature. Misuse includes:
Stating the reserve price of the item when the item has not been listed using the reserve price feature.
Stating that the high bidder is obligated to purchase the item even if the reserve price has not been met.
Canceling bids and ending a listing early because the seller's desired price has not been met to avoid reserve fees.

Reserve Fee Avoidance - Canceling bids and ending a listing early because the seller's desired price has not been met. Sellers who do not want to sell an item below a certain price should use the reserve price option or set their starting price at the minimum price they are willing to accept. Please see the complete

LINK

Note: Sellers are not permitted to cancel bids and end listings early in order to avoid selling an item that did not meet the desired sale price. This is considered to be reserve fee circumvention. Although there are legitimate reasons for ending a listing early, abuse of this option will be investigated.

In short, & to directly respond to the title of the thread, sellers that practice this policy have no ethics (or b*lls).

Boom · May 17, 2006 5:38AM

Hey Walkerman,

Try using the ENTER key. It works wonders, particularly when you hit it twice.

I've seen more than one seller get nervous and pull his/ her auction WITH BIDS ON IT and with plenty time to go. To them I say, either start your item at a higher price if you are trying to avoid the ridiculously high reserve fees which I too try to work around and you cannot bear the STRESS.

It costs too much to list that way and besides bargain hunters will shy away from such listings. Just start your listing at the very least you will accept.

Granted, sellers must protect their investments one way or another. Starting a high priced item at 99 cents and letting it rip is definitely NOT for the faint of Heart.

It's best, when selling, that you list it, forget it and get away from the computer. I MUST SAY that I truly admire sellers like Russ that DO start them at 99 cents and let the item sell itself.

I've tried it on several occassions and it's insufferable.

The very nature of buying and bidding has changed a lot in the last 3 years. Seems a lot of people entrust their eBay account's password to a sniping service. I DON'T!

I recall when people went at it toe to toe right out the blocks on day one of a seven day auction. From a buyer's perspective, this is totally ridiculous as you/ they only manage to drive the price ever upward. Conversely, from a seller's perspective it's great when this transpires.

Doesn't it make sense to buy for as little as possible? Thus the bidder that has remained totally silent comes out of nowhere within the last few seconds, snatches and grabs thereby leaving everyone else looking like they've been robbed.

As for the bid fishing and backing out, I've seen some very well respected people around here do this on more than one occassion and personally find it unacceptable because it totally ruins a seller's auction AND under this premise the seller should be able to have some recourse and yank his item.

I've personally witnessed (as probably most here have) an item go up hundreds of dollars all in the final 3 seconds. This is truly incredible to behold and definitely enough to give ANY seller Heart failure.

Boom · May 17, 2006 5:43AM

<< A seller is not permitted to misuse the Reserve price feature. Misuse includes: >>

True but amusing because Ole Vern, FinderskeepersofOmaha, would mention his reserve within each and every item's description (When he would sell so-called original, unsearched Bank rolls) Unsearched, my foot.

and got away with it for a loooooooooooooooonnnnnnngggggggggg time.

Cladiator · May 17, 2006 5:43AM

<< Hey Walkerman,

Try using the ENTER key. It works wonders, particularly when you hit it twice. >>

Boom · May 17, 2006 5:47AM

<< Try using the ENTER key. It works wonders, particularly when you hit it twice. >> >>

I'm laughing at myself as well because I remember quite well when I discovered the Power of the ENTER key.

RBinTex · May 17, 2006 5:47AM

"I think it's wrong to allow bidders to retract their bids."

There are reasons & times it is appropriate (as per eBay) but at least eBay doesn't allow this within the last 12 hours of an auction. If they imposed the same time constraints on sellers there be a new term "coined" - "the 13th hour jitters"

NoGvmnt · May 17, 2006 5:50AM

It feems to happen to coins that I'm watching on a fomewhat regular bafis.

Shouldn't that be; feemf, coinf, and bafif?

Jim

Boom · May 17, 2006 5:53AM

<< "I think it's wrong to allow bidders to retract their bids." >>

I agree. I do too unless it REALLY is an honest mistake. I also recall one day being involved in an auction and the exterminator distracted me.

I totally entered the wrong amount with about a minute left to go in the auction. It seems I didn't hit the . key hard enough and my bid was like$250000 instead of $ 2500.00. Man I like to have come unglued and got EXTREMELY lucky. !

walkerman · May 17, 2006 6:28AM

I used to list auctions on ebay before they started charging the reserve auction fee. I didn't agree to those terms at all they were just arbitrarily forced on us as ebay can change the rules anytime they choose.
When they started charging this reserve fee and I began losing money either by paying reserve on all my unsold items or listing with no reserve and selling them for less than cost. Something had to change. I now only sell at fixed price and mostly from my ebay store where the fee is only 33 cents per month plus final value fees only on items that are sold.
As I stated before with the kind of volume this generates, I will never get a shooting star. From what I can see, the sellers of coins like generic gold Saints and common date walkers and Morgans don't have a problem with true auctions. Everyone knows the price and the sniper who bids $10 or so more at the end can wind up with the coin for around greysheet bid. With dozens of bidders jockeying for position on coins they feel comfortable with, it's hard to buy them for much less.
The scenario changes when a seller lists a rare, more expensive coin. This brings out the sharks who smell a chance for a killing. Some time ago at a major show, while sitting in a stall in the men's room, taking care of business, I actually overheard two guys talking about not bidding against each other on someones ebay auction. They agreed that each would bid only on one of two coins. When business men do this I believe it's called collusion.
I decided then and there that I would no longer expose my coins to this kind of activity. Now instead of sweating out auctions all I have to put up with is emails with ridiculous offers.

Cladiator · May 17, 2006 6:36AM

<< It feems to happen to coins that I'm watching on a fomewhat regular bafis.

Shouldn't that be; feemf, coinf, and bafif?

Jim >>

Jim,

If the "s" is the laft letter in a word then it remains an "s".

RGT · May 17, 2006 7:24AM

<< There are valid reasons for pulling an auction. What I call "bid fishing," in which a bidder places a very high bid in order to see what his competitor's high bid is, and then quickly withdraws his bid, is one reason. Another reason involves the withdrawal of a bid late in the auction that causes the price to plummet after most of the watchers have probably lost interest due to the expected high realization. The sellers are not running a charity. If bad bidder behavior is affecting an auction they have every right to cancel the auction. >>

I cancelled an auction for the very first time last Sunday for this very reason. The coin had been bid up to $228.50 for five days when Frank got NARU'd about 24 hours before my auction ended. He wasn't the high bidder but the second high bidder and the bid dropped to $99. Now all the watchers knew they would have to bid at least $231 to have a chance even though it sat at $99. Anyone who might have been in at the $200 level had already passed it up in the preceeding days. I waited until a bit more than 12 hours left and saw no further bidding so I cancelled it.

I may have done ok if I had left it going, but I may have given it away. If Frank had not bid at all and the coin sat at $99 all week I would have let it ride, expecting a lot of last minute activity. As it was I feel like ebay had run auction interference on me and screwed me over.

I had the coin posted on the BST so I appologize to anyone here who was still watching. I may list it again at some point.

2bucks · May 18, 2006 9:28AM

<< What is your take on auctions on eBay that are pulled before they end? >>

So you decided to pull your auctions early after all? I'm curious why? Very unethical imo.

sinin1 · May 18, 2006 9:35AM

I remember one seller who had some software - would cancel all bids and close auction in last 5 seconds (I am assuming if not high enough bid)

some of these auctions had over 20 bids

Bochiman · May 18, 2006 9:48AM

<< 

<< There are valid reasons for pulling an auction. What I call "bid fishing," in which a bidder places a very high bid in order to see what his competitor's high bid is, and then quickly withdraws his bid, is one reason. Another reason involves the withdrawal of a bid late in the auction that causes the price to plummet after most of the watchers have probably lost interest due to the expected high realization. The sellers are not running a charity. If bad bidder behavior is affecting an auction they have every right to cancel the auction. >>

I cancelled an auction for the very first time last Sunday for this very reason. The coin had been bid up to $228.50 for five days when Frank got NARU'd about 24 hours before my auction ended. He wasn't the high bidder but the second high bidder and the bid dropped to $99. Now all the watchers knew they would have to bid at least $231 to have a chance even though it sat at $99. Anyone who might have been in at the $200 level had already passed it up in the preceeding days. I waited until a bit more than 12 hours left and saw no further bidding so I cancelled it.

I may have done ok if I had left it going, but I may have given it away. If Frank had not bid at all and the coin sat at $99 all week I would have let it ride, expecting a lot of last minute activity. As it was I feel like ebay had run auction interference on me and screwed me over.

I had the coin posted on the BST so I appologize to anyone here who was still watching. I may list it again at some point. >>

Yeah....personally, I know that coin may have had a snipe bid waiting but it can't go off on a pulled auction.....

JDelage · May 18, 2006 10:12AM

<< So you decided to pull your auctions early after all? I'm curious why? Very unethical imo.

>>

Fair criticism. That was a learning experience - I'll use the reserve price and a 1 or 3 day auction next time I want to sell bullion. Basically, the decision to sell was incumbant on a $700+ price. If the price had been in the 690's, I would have left the auctions run, but at $680, I don't have any reason to sell.

I apologize to anyone my actions might have pissed off.

RYK · May 18, 2006 10:20AM

You would probably be a lot better off selling gold bullion to a bullion dealer, like American Gold Exchange, when bullion hits your price target. They will lock in the price by phone, and you will not have to pay the 5% + frictional costs associated with ebay transactions.

JDelage · May 18, 2006 10:27AM

RYK - that's crossed my mind. Ebay has been pretty good for me to sell collectable coins that I went to it naturally. As I said, this was a learning experience, and I wouldn't do it this way now.

RGT · May 18, 2006 1:36PM

<< 

<< I cancelled an auction for the very first time last Sunday for this very reason. The coin had been bid up to $228.50 for five days when Frank got NARU'd about 24 hours before my auction ended. He wasn't the high bidder but the second high bidder and the bid dropped to $99. Now all the watchers knew they would have to bid at least $231 to have a chance even though it sat at $99. Anyone who might have been in at the $200 level had already passed it up in the preceeding days. I waited until a bit more than 12 hours left and saw no further bidding so I cancelled it. I may have done ok if I had left it going, but I may have given it away. If Frank had not bid at all and the coin sat at $99 all week I would have let it ride, expecting a lot of last minute activity. As it was I feel like ebay had run auction interference on me and screwed me over. I had the coin posted on the BST so I appologize to anyone here who was still watching. I may list it again at some point. >>

Yeah....personally, I know that coin may have had a snipe bid waiting but it can't go off on a pulled auction..... >>

Yes, the more I think about it the more I wish I just let it go. Now I'm afraid there will be some hard feelings from my previous watchers if I list it again. I've had auctions pulled on me before and I didn't much care for it. It was much worse back when the seller could pull it with just seconds to go.

By the way, I contacted the high bidder at the time I closed it and apologized for pulling it. I then offered to sell it to them outright and would have taken less than the $228.50 it was at when I closed it, but I never heard back from them. Then I had someone contact me about it the next day asking if it was still available. I explained what happened and offered it to them to and got no reply again. So, I've alienated all my top bidders.

doughmaking · May 18, 2006 2:53PM

Why pull it early if you dont get the price???? You can set the starting bid for whatever you want?? and if you dont get it you dont get it......I have only pulled 3 things off, and thats because someone stole them from my car, which i left on the seat stupid me......

BAJJERFAN · May 18, 2006 9:54PM

<< Reserve Fee Avoidance - Canceling bids and ending a listing early because the seller's desired price has not been met. Sellers who do not want to sell an item below a certain price should use the reserve price option or set their starting price at the minimum price they are willing to accept. Please see the complete >>

TOO BAD EFFEEN eBay makes it financially unattractive to use either of these options. After all no one is listing there to sell at a loss. There ought to be one fee whether you start at 1 cent $1000 or have a reserve. They don't make much if your stuff doesn't sell.

When/if I list there I don't necessarily look at it as garage sale-ing but I would at least like to break even on the deal/item.

Ethics of pulled auctions

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