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Question for early copper collectors- "classic heads"

rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
Many time on these boards, we have stated that it is difficult to find nice Classic Head large cents (1808-1814) because the planchets used to produce these coins were made of nearly pure copper, and they were subject to corrosion and other problems. However, if you look at the half cents from 1808-1810, you will see that many nice examples are available (especially 1809) without corrosion, on seemingly nice planchets. 1811 half cents would be an exception. Why is it that the 1808-1810 half cents are found so much nicer? I suppose that they saw less circulation, but it seems that they should have been made out of the same copper as the large cents of the era, and therefore would be subject to the same planchet problems. Does anyone have a logical explanation for the abundance of nicer half cents? Were they made from a different batch of copper?

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    LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,756 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I believe we were purchasing our cent planchettes from a company in England, I don't know if it was the same with the half cent planchettes or not.

    That may have played a difference in the problems.
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    MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,192 ✭✭✭✭
    I have both noticed this and asked the same question as you, never hearing a satisfying answer. I'm very interested in any answer which might be given...Mike
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
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    BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,538 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A copper dealer told me that we were purchasing our cent planchets from England (as LanLord stated). The reason that became a problem, to the best of my recollection of the story:

    The planchets were stored in large kegs for the journey across the Atlantic. Because of their size and convenient weight, these kegs of copper planchets were typically stored in the lowest part of the ship to serve as ballast. Often, a ship would not offload any or all of the kegs (instead, offloading other cargo stored higher up on the ship) after just one trip from England to the US. If the ship captain needed the kegs for ballast, they were kept a while longer for another journey across the ocean or in the Carribean. So finally -- maybe after many months, or in some cases years? -- the kegs get delivered. They have been exposed to a tough environment for a long time, right? Well, the mint didn't have any first in, first out or just in time delivery policies back then, so the kegs would sit in storage at the mint until ready for use (prolonging the corrosion). Further, since these kegs were heavy and nobody would want to move them around to use "the old ones" before using "the new ones" it was quite likely that some kegs sat in storage for a few years at the back of the heap before being pulled out for minting.

    I don't know if this rings true with specialists in the field, but it sure sounded plausible to me.
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    Conder101Conder101 Posts: 10,536 ✭
    The mint was purchasing MOST of their copper blanks from Matthew Boulton. They also purchased some of their blanks from a second English firm whose name escapes me at the moment, and a domestic supplier, Coulton Bros, whose product was completely unacceptable. I'm not sure why the cent planchets from Boulton changed so much during the 1808-14 period. I don't believe it would be because of multiple trips back and forth across the ocean in the ships bildge. The Mint was usually desperate for their planchets to arrive and if the governement had found out that the ships captains weren't unloading them and just keeping them to use for ballast, heads would have rolled. Besides they made their money by carrying cargo. They would have wanted the room for cargo going back to England. If they needed ballast there are these things called rocks. Now that isn't to say that the casks didn't stay in the bildge a long time. They would have been the first thing loaded on the ship, and they would have stayed there untill the ship had a full cargo load. Then they would have been the last thing unloaded once they finally got here.

    As to why the half cent planchets from 1808-1810 were so much nicer than the cents from that era, I think the answer would probably be found by examining the delivery records for the blanks. Mintages for the half cents were much lower than that of the cents and a shipment of planchets tended to last much longer. I don't believe there were any deliveries of planchets during that period, and all of the half cents struck were from a shipment that was recieved back in 1806 or 07 when the planchets were still of the hard smooth variety. The Breen half cent book would be the place to check on this. He does list the delivery dates for the planchets.
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    rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Conder,

    Thanks- the idea of an earlier batch of planchets being used for half cents makes sense to me. Perhaps if that old copper stock from 1806-7 had already been cut into blank planchets for half cents, which were in storage, that might explain why the same copper was not used for large cent production. Does that idea sound plausible?
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    Conder101Conder101 Posts: 10,536 ✭
    Did some shecking on the deliveries of planchets from Boulton & Watt. Now the Mint ordered planchets from B&W in the proper size and ready for coinage. I have not been able to locate information on the delivery used starting in 1806. (A delivery of just under a million planchets in 1803 was used through the 1805 mintage. Some time in 1805 they received another delivery of these quality B&W planchets. I don't know how many, but they ran out in Sept of 1807. In August of 1807 another 5 tons of quality half cent planchets, some 933,000 pieces, arrived. These were not put into production until June of 1808. That would have been enough to strike all of the 1808's and half of the 1809's. There seems to be another delivery of planchets, probably in early 1808 and it lasted through the end of the half cents in 1811.

    Trying to reconstruct the deliveries from the information in Breen is a bit difficult as his descriptions of usage and times when planchets ran out etc are conflicting. But it does look like the idea that the Mint had a large stockpile of quality planchets that lasted them through the "bad copper" years of 1808 -1814 is probably the answer.
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    rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Conder,

    I'm impressed that you even knew where to look for information like this... and I do think you nailed it. Most of the really nice half cents of the era that I see are high grade 1808 or 1809 coins. This all makes total sense now. I wish I could say the same for the 1808-1809 large cents- those poor ugly dogs. They usually have more pits & craters than the surface of the moon.
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    michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭✭
    imageimage
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    SamByrdSamByrd Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭✭
    This post was great, I have often thought why one can get half cents so easily from the period and the large cents so tough, very good information.

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