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All-Time WR Set Addition Request (Harold Jackson)
shagrotn77
Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭✭
Calling all All-Time WR set registrants. I recently made a request to have Harold Jackson's 1970 Topps rookie card added to the set. You should be getting an e-mail from Cosetta shortly. Simply put, the man belongs in the set. Hopefully most of you will agree. Here's some of the highlights of his career:
* Led the NFL in receiving yards twice (in 1969 as a rookie and then again in 1972)
* Finished third in the NFL in receiving yards in 1973, and also had top 10 finishes in 1975 and 1979 for a total of 5
* Was named to 5 Pro Bowls
* 10,372 career receiving yards was first in NFL history and second overall only to Don Maynard when he retired!
Of note is that Harold Jackson is the only WR to lead the NFL in receiving yards more than once who is not in the set. He’s 21st all-time in receiving yards despite playing nearly his entire career with a 14-game schedule. Everyone above him other than Maynard played with mostly 16 game schedules. Jackson’s statistics are far superior to some players already in the set. The only knock against him as far as I can see, and why he (undeservedly so) is not in the Hall of Fame is that he didn't play for winning teams. But a lot of other really good players had that misfortune too. Lastly, Jackson is the ONLY retired player with more than 10,000 career yards who played prior to the 16-game schedule not in the set. Hopefully I've made a good case for Action Jackson
* Led the NFL in receiving yards twice (in 1969 as a rookie and then again in 1972)
* Finished third in the NFL in receiving yards in 1973, and also had top 10 finishes in 1975 and 1979 for a total of 5
* Was named to 5 Pro Bowls
* 10,372 career receiving yards was first in NFL history and second overall only to Don Maynard when he retired!
Of note is that Harold Jackson is the only WR to lead the NFL in receiving yards more than once who is not in the set. He’s 21st all-time in receiving yards despite playing nearly his entire career with a 14-game schedule. Everyone above him other than Maynard played with mostly 16 game schedules. Jackson’s statistics are far superior to some players already in the set. The only knock against him as far as I can see, and why he (undeservedly so) is not in the Hall of Fame is that he didn't play for winning teams. But a lot of other really good players had that misfortune too. Lastly, Jackson is the ONLY retired player with more than 10,000 career yards who played prior to the 16-game schedule not in the set. Hopefully I've made a good case for Action Jackson
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
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1948 Bowman #63 Pete Pihos
1957 Topps #124 Tommy McDonald
1959 Topps #140 Bobby Mitchell
1965 Philadelphia #195 Charley Taylor
Scott
T-205 Gold PSA 4 & up
1967 Topps BB PSA 8 & up
1975 Topps BB PSA 9 & up
1959 Topps FB PSA 8 & up
1976 Topps FB PSA 9 & up
1981 Topps FB PSA 10
1976-77 Topps BK PSA 9 & up
1988-89 Fleer BK PSA 10
3,000 Hit Club RC PSA 5 & Up
My Sets
Here's the problem i have with adding Jackson. I agree he was a fine WR, but no where near one of the all-time greats. To add him, would mean MANY MANY others who were better would need to be added..
How about Pete Pihos??? 6 time pro Bowler, 6 times he was voted first team All-NFL in 9 seasons...Elected to the HOF...Played in 3 championship games..
How about Cliff Branch?? Played 12 seasons in the same years as Harold jackson..Was elected to one less Pro Bowl, but was chosen first team All-NFL more times than Jackson, and in all 4 of Branches All-NFL selections was chosen OVER Jackson at the same position...
How about Drew Pearson??Another guy who played around the same time as Jackson and gets at least nominated for the HOF every year...
10,000 yards---Gary Clark?Randy Moss? Or Terrell Owens? Rod Smith? Kennan McCardell?Stanley Morgan (played WITH Harold Jackson), Andre Rison
There are 2 types of players on the All-Time WR set..You have dominant guys, and you have numbers guys...800 receptions and 12000 yds makes you a numbers guy..Isaac Bruce, Henry Ellard, Irving Fryar...Guys who are on the top 20 all-time leader board...10,000 is great, but i think he misses on the numbers part...
The dominant guys were guys who were DOMINANT during their era...He led the league in receiving a couple of times, but wasn't dominant for a long enough period of time in my opinion. He played 16 years and in 208 games, so he basically averaged 3 catches/50 yards per game played. Sorry, but no way that merits inclusion to this set.
By comparison, Ahmad Rashad averaged 4 catches, 49 yds per game, and im sure no one is wanting him to be included...Cliff Branch and Drew Pearson also right there with Jackson in average per game.
Hey, if the vote is for him Jackson to be added, i won't argue it, but be prepared for a BIG influx of similar players.
Jason
Almost forgot...His former teammate, Stanley Morgan had MORE yards in fewer games played...Also 4 pro Bowls..Just too many guys in that same class...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
dave
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
I wouldn't have a problem with any of the HOFers being added, although Bobby Mitchell and Charley Taylor spent quite a bit of time at RB and they weren't pure WRs so to speak...
Much like the All-Time Rushers, All-Time QBs, All-Time Defense sets, they are all mixed as to HOFers and current players. The rushers and receivers seem to have standards set that give automatic inclusion. For the rushers it's 10,000 yards..For the WRs, its 800 receptions and 12,000 yards...For all others, its simply a matter of comparison and who the collectors think are truly the all-time greats. There are many HOFers missing from all these sets, because it seems that only the best of the best were chosen. I doubt any FIRST BALLOT HOFers are missing though...
For any players lacking the minimum standards in yards or recptions, it should truly be Best of the Best...Having the collectors vote is 110% the right way to figure out who gets added and who doesnt when the player doesnt achieve the minimum numbers...
Of course, all of this is just my opinion on the matter...My vote is just one of many...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Branch, Pearson, Clark, etc. were good but never dominant. And Morgan began his career in 1977, one year before the NFL went to a 16-game schedule, so the fact that he has a few hundred more yards than Jackson is irrelevant. Aside from finishing 2nd in yards one year, Morgan never finished higher than 9th. There's so much more to stats than meets the eye, especially career stats, but Jackson has both single season and career numbers that are impressive and dominant.
I don't think we should open the floodgates here, but if being one of the few players ever to lead the NFL in receiving yards more than once and retiring with the most yards in NFL HISTORY (Maynard's yards came in the AFL too) doesn't warrant a spot in this set, then it's really just the arbitrary all-time WR greats. I also hope collectors wouldn't vote against a player's inclusion simply because they don't have his card or know much about that player. I'm not saying anyone does this. Just hope it never comes down to that.
Jackson is the only mainly pre 16 game schedule receiver with more than 10,000 yards not in the set. To me that says a lot.
On a similar note, I think Leroy Kelly's 1967 Philadelphia rookie card omission from the RB set is a glaring one. The dude led the NFL in rushing twice, finished second once and in the top 10 on two other occasions. He also finished first or second in rushing TDs five times and was also elected to 6 Pro Bowls. Dominant? Heck yeah.
2006 Nominees at WR:
Cliff Branch WR 1972-1985 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
Harold Carmichael WR 1971-1983 Philadelphia Eagles, 1984 Dallas Cowboys
Gary Clark WR 1985-1992 Washington Redskins, 1993-1994 Phoenix/Arizona Cardinals, 1995 Miami Dolphins
Mark Clayton WR 1983-1992 Miami Dolphins, 1993 Green Bay Packers
Isaac Curtis WR 1973-1984 Cincinnati Bengals
Mark Duper WR 1982-1992 Miami Dolphins
Henry Ellard WR 1983-1993 Los Angeles Rams, 1994-1998 Washington Redskins, 1998 New England Patriots
Irving Fryar WR 1984-1992 New England Patriots, 1993-1995 Miami Dolphins, 1996-1998 Philadelphia Eagles, 1999-2000 Washington Redskins
Michael Irvin WR 1988-1999 Dallas Cowboys
Art Monk WR 1980-1993 Washington Redskins, 1994 New York Jets, 1995 Philadelphia Eagles
Andre Reed WR 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins
Sterling Sharpe WR 1988-1994 Green Bay Packers
Drew Pearson WR 1973-1983 Dallas Cowboys
Here is 2005:
Cliff Branch 1972-1985 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
Harold Carmichael 1971-1983 Philadelphia Eagles, 1984 Dallas Cowboys
Mark Clayton 1983-1992 Miami Dolphins, 1993 Green Bay Packers
Isaac Curtis 1973-1984 Cincinnati Bengals
Mark Duper 1982-1992 Miami Dolphins
Henry Ellard 1983-1993 Los Angeles Rams, 1994-1998
Washington Redskins, 1998 New England Patriots
Michael Irvin 1988-1999 Dallas Cowboys
Louis Lipps 1984-1991 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1992 New Orleans Saints
Art Monk 1980-1993 Washington Redskins, 1994 New York Jets, 1995 Philadelphia Eagles
Haven Moses 1968-1972 Buffalo Bills, 1972-1981 Denver Broncos
Drew Pearson 1973-1983 Dallas Cowboys
And 2004:
Cliff Branch, WR
Henry Ellard, WR
Art Monk, WR
Drew Pearson, WR
Sterling Sharpe, WR
Steve Tasker, ST/WR
Wesley Walker, WR
Yes he led the league in receiving YARDS twice, but he also did it ONCE before the AFL merge(1969) ..If you factor in the guy who led the AFL in receiving that year (Warren Wells) then he really only was tops ONCE..
There is even another who led the league in receiving yards more than once who arent on the set:
Torry Holt (and in a WR/passing era)..Do you think he should already be included? Over Randy Moss or Terell Owens? Simply because he led the league twice?
Pete Pihos..Mentioned above, he led the league in rec. yds twice and is in the HOF and isnt on the set...
What about Mal Kutner? He led the league twice in 47-48...Or Jim Benton..He led the league in 45-46...
Leading the league a couple of years is NOT enough to warrant HOF induction, nor inclusion to the all-time WR set...Its got to be about the body of work. Jackson was one of the top 10 from the 1970's, but thats about it...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Jason and I have both made compelling arguments both for and against Jackson. No need to debate the topic to death. We only have one vote each. I will say though that there have been more than 24 great WR's in the NFL throughout the years (the set currently stands at 24)...
I can name 3 other guys who played in the 70's, who are NOT on the set or in the HOF that I would agree to be added before Jackson....Drew Pearson, Cliff Branch, Harold Carmichael...
I can name MULTIPLE current players I would add before Jackson....Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Torry Holt
Jackson has nothing to do with the HOF voting, because he's not even getting NOMINATED..You have to be nominated first, and that doesn't take a vote...From the HOF website:
"Any fan may nominate any qualified person who has been connected with pro football in any capacity simply by writing to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The only restriction is that a player must have been retired at least five years before he can be considered. For example, a candidate for the 2006 class must have concluded his career not later than the 2000 season."
Maybe you can nominate him Shaq and see if he can get a sniff of the semi-finals...lol..No one else, no other sports writer or NFL historian is even considering this guy..Instead they are nominating Isaac Curtis (from the 70s also) and Louie Lipps...lol
I couldn't more strongly disagree with an addition to the set unless it was Ricky Proehl...lol..If he gets added, be prepared for the floodgates and this set turns into a 50-75 card monster set...Just to many players who were BETTER that would then deserve to be added...
I look forward to the results of the poll.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Let the twice in TDs and top four twice. Career cut short by injury. But does he deserve to be here. Nope.
Does Isaac Bruce -- NOPE --
Then you have Jimmy Smith who is just consistent but not dominant.
I don't collect this set but now I will, I have the Lofton, Joiner and the Rice.
Welcome another collector with a big mouth.!!
Bruce and Jimmy Smith were added because of their career stats..Both over 800 receptions and 12,000 yards...Neither were a DOMINANT player, as Jerry Rice, Cris Carter and Marvin Harrison overlapped their careers...And those guys WERE/ARE dominant...
Just like the Rushers set..Is Ricky Watters one of the all-time greats? No, but he did run for over 10,000 yards...
Rather than PSA having 2 WR sets and 2 RB sets, one for DOMINANT players and one for 10,000 yard club or whatever, they basically rolled them into one set...
Makes sense to me, there's room for 10,000 yard rushers and 12,000 yard WRs on an all-time great set...That tells me they were really good for a really long time..
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
We're obviously in complete disagreement here, and we can leave it at that. Perhaps you'd like to argue against Leroy Kelly as worthy of inclusion in the all-time rushers set too???
Shag
Steve Van Buren
Lenny Moore
Hugh McElhenney
I'd take all of those guys over Kelly...Kelly wasn't elected to the HOF until he was a senior candidate..McElhenney made it 1st or 2nd ballot...
Lenny Moore was more dominant, well over 10,000 total yards and over 100 TDs...
Van Buren was the All-Time leading rusher...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I have learned alot from you the past months, but I didn't know you were the NFL's version of the Rain Man. I stand in awe of your plethora of football knowledge. I am learning from you that I don't know JS about football compared to the Jasp...
NFL History was a hobby of mine BEFORE cards...I've read everything I could find and watched all the old time game films I could see since I was about 10 years old...
I've been in and out of card collecting, but always loved football and always interested in learning about the history and the players that made the game what it is today...
Collecting the cards is just a way to connect even more to the all-time great players...I know many football card collectors simply don't know much about anything pre-Super Bowl years..Football doesnt have the rich history of the 30's and 40s like baseball, because it was a new game back then.
The internet is a great resource, and if you are interested in understanding exactly who's who on the HOF RC set, my advice is to hit Google and see what you can find...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
* Jackson led the entire NFL in receiving yards from 1969-1979
* This makes me 99% positive without looking that he had the most yards receiving in the entire decade of the 70's too
My request to add him to the set was well thought out. It wasn't just on a whim. And though I am not up on the old-timers, I consider myself very knowledgeable about the modern day players.
And all the Hall of Fame voting talk is crapola if you ask me. Let's take a Hall-of-Famer like Charlie Joiner and compare him to Jackson, shall we?
Joiner
239 Games 12,146 Yards 65 Touchdowns 3 Pro Bowls 8 Playoff Games Top 10 Yards (3) High (3)
Jackson
208 Games 10,372 Yards 76 Touchdowns 5 Pro Bowls 7 Playoff Games Top 10 Yards (5) High (1)
Looks like somebody got in because he hung around too long. Joiner certainly was nowhere near as dominant as Jackson. So how important is Hall of Fame voting??? Not very if you ask me. Is Harry Carson a better player now that he got in the Hall? No. Did he deserve to get in 10 years ago? Yes. Does Art Monk belong? Yes. Players legacies should be defined by what they did on the field, not by whether or not their buddies make sure they get a bust in Canton.
BUT Harold Jackson doesn't even get NOMINATED, while 17 other WRs have been at LEAST considered, and 4 of those from the 1970's..
Drew Pearson
Cliff Branch
Isaac Curtis
Harold Carmicheal
None of these guys have gotten close via voting, but they are at least considered..It doesn't take a VOTE to get someone considered..Harry Carson was close MANY times before the politics allowed him to get in..Art Monk has been in the final 6 a couple of times, but the politics have kept him out..Its not politics keeping Harold Jackson out of the HOF consideration list..
How about this...He played the entire decade of the 1970's, so why is it that the Pro Football Writers of America did not include him on the Team of the Decade?
The WRs from the 70's Team of the Decade are:
First Team--Lynn Swann, Drew Pearson
Second team--Paul Warfield, Harold Carmichael
Where is Jackson?
Why was Jackson a first team All-NFL selection ONCE in his entire career? Cliff Branch was first team 4 times during the 70's...
We can compare him to Joiner, lets see who was more DOMINANT..
Here are the PER GAME averages:
Joiner- 3.14 receptions, 50.82 yards, 0.27 TDs
Jackson- 2.78 receptions, 49.87 yards, 0.37 TDs
So Joiner not only caught more passes overall, but more PER GAME..not only did he have more yards overall, but had more yards PER GAME. What this tells me is that NEITHER of these players were DOMINANT PLAYERS...Joiner isn't on the list because he was DOMINANT, he's on the list because of his numbers..He retired the all-time leading receiver in NFL History, much like Art Monk. 750 catches, 12,146 yards is good enough to make this list, and also good enough to be elected to the HOF (on his 5th try)...
579 receptions, 10,372 yards is a nice tally, but since Jackson was not a DOMINANT player, he has to make the list based on numbers and while he is close, he just doesn't cut it..
But its up to the set registry voters...I can't see him making it over all of the other WRs i mentioned..If he does, I guess I will request the other 10-20 WRs who were better than Jackson to be added...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
| 1974 pit | 11 | 1 14 14.0 0 | 11 208 18.9 2 |
| 1975 pit | 14 | 3 13 4.3 0 | 49 781 15.9 11 |
| 1976 pit | 12 | 1 2 2.0 0 | 28 516 18.4 3 |
| 1977 pit | 14 | 2 6 3.0 0 | 50 789 15.8 7 |
| 1978 pit | 16 | 1 7 7.0 0 | 61 880 14.4 11 |
| 1979 pit | 13 | 1 9 9.0 1 | 41 808 19.7 5 |
| 1980 pit | 13 | 1 -4 -4.0 0 | 44 710 16.1 7 |
| 1981 pit | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 34 505 14.9 5 |
| 1982 pit | 9 | 1 25 25.0 0 | 18 265 14.7 0
Swann played great in the Super Bowl, but he also played 5 years with a 16-game schedule and the best he could manage was 880 yards. Can you say overrated? By throwing Lynn Swann into the equation, you're only making Jackson look better
Getting to 10,000 yards before the 16-game schedule was a MAJOR FEAT. Only Maynard and Jackson did it. If Jackson compiled those numbers just by hanging around too long, I wouldn't think he deserved a spot in the set either. But he was dominant and has absolutely superb numbers for a player who played 14 games a year.
I'll make you a deal..Get these guys added first and then i will vote for Jackson...lol
Cliff Branch
Harold Carmichael
Mark Clayton
Torry Holt
Kennan McCardell
Tommy McDonald
Wayne Millner
Bobby Mitchell
Randy Moss
Terrell Owens
Drew Pearson
Pete Pihos
Art Powell
Pete Retzlaff
Sterling Sharpe
Del Shofner
Rod Smith
Charley Taylor
Sorry, but Jackson ranks under all 17 of these guys on my list...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Tim Brown- 255 games- 1094 recepions
Cris Carter- 234 games- 1101 receptions
Henry Ellard- 228 - 814
Drew Hill- 211 - 634
Harold Jackson- 208 games- 579 receptions
Charlie Joiner- 239 - 750
Steve Largent- 200- 819
James Lofton 233- 764
Terrence Mathis 205- 689
Art Monk- 224 - 940
Ricky Proehl- 242- 666
Andre Reed 227- 951
Jerry Rice 303- 1549
Jackson's 10,000 yard stat you keep bringing up CLEARLY comes from longevity (16 years/208 games) and NOT dominance...And DOES NOT MERIT this list because of his dominance..Your only arguement is the numbers, and based on those, he comes up short...Not only short of this list, but of the HOF and of the AP (Associated press) All-NFL Teams, and short of being selected for the 1970s Team of the Decade..Hey, im not a writer or a voter..They guys who formulate the Team of the Decades are the writers that watch and cover those players over their career. If they didn;t think much of Jackson THEN, why would I think much of him now?
Because he led the league in receiving yards twice during a run happy era???Because he ammassed 10,000 yards in 16 years/208 games?
Sorry, that's just not good enough...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
2.92 receptions, 47.50 yards, 0.44 TDs
Harold Jackson??
2.78 receptions, 49.87 yards, 0.37 TDs
If Jackson was so dominant, why are you dogging Swann so badly? Not only did he catch more passes and score more TDs, hes right there with Jackson in yards per game...
The difference??? Swann did it with style, maybe the most fun to watch WR to ever play...And he did it in BIG GAMES...
His Super Bowl Stats:
1975-4--161--1
1978-7--124--1
1979-5---79---1
Once again Harold Jackson doesn't measure up..In fact he couldn't carry Lynn Swann's JOCK STRAP! lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Well, I just went went through the All-Time WR list and I found 17 guys better than Harold Jackson who aren't on the All-Time WR SET. >>
Better in your opinion, but that's all it is. It doesn't carry more weight than mine or anyone else's. And half of the players on your 17-player list are still playing and ineligible for the set because they haven't reached the modern 800, 12,000 standards. Why bring them up??? And if these standards are so set in stone, why is Michael Irvin in there if he fell short of them? The whole thing just seems so arbitrary to me. You obviously don't want Jackson in. I obviously do. We'll just have to wait and see what the other set registrants think.
The 800-12,000 thing has nothing to do with modern or vintage..Its all about DOMINANCE...The 800-12,000 plateau is for guys that have the numbers but were NOT dominant...
Joiner, Monk---Not dominant..They make it on longevity and total numbers beyond 800-12,000..
Irvin, Hirsch---Dominant..They make it based on their DOMINANCE, not there total numbers..
Rice, Harrison---They make it on numbers AND dominance...
Those are your 3 categories of players on the set...Jackson doesn't fit any of them, and it has nothing to do with want or not wanting him in..i simply don;t think he deserves to be in and I don;t understand hwo anyone could put him over even HALF of the 17 guys on my list...
Like you said, i guess the poll will decide..And if he gets added, i'll request the 17 others to make the set realistic again..lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Swann played on a running team, he played along side another HOF WR in Stallworth, he only PLAYED in 16 games ONCE, and only played in 14 games THREE times...
I don't know what you want to hear..You are right, much of this is our opinion..The thing is, we can't just go by our own personal opinions, that would be very short-sighted...That's why I like to use the information provided by the HOF voters and the Associated Press , and the Pro Football Writers of America to help base my opinion on something substantial.
The only arguement I've heard FOR Jackson is that he had 10,000 yards, and had the most yards receiving in the 70's or whatever..But he's also the guy who PLAYED in the most games in the 70's at WR..And the fact that he wasn't chosen to the 70s All-Decade team, and was only selected ONCE as a First team All-NFL player in his career says he was good, but not GREAT.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
And I also like Gail Cogdill.
I will obviously vote no.
Biletnikoff
190 Games 589 Catches 8,974 Yards 76 TDs 4 Playoff Games
Jackson
208 Games 579 Catches 10,372 Yards 76 TDs 7 Playoff Games
Yet Biletnikoff is viewed as this legend of the game, and Jackson, who I reiterate played during the same era, gets zero respect. I hope you're reading out there HJ. We haven't forgotten ya!!! At least I haven't.
Perception is simply not always reality.
Josh
<< <i>Perception is simply not always reality. >>
Well said Shag, and that applies specifically to the case of Harold Jackson..The perception you have is that he was an ALL-TIME GREAT player because he had big numbers..The reality is, he was just a slightly above average WR who ended up with big yardage numbers...Andre Rison, Gary Clark, Stanley Morgan, Harold Jackson..They all fit the same mold...
They were NOT dominant players like Biletnikoff was. They weren't Super Bowl MVPs and All-NFL/AFL players every year like Biletnikoff...They didn't play with the same style as Fred or Lynn Swann, and weren't even 50% as popular...Make no mistake about it, popularity and performace in big visible games are the things that produce LEGENDS. Stop comparing stat sheets and go watch some game film....lol
To compare Fred Biletnikoff with Harold Jackson is almost blasphemy in my opinion....
4 Playoff games for Fred????Were do you get your stats bro???You need to find a new website...lol..He played in FIVE AFC Championship games ALONE, 2 Super Bowls and that's not even counting the 3 AFL Title games...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
By Don Smith
The Coffin Corner Volume XVIII
For more than 20 years of football in high school, college and the pros, Fred Biletnikoff played just one position -- wide receiver.
Unlike many great athletes who try several different jobs before settling on one spot, Fred had no desire to play anywhere else. "I like catching passes," he always insisted. "And I like playing outside. I would be lost if I were ever told to do anything on a football field except catch passes."
So catching passes it was for Biletnikoff at Technical Memorial High School in Erie, Pa., at Florida State University in Tallahassee and with the Oakland Raiders in the American and National Football Leagues.
When his 14-year pro career came to an end after the 1978 campaign, Biletnikoff had amassed 589 receptions, the fourth best lifetime total ever up to that time. He had converted those catches into 8,974 yards and 76 touchdowns. During Fred's tenure, the Raiders never suffered a losing season and the dependable, sure-handed receiver was a major contributor. He caught more than 40 passes 10 straight years and his 77 touchdowns are the most ever scored by a Raider.
Although Biletnikoff's lack of breakaway speed kept him from being a receiver who could regularly contribute spectacular long gains to the Raiders attack, he did enjoy many outstanding days on pro football gridirons. By every measurement, however, he reached the zenith of his career in Super Bowl XI when he caught four passes for 79 yards and was named the game's Most Valuable Player.
MVP
The Raiders were leading by a field goal when Ken Stabler set up the game's first touchdown on a third-down-and-three slant-in pass to Biletnikoff, who made a sliding catch at the Minnesota 1-yard line. On the next possession, Stabler found Fred open again, this time with a 17-yard connection to the 1. Pete Banaszak scored on the next play to put Oakland ahead, 17-0.
The combination clicked again in the fourth quarter when Biletnikoff broke free up the middle on a 48-yard post pattern that placed the ball on the Vikings 2. Banaszak followed with the touchdown as the Raiders wrapped up a 32-14 victory.
While Biletnikoff prized the new car he received for winning MVP honors, he particularly savored the Super Bowl XI triumph because of his unhappy experience in Super Bowl II, when the Raiders lost to the Green Bay Packers, 33-14.
"I only caught two passes that day," Fred remembers. "The final blow came in the last period when Daryle Lamonica tried to hit me with a pass and Herb Adderley picked it off and returned 60 yards for a touchdown. When we made it back to the Super Bowl nine years later, I was 33 and I knew it could be my last opportunity to be on a World Championship team."
The fact that Biletnikoff came close to scoring three touchdowns but was stopped just short every time underscored his one talent deficiency -- a lack of blazing speed -- that made many question Fred's potential as a pro when he completed his Florida State collegiate career.
"Every scouting report we had was fantastic," Al Davis, the Raiders' managing general partner, recalls. "They all said Fred was outstanding in college, but they questioned his speed and weren't sure he would be outstanding in the pros. But we felt, with our approach to total pass offense, that speed wasn't the only consideration, that we could tailor our offense to our players."
In the long run, Fred's speed problem proved to be only a minor detriment. "I run the 40 in 4.7 and that's fast enough," he pointed out. "If the game of catching a football was simply a 40-yard race between the receivers and the cornerbacks, I'd lose some races. But it is more than just that. I know how to beat those speed burners. The secret is to get the jump on the defensive back."
Lamonica and Stabler
To help Biletnikoff in these pursuits were a pair of quarterbacks, Daryle Lamonica from 1967 through 1972 and Stabler after that. Both recognized Fred's pass-catching capabilities and worked countless hours to take full advantage of them.
"We've been together so long we know exactly what to expect from each other," Stabler said after Super Bowl XI. "I know where he's going before he gets there and he knows where I'll be throwing almost before I do. Like a great pianist, he is tops in his field. I look at him sometimes and wonder how he does the things he does."
Biletnikoff's pass-catching expertise can be traced in large part to the extensive experience he had with coaches who emphasized the passing game. "We probably threw 25 times a game in high school," he reflects, "really just as much as we did in Oakland."
Florida State coach Bill Peterson offered Fred a scholarship and teamed him with another future pro, quarterback Steve Tensi, to form a dynamic pass-catch duo with the Seminoles. "In my junior year, we went to a pro-type offense with four receivers," Fred said. "In my senior season, we threw all the time."
Biletnikoff finished fourth in the nation with 57 receptions for 11 touchdowns as a senior. A consensus all-America selection, he capped off his super year by catching four touchdown passes in Florida State's Gator Bowl victory over Oklahoma.
Fred was drafted by both the Raiders of the AFL and the Detroit Lions of the NFL. Oakland offered more money but Fred also took two other factors into consideration. First, he remembered the winters of his childhood in Erie, where he was born on February 23, 1943, and he didn't want to play regularly in the cold weather. He also felt the Lions were loaded with star receivers and that he would have a better chance to play with the Raiders. Right after the Gator Bowl game, he signed with Davis under the goal posts in front of a national television audience.
But he was introduced to the reality of pro football once he joined the Raiders. He seemed unsure of himself and for a while, he dropped more passes than he caught. When the season started, his play was confined to the special teams.
In the seventh game of his rookie campaign, Biletnikoff got his chance to start. He made the most of it with seven receptions in a 30-21 win over the Boston Patriots. He still did not become a regular but his play did improve. His rookie totals showed just 24 receptions for 331 yards but no touchdowns. The 1966 campaign started slightly better but in the ninth week, he tore up his knee and was out for the year. He needed off-season surgery to repair the damage.
Fred played the first four games in 1967, his third pro campaign, as a reserve. He finally broke into the starting lineup in the season's fifth game. Aided by the presence of Lamonica, who had come to Oakland from Buffalo in a trade, Biletnikoff blossomed.
Lamonica learned to take advantage of Fred's quick moves away from his defenders. The result was that Biletnikoff caught 40 passes for 895 yards and five touchdowns as the Raiders marched to the AFL championship. He never was anything but a Raider regular the rest of his career. He was picked for the AFL All-Star game after the 1967 season and again two years later. He was later named to four AFC-NFC Pro Bowls in five years. Fred was all-AFL in 1969 and all-AFC in 1970, 1972 and 1973.
Worry ! Worry !
Throughout his career, Fred was an acute worrier. He worried himself into an ulcer when he was only 21 and still in college. He agonized on the field and off. Biletnikoff became enraged when he dropped a pass -- which fortunately wasn't often -- even in practice. Before a game, he paced around the dressing room and often threw up. He kept a case of antacid in his locker and usually drank as much as two bottles of the white liquid before he took to the field. Even when Fred had a good day, it took him six to eight hours to calm down after the game.
"All of this stems from his desire to compete." his roommate, Tom Keating explained. "He is tough physically and mentally and he is also one of the most intense competitors I have ever seen."
Biletnikoff particularly relished his confrontations with some of the more talkative defensive backs. "I like to play against them," He explained. "If you catch a few passes, suddenly they quit talking."
One such confrontation came in a Kansas City game in l967 after Fred Williamson, the Chiefs' touted defender, boasted all week how he would contain the rambling Raider. On his first pass from Lamonica, Biletnikoff went 56 yards for a touchdown. Fred wound up with six catches for 158 yards while Williamson watched in comparative silence.
Playing opposite the New York Jets' John Sample in the 1968 AFL championship game, Fred caught seven passes for 190 yards. Testimony to his penchant for excellence in the biggest games, Biletnikoff, at the time of his retirement, held two post-season records with 70 receptions for 1,167 yards in 19 games.
Fred often faced double-coverage, in spite of his comparative slowness, but he did have one big advantage. Through most of his career, his fellow wide receivers, Art Powell first followed by Warren Wells and then Cliff Branch, possessed blazing speed. As a result, Oakland opponents were constantly faced with the dilemma of whether it was best to risk the long-bomb threat and concentrate on stopping Biletnikoff or to do just the opposite
and let Fred run wild.
One of the hardest-working players in the league, Biletnikoff practiced his patterns, gazed at films and studied his opponents hour after hour. Before a game, he always smeared his hands with a green, gooey substance to improve his grip.
"The thing that is most impressive about Fred," long-time Raiders coach John Madden said, "is that he is a man-made receiver. He has to work hard for everything he's got. He can catch anything he can touch. That's no accident -- some receivers might catch 15 or 20 passes in practice. Fred will catch 100."
Fred Biletnikoff
WR 6-1 190 Florida State
Born: February 23, 1943, in Erie, PA
YEAR TEAM LG G NO YDS AVG TD
1965 Oak A 14 24 331 13.8 0
1966 Oak A 10 17 272 16.0 3
1967 Oak A 14 40 876 21.9 5
1968 Oak A 14 61 1037 17.0 6
1969 Oak A 14 54 837 15.5 12
1970 Oak N 14 45 768 17.1 7
1971 Oak N 14 61 929 15.2 9
1972 Oak N 14 58 802 13.8 7
1973 Oak N 14 48 660 13.8 4
1974 Oak N 14 42 593 14.1 7
1975 Oak N 11 43 587 13.7 2
1976 Oak N 13 43 551 12.8 7
1977 Oak N 14 33 446 13.5 5
1978 Oak N 16 20 285 14.3 2
14 yrs 190 589 8974 15.2 76
"Pass receiving to Fred was a job," Keating said on hearing of his good friend's election to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. "Nobody put more pressure on himself than he did. There was no one quite like Fred Biletnikoff!"
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>You need to find a new website...lol >>
Stupid profootball-reference.com! Well, it still doesn't negate the regular season comparison. Eerily similar.
<< <i>Make no mistake about it, popularity and performace in big visible games are the things that produce LEGENDS >>
Excellent point. In many instances it's a popularity contest.
<< <i>The perception you have is that he was an ALL-TIME GREAT player because he had big numbers >>
Puleeeeeeze stop already
Jackson also has the long-term covered. Like I mentioned previously, he is the ONLY pre 16 game schedule receiver other than Maynard with more than 10,000 yards. And since Maynard racked up many yards in the AFL, Jackson retired as the NFL's career leader in receiving yards and # 2 overall behind Maynard. So that covers short term, long term abd career.
Hall of Fame voting, all decade teams, blah, blah, blah. It's all crapola. Just names written on a piece of paper or busts that may or may not be deserving. The NFL moreso than any other sport focuses too much on winning, at the expense of great players who did not have the luxury of playing on great teams. This can be remedied in today's world of free agency. But beforehand, you were stuck with the hand you were dealt.
Jason and I actually chat quite a bit about football and football cards. There's zero animosity between us. I guess you could call us cyber buddies. He's a good guy, despite his utter lack of respect for Harold Jackson
Shag
I have plenty of respect for the guy..I said I he would probably rank him in my Top 50 All-time WRs, but just not in the Top 25 which is where you are trying to put him...Thats not dis-respect, the being realistic...
He led the 70's in receving yards? Well I guess we should add Billy Howton then, because he led the 50's in receiving yards...I mean come on, what other WR PLAYED in every year from 1970-1979...So he should be added because he played the most games from 70-79..I've already shown that his PER GAME average was not DOMINANT in any way. You keep going back to the numbers because I think we both know, Harold Jackson wasn't particularly known for being a GREAT player even when he was playing...He's Irving Fryar without the huge numbers...Maybe if he had hung around a couple of more years like Joiner, he would be more worthy...16 years and 208 games weren't enough..The MOST EVER at the time, yet STILL not enough...
Bottom line is that other than you Shag, I don't think anyone will ever regard Harold Jackson as an All-Time Great WR...He was a good player, a good WR but that's it...When the poll results are complete and Jackson isn't added, maybe you should request an All-Time GOOD WR Set...We could put Jackson, Gary Clark, Harold Carmichael, Cliff Branch...All those guys who belong in the GOOD category in that set...lol
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Also Swann is the most overrated player in NFL History and I am a pittsburgh fan. >>
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd put Namath ahead of Swann on that list
<< <i>I'd put Namath ahead of Swann on that list >>
Throw Hornung in there too.
But, I don't see how that affects Harold Jackson and his inclusion in the All-Time WR greats set..Are you saying we should put another undeserving guy on the list? My goal is to get the sets as CORRECT as possible. We talked this issue to death a couple of years ago when we had kurt Warner removed from the All-Time QB set.
Personally, I don't think anyone should ever be removed from a set, which is why we need to be careful in who we add...Because once added, they need to stay there. Otherwise, we are at risk for any card we buy for these sets being a waste of money when the card is removed in the future because someone doesn;t like the guy or whatever.
The poll voting is the perfect solution really. Whatever the majority feels we should add deserves inclusion. Edgerrin James was requested to the All-Time RB set recently and denied by vote. Does that mean he won;t be added in the future? Not at all..Once he gets a few more years under his belt, he will be worthy.
Harold Jackson retired before he became WORTHY...Based on the collectors that I know are collecting the All-Time WR set, I just can't see Jackson being accepted, PERIOD. Maybe try requesting someone more worthy like Pete Pihos or Tommy McDonald...You want a non-HOFer, try Randy Moss..I think he is deserving if he retired today, because he was THE DOMINANT WR from 1998-2003..Top 5 in yards 5 times, top 5 in TDs 5 times, top 5 in receptions twice...
Shag, do you really think in a side-by-side "in game" comparison of Harold Jackson and Randy Moss that Harold Jackson is the better WR???
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Shag, do you really think in a side-by-side "in game" comparison of Harold Jackson and Randy Moss that Harold Jackson is the better WR??? >>
Ay, yi, yi. Jason, those of us who collect the WR set KNOW that the standards for a modern player to gain entry are 800 and 12,000, so why do you keep mentioning current players??? Unless one of the guys in line to join the set goes down with a career-ending injury (Moss, Owens, etc.), then discussion is pointless. Of course I don't think Jackson was better than Moss. That's just silly. Jackson should be measured against players of his own era, just like every other player else should. I think you've done enough Jackson bashing for the week, haven't you???
You aren't totally correct on the 800-12,000 plateau...It has absolutely NOTHING to do with modern player or vintage player. The 800-12,000 plateau applies to ALL WRs from 1920-2006 who deserve to be added to the set SOLELY based on their numbers.
If a clearly DOMINANT player CURRENT OR RETIRED has less than the 800-12,000 yards, they are still eligible to be added to the set based SOLELY on their dominance of the league. While it can be argued whether or not Moss has been dominant enough to merit inclusion NOW, or if he should wait for his AUTOMATIC inclusion at 800-12,000 first, you CAN'T make that arguement for your boy Jackson...He was NOT dominant enough and he did not reach the necessary plateau to be included.
I think we've both made our points, and while I disagree with you on Jackson, I DO understand many of your points. He had the most yards in the 70's, he led the league twice, hey maybe he was a little better than most historians give him credit for. But the bottom line is that he wasn't a CLEARLY DOMINANT player simply because he played in ever game from 1970-1979. You've agreed Moss is the better WR if you lined them up side-by-side both in their prime...
Is he better than Pete Pihos in his prime? If your answer is no or even probably not, then you see my point as to where Jackson is not first in line to be added to the set. If he were the 25th best WR all-time, i would have voted for him...
Thanks for the good debate though..It was fun...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
He had the best scoring year ever and also played on the best team for nearly a decade. Kinda like Swann.
Does he belong on the All-Time set? Not in my mind. I say put in Edge James. But does Corey Dillon deserve it? Nope.
Just my opinion.
Have you guys seen my thread on the one year wonder? Maybe you should add Hornung to the list???
<< <i> I say put in Edge James. But does Corey Dillon deserve it? Nope.
>>
Remember, much like the WR set, the RB set doubles as a 10,000 yard rusher set...If a guy hits 10,000 yards he automatically makes the set. Dillon hit 10,000 and was added. I suspect james will hit 10,000 this season and then be added.
Don't shoot the messenger (me), ok...lol..But a couple of years back someone requested a 10,000 yard rusher set IN ADDITION to the already online All-Time Rusher set. Instead of having 2 similar sets, PSA combined them into one.
Player UNDER 10,000 yards must earn selection to the set by virtue of their domianace...One VERY big oversight in my mind is Steve Van Buren..Not sure why he isn't added already...
Maybe someone should request him? He WAS dominant, and a former All-Time leading rusher...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I think we've all learned at least one important thing from this thread ... that Shag must have a really minty looking Jackson rookie card, and Jason doesn't.
Mike
<< <i>One VERY big oversight in my mind is Steve Van Buren >>
As I mentioned earlier, the next player I would add to the RB set, ahead of Van Buren even, is Leroy Kelly. The dude was a flat out stud. The Shaun Alexander of his day. Check out the stats:
* Led the NFL in rushing in 1967 and 1968 and finished 2nd in 1966
* Finished in the top 10 in rushing in '69 and '71 for a total of 5 top 10 finishes
* Led the NFL or finished second in rushing TDs 5 TIMES!!!
* Made the Pro Bowl 6 straight years (1966-1971)
His 1,727-7,274-74 career stats line looks a little ho hum, but a closer look tells you all you need to know about Leroy Kelly. He was D-O-M-I-N-A-N-T. And the almighty Hall of Fame that Jason speaks so highly of agrees too.
From the HOF website:
Leroy Kelly, in a 10-year tenure with the Cleveland Browns from 1964 through 1973, established himself as one of the most feared ball carriers in the history of the National Football League.
Overall, he rushed for 7,274 yards and ranked among the top 20 all-time rushers until midway through 1993 season. He added 2,281 yards on 190 pass receptions and excelled as a punt and kickoff return specialist, particularly in his early years in the NFL. His combined net yards total of 12,330 on rushes, receptions and returns ranks him among the best ever.
Kelly was an eighth-round pick of the Browns in the 1964 draft after a fine four-year career at Morgan State. For his first two years, he was an understudy to Jim Brown, the most prolific ground-gainer in history up to that time. When Brown retired just before the 1966 campaign, Kelly filled the void in a manner seldom seen in pro football circles.
For the next three years, he rushed for 1,000 yards, winning All-NFL honors each year and being selected as a starter in three straight Pro Bowls. Kelly also played in three other Pro Bowls following the 1969, 1970 and 1971 seasons, and earned first-team All-NFL in 1969 and 1971.
During his career, he won four individual statistical championships, including NFL rushing titles in 1967 and 1968. In 1965, he won the NFL punt return title, an honor he repeated in the AFC in 1971. Noted as an exceptionally fine runner on muddy fields, the 6-0, 202-pound Kelly favored the famed Browns trap play up the middle for his major yardage ventures but he was equally devastating on sweeps or as a receiver. His quick-starting ability, along with a sense of balance and knack of evading direct hits by tacklers, kept him relatively injury-free, missing only four games in 10 years and never more than one game per season.
<< <i>Nice debate guys, and valid points on both sides!
I think we've all learned at least one important thing from this thread ... that Shag must have a really minty looking Jackson rookie card, and Jason doesn't.
Mike >>
Your right I don't..Although that's never stopped me from voting on cards to be added before...How much is his RC $20 for a PSA 9???lol
If I thought he was worthy, I would vote for him...And I think most of the All-Time Great set collectors would do the same...I'm running out of cards to buy, I'm only missing one card from being 100% in ALL my sets..And I only need to upgrade something like 20 or 25...I already own most of the "future" additions to the sets too...lol..Not hard to see who's headed for 10,000 yards or for 800-12,000...lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
The HOF put him in as a senior candidate...Van Buren, Lenny Moore or even Hugh McElhenney SHOULD be added before Kelly IMO..They were also D-O-M-I-N-A-N-T and McElhenney was a FIRST BALLOT HOFer...
I wouldn't call Kelly the Shaun Alexander of his day, because well..He was NEVER the MVP...lol
Maybe you should start a new thread Shag and see what the consensus is for having ANY of these HOF RB's added to the RB set...Then request the most popular selection from here on the forum and my guess is, you might get the guy added...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
""Steve Van Buren answered to a lot of names during his eight-year career in the National Football League, "Wham Bam,” "Supersonic Steve," "Blockbuster," and several more. Translated, they all meant he was an exceptional football player.
To be sure, Steve's pro career was distinctive. He surpassed 1,000 yards rushing twice, won four NFL rushing titles and a rare “triple crown” in 1945 when he led in rushing, scoring, and kickoff returns. He was a first-team All-NFL selection each of his first six seasons. Van Buren lined up as a halfback but played more like a fullback as the battering ram of a powerful Eagles squad that dominated the NFL in the late 1940s.
Philadelphia had never finished above fourth place until Steve came on the scene in 1944. That year they finished second, were runners-up two more years, won three straight divisional titles, and the NFL title in 1948 and 1949.
Van Buren provided the offensive punch in both championship victories. In 1949 title game against the Los Angeles Rams, Steve carried 31 times for a record 196 yards as the Eagles won 14-0. A year earlier, Van Buren rushed for 98 yards and scored the game's only touchdown in the Eagles 7-0 title win over the Chicago Cardinals.
Born in Honduras, Van Buren was orphaned when he was very young and sent to New Orleans to live with his grandparents. He failed to make the high school football team as a 125-pound high school sophomore, but as a senior he played well enough to win a scholarship to LSU. In his senior season, Van Buren rushed for 832 yards. Encouraged by LSU coach Bernie Moore, the Eagles selected him as their top pick in the draft. It was a break for Van Buren and, for the Eagles, possibly their most fortunate ever.""
Need more:
After a knee injury before the 1952 season, Van Buren retired as league record holder for rushing yards (5860) and rushing touchdowns (69). He also scored three times returning kickoffs, three times on receptions, and twice on punt returns for a total of 77 touchdowns. He was also the first running back to pass 1000 yards in a season twice.
Oh and he was also selected to the NFL's 75th Anniversry Team...HELLO!!!!lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.