What Big E said about adding an asterick. Actually NGC is already giving some kind of asterick for super dipped coins that have elevated them to some kind of elite status.
What grade would you assign a coin that was dipped blast white 20 years ago and has subtly retoned over the years? I am expecting some of you to say that the dipped coin tones differently and is detectable as such, but do you really believe that?
Given the ever-changing collectable trends, why would you assume that the word "original' will have the same definition tomorrow as it does today? Should a certified a silver coin with rainbow splashes of color state on the label, "oxidized" due to environmental conditions?
<< <i>Is this coin "original'? It is over 160 years old yet it is almost white
(picture of 1845-O dime deleted) >>
Likely not. But as a seated dime collector, I'd still kill to own it.
I suspect that far fewer coins are truly "original" than many believe. In such a case, what we're talking about is a matter of degree in many cases. Some messed-with coins still look much closer to truly "original" than others. Thus, it again comes back to market acceptability. And everyone has their own definition of that, but the TPGs obviously try to look at the typical case. I suspect quite a few people who insist on "original" have dipped (or otherwise messed-with) coins and don't know it, much as people who only collect toners have some AT pieces and don't know it.
I reject the idea that collectors need to have every subjective aspect about a coin spoon-fed to them by the TPGs in order for the collector to determine (a) how desirable the coin is to them and (b) what they should pay for it. At some point the collector needs to be able to determine the merits of the coin and how much it's worth TO THEM. Otherwise, true connoisseurship is essentially dead, no matter how much people insist on "the best." They're relying on the TPG's definition of "the best," not their own.
Of course, one could say that the difference in grading services accounts for the difference in grades, but I will wager that the new owner of this coin could get it to cross, if desired.
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
<< <i>When it's a pre-1840s coin, they don't even note that it's been cleaned. >>
"I beg to differ. I have a 1796 dollar that got bb'd for cleaning (aka "altered surfaces")."
I didn't say that they slabbed all pre-1840 coins, I said that the holdered ones are cleaned. >>
You said that, "When it's a pre-1840's coin, they don't even note that it's been cleaned." That's obviously untrue, because they did note that mine was (allegedly) cleaned. PCGS might inadvertently slab pre-1840 coins that are cleaned, but they don't ignore the cleaning when they find it.
If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.
<< <i>When it's a pre-1840s coin, they don't even note that it's been cleaned. >>
"I beg to differ. I have a 1796 dollar that got bb'd for cleaning (aka "altered surfaces")."
I didn't say that they slabbed all pre-1840 coins, I said that the holdered ones are cleaned. >>
You said that, "When it's a pre-1840's coin, they don't even note that it's been cleaned." That's obviously untrue, because they did note that mine was (allegedly) cleaned. PCGS might inadvertently slab pre-1840 coins that are cleaned, but they don't ignore the cleaning when they find it. >>
You are both partially right. Yes, PCGS sometimes bags pre-1840 coins for cleaning. Not often enough, (at least if one believes their claim that any coin in one of their slabs is totally without problems) but they do so.
Yes, they DO slab cleaned coins without offically noting that it was cleaned. Many times they simply ignore it; other times they quietly (again without noting on the label) net grade it.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>Yes, they DO slab cleaned coins without offically noting that it was cleaned. Many times they simply ignore it; other times they quietly (again without noting on the label) net grade it. >>
So how does one get one's coin in the lucky "See No Evil" pile?
If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.
I think the TPG's should absolutely declare whether a coin has been dipped and by what degree. I don't think, at this point, and at least by NGC's standards, that they "deduct" grading points due to dipping... just look at what they did with this 1850-C half eagle!! It went from a nice, original, crusty ANACS XF-40, to a PCGS XF-45 (still unmessed with, and finally to an NGC-50 coin that had obviously undergone severe "conservation" ie, scrubbing by NCS... all within a matter of 6 months. The least NGC should've done was knock this coin's grade down at least 5-10 points due to the scrubbing it took... making it an XF-40 or VF-35 (from the PCGS XF-45).
<< <i>Yes, they DO slab cleaned coins without offically noting that it was cleaned. Many times they simply ignore it; other times they quietly (again without noting on the label) net grade it. >>
So how does one get one's coin in the lucky "See No Evil" pile? >>
Keep submitting it until PCGS decides you have spent enough on grading fees.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
Comments
Given the ever-changing collectable trends, why would you assume that the word "original' will have the same definition tomorrow as it does today? Should a certified a silver coin with rainbow splashes of color state on the label, "oxidized" due to environmental conditions?
<< <i>Is this coin "original'? It is over 160 years old yet it is almost white
(picture of 1845-O dime deleted) >>
Likely not. But as a seated dime collector, I'd still kill to own it.
I suspect that far fewer coins are truly "original" than many believe. In such a case, what we're talking about is a matter of degree in many cases. Some messed-with coins still look much closer to truly "original" than others. Thus, it again comes back to market acceptability. And everyone has their own definition of that, but the TPGs obviously try to look at the typical case. I suspect quite a few people who insist on "original" have dipped (or otherwise messed-with) coins and don't know it, much as people who only collect toners have some AT pieces and don't know it.
I reject the idea that collectors need to have every subjective aspect about a coin spoon-fed to them by the TPGs in order for the collector to determine (a) how desirable the coin is to them and (b) what they should pay for it. At some point the collector needs to be able to determine the merits of the coin and how much it's worth TO THEM. Otherwise, true connoisseurship is essentially dead, no matter how much people insist on "the best." They're relying on the TPG's definition of "the best," not their own.
"I beg to differ. I have a 1796 dollar that got bb'd for cleaning (aka "altered surfaces")."
I didn't say that they slabbed all pre-1840 coins, I said that the holdered ones are cleaned.
This coin had 66 surfaces, but some minor toning spots were preventing a higher grade:
51s- needs a dip
Gave it a little dippity doo-dah:
same coin, new grade
Of course, one could say that the difference in grading services accounts for the difference in grades, but I will wager that the new owner of this coin could get it to cross, if desired.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>
"White" is one thing, white because of dipping is a totally different story >>
How do you think a shiny new silver coin got to be white? The mint washes the blanks
in acid before striking!
<< <i>When it's a pre-1840s coin, they don't even note that it's been cleaned. >>
"I beg to differ. I have a 1796 dollar that got bb'd for cleaning (aka "altered surfaces")."
I didn't say that they slabbed all pre-1840 coins, I said that the holdered ones are cleaned. >>
You said that, "When it's a pre-1840's coin, they don't even note that it's been cleaned." That's obviously untrue, because they did note that mine was (allegedly) cleaned. PCGS might inadvertently slab pre-1840 coins that are cleaned, but they don't ignore the cleaning when they find it.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>
<< <i>When it's a pre-1840s coin, they don't even note that it's been cleaned. >>
"I beg to differ. I have a 1796 dollar that got bb'd for cleaning (aka "altered surfaces")."
I didn't say that they slabbed all pre-1840 coins, I said that the holdered ones are cleaned. >>
You said that, "When it's a pre-1840's coin, they don't even note that it's been cleaned." That's obviously untrue, because they did note that mine was (allegedly) cleaned. PCGS might inadvertently slab pre-1840 coins that are cleaned, but they don't ignore the cleaning when they find it. >>
You are both partially right. Yes, PCGS sometimes bags pre-1840 coins for cleaning. Not often enough, (at least if one believes their claim that any coin in one of their slabs is totally without problems) but they do so.
Yes, they DO slab cleaned coins without offically noting that it was cleaned. Many times they simply ignore it; other times they quietly (again without noting on the label) net grade it.
<< <i>Yes, they DO slab cleaned coins without offically noting that it was cleaned. Many times they simply ignore it; other times they quietly (again without noting on the label) net grade it. >>
So how does one get one's coin in the lucky "See No Evil" pile?
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
Look and enjoy
the 'dude
ANACS XF-40 / June 2005
PCGS XF-45 / SEP 2005
NGC AU-50 / FEB 2006 Freshly Ruined
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, they DO slab cleaned coins without offically noting that it was cleaned. Many times they simply ignore it; other times they quietly (again without noting on the label) net grade it. >>
So how does one get one's coin in the lucky "See No Evil" pile?
Keep submitting it until PCGS decides you have spent enough on grading fees.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor