Since the true perfect coin is a dream, we could approach this problem two ways. Keep 70 as an impossible dream and have a 69.5 grade --> "kinda perfect" or define 70 as "kinda perfect."
<< <i>Crack a $95,000.00 1909(svdb) Lincoln cent grading PCGS-MS67RD out of the holder (10) times, submit it raw and how many times do you think you will end up with a $12,000 - $15,000 1909(svdb) PCGS-MS66RD? >>
Why do that? Most likely it too ten submits to get it into a 67 holder.
Peter principle of coins:
Every valuable coin eventually resides long term in a holder of questionable grade.
NGC "70" vs PCGS "70" - Which one is really right?
it is only $$$REALLY$$$ right for the guy making the coins at the services and then selling them
and like a couple of years ago picking up his bulk modern submission at the ****booth and screaming like mad that he did not get any 70 graded coins AND refusing to take them back as he did not get his precious 70 grades and then a couple of weeks later finally re-picking up the his bulk submission from **** with his special share of now 70 graded coins
"and like a couple of years ago picking up his bulk modern submission at the ****booth and screaming like mad that he did not get any 70 graded coins AND refusing to take them back as he did not get his precious 70 grades and then a couple of weeks later finally re-picking up the his bulk submission from **** with his special share of now 70 graded coins"
Curious tale -
1. Modern bulk is not even dealt with by either major grading company at their booths as far I know. But, let's assume that actually occurs...
2. Third parties knowing the results of the "resubmission" weeks later would imply the sumbittor was comfortable with his convictions on that batch of coins.
3. Assuming the results of the resubmission resulted in some upgrades - that submittor really did know his coins and the grading company should be commended for taking the time to review the batch of coins and doing the right thing. From my personal experience over the years, the majority of resubmissions result in virtually no changes after the grading company reviews it work.
Of course, what any of this has to do with PCGS-PR70DC vs. NGC-PR70UC is hard to follow.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
It is unfortunate that 70 is often referred to as perfect. Any two coins can be ranked so some 70's are more perfect than others. The definitions for this grade really need to be reworked.
The 70 grade has nothing to do with grading. That grade is used by the grading services and the retailers to extract its share of value from the top sets. The price of a 70 is all that is relative. It is the the premium a collector is willing to pay to propel his/her set into the top rankings.
For my proof Lincoln set, I have bought 70's in the modern series just so that my early proofs will get the respect they deserve in the complete 09-present proof set. I went quite a while with nothing but 69's and was perfectly content with the coins, but changed my approach when the 09-present proof set was added to the registry. I'm only missing about 5 available 70's from that series, and the points they would add are so small they are not worth the thousands of dollars that I would have to pay to get them.
As far as NGC 70's, I would rather have PCGS PR69DC's at $20 (or less) each. The NGC registry doesn't represent the best in my series, so there is absolutely no premium associated with this grade across the street.
Deadhorse: I just saw this thread and wanted you to answer a question.
I tried this on a much more limited basis with ASE's and it was my observation that the 70's had better strikes, especially in the lines in the robe on Miss Liberty at the top. Is that what you found or was it something else that distinguished them?
I am in the minority but I don't see the problem with a collector wanting to own a 70 over a 69..........it seems some would ridicule a collector who does and, IMHO, it seems they are trying to justify their collecting habits and/or pocketbook. I don't collect moderns but do prefer high end and have always been willing to pay for it in other series.
In answer to the original question between NGC and PCGS I can only say that when comparing NGC to PCGS it seems that NGC's 70's would mostly not make a PCGS 70 grade. Sure, there are exceptions, but the general rule is that PCGS has a higher standard (doesn't make them right per grading standards but does make them more valuable.............again, as a general rule, still need to look at the coin.
FOR THOSE WHO SAY THEY CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE, then they better stay with 69's anyway.
<< <i>Here is how Sheldon defined 70 back in 1949:
"A 70-coin is one in flawless Mint State, exactly as it left the dies, with perfect mint color and without a blemish or a nick."
I'm sure everyone here could take that little slice from the original scripture of numerical grading and use it to defend almost any position. >>
Thank you! I'm glad someone with a huge reference library at their disposal chimed in, because I was wondering what the original Sheldon definition was.
On the surface it seems to favor the folks who think a 70 must be "perfect." But it gives rise to more questions than it answers.
When he says "without a blemish or a nick," is that with the unaided (naked) eye or with a certain amount of magnification (or possibly even with as much magnification as possible)?
Does "perfect mint color" mean it has to be the same color as it was when it left the mint (and therefore, toners couldn't be MS-70)?
Note also that this definition is clearly a reference to technical grading. "Exactly as it left the dies" presumably includes coins that left those dies very weakly struck. Yet few in today's market-grading world would even consider a very weakly struck coin for even 66 or 67, let alone 70, no matter how pristine.
"Mint State 60, 65, 70: Free from any trace of wear, and the color should be that of a copper coin which has been kept with great care. The color will vary from mint red to light brown or light olive, according to the chemical content and moisture of the prevailing atmosphere in which the coin has been kept. The light brown and light olive colors indicate the first beginnings of a protective patina, or surface "set." When these colors are attractively blended the coin is as highly prized by discerning collectors as is one of brighter color. For condition 60 a minor blemish, perhaps some microscopic injury, or light trace of discoloration may be tolerated. For condition 70, the coin must be exactly as it left the dies, except for a slight mellowing of the color. Condition 60 means Mint State. Condition 70 means perfect Mint State."
Later, he comments on weak strikes: "Such coins, even when in Mint State, will lack some of their detail. The cataloguer or student of coins must acquaint himself with these varieties and must learn to judge the condition of a particular cent according to the amount of actual wear after it left the dies. In this ability lies much of the skill and art of cent numismatics."
<< <i>Deadhorse: I just saw this thread and wanted you to answer a question.
I tried this on a much more limited basis with ASE's and it was my observation that the 70's had better strikes, especially in the lines in the robe on Miss Liberty at the top. Is that what you found or was it something else that distinguished them?
I am in the minority but I don't see the problem with a collector wanting to own a 70 over a 69..........it seems some would ridicule a collector who does and, IMHO, it seems they are trying to justify their collecting habits and/or pocketbook. I don't collect moderns but do prefer high end and have always been willing to pay for it in other series.
In answer to the original question between NGC and PCGS I can only say that when comparing NGC to PCGS it seems that NGC's 70's would mostly not make a PCGS 70 grade. Sure, there are exceptions, but the general rule is that PCGS has a higher standard (doesn't make them right per grading standards but does make them more valuable.............again, as a general rule, still need to look at the coin.
FOR THOSE WHO SAY THEY CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE, then they better stay with 69's anyway.
Have fun. >>
Yes, you are onto it. The lines at the top of the robe across the shoulders should jump out on a 70 as well as the top right shoulder line on the extended arm.
The other areas where I found strike differences were the frills at the bottom of the robe and the sandal detail. Where the robe overlaps the rays it should also give a feeling of depth, a 3 dimensional effect. Too many are flat looking in that area.
I hate to use the term "first strike", but it would seem that the earlier strikes on any given die are the ones that really stand out.
While it's not high relief in the truest sense of the word, it is that boldness that separates the 70 from the 69.
FWIW, the reverses were usually virtually the same, high end 69s or the 70s. I couldn't use that as a qualifier.
Something I left out was that my sample population contained an equal number of PCGS and NGC slabs and an equal number of 69s and 70s. The one I kept missing on was a PCGS. It really should be a 70, but I could resubmit it 100 times and never get the grade. My guess is that I'd only have to submit it to NGC perhaps 20 times to get the grade. Not worth the expense. I submitted it originally from a roll I purchashed that came from a newly opened Monster Box. Though most of them were purchased already slabbed.
The best strike of all the 70s is in an NGC slab, PCGS had the second and third slots and the other three were a toss up. The two I sold were in the last three group.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
"The one I kept missing on was a PCGS. It really should be a 70, but I could resubmit it 100 times and never get the grade."
The highest grade achieveable at PCGS for the past 4 or so years has been MS69 on MS Silver Eagles. They spot and PCGS won't slab them as MS70's. Any MS70's you see on the pop report are from the prior time period where PCGS would consider the MS70 grade (and one mechanical error where the coin is actually a Gold Eagle). But, unfortunately, I believe many of those earlier graded MS70's have spotted as well.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
<< <i>Crack a $95,000.00 1909(svdb) Lincoln cent grading PCGS-MS67RD out of the holder (10) times, submit it raw and how many times do you think you will end up with a $12,000 - $15,000 1909(svdb) PCGS-MS66RD? >>
Why do that? Most likely it too ten submits to get it into a 67 holder.
Peter principle of coins:
Every valuable coin eventually resides long term in a holder of questionable grade.
it is only $$$REALLY$$$ right for the guy making the coins at the services and then selling them
and like a couple of years ago picking up his bulk modern submission at the ****booth and screaming like mad that he did not get any 70 graded coins AND refusing to take them back as he did not get his precious 70 grades and then a couple of weeks later finally re-picking up the his bulk submission from **** with his special share of now 70 graded coins
makes sense to me
Curious tale -
1. Modern bulk is not even dealt with by either major grading company at their booths as far I know. But, let's assume that actually occurs...
2. Third parties knowing the results of the "resubmission" weeks later would imply the sumbittor was comfortable with his convictions on that batch of coins.
3. Assuming the results of the resubmission resulted in some upgrades - that submittor really did know his coins and the grading company should be commended for taking the time to review the batch of coins and doing the right thing. From my personal experience over the years, the majority of resubmissions result in virtually no changes after the grading company reviews it work.
Of course, what any of this has to do with PCGS-PR70DC vs. NGC-PR70UC is hard to follow.
Wondercoin
are more perfect than others. The definitions for this grade really need to be reworked.
ttt
For my proof Lincoln set, I have bought 70's in the modern series just so that my early proofs will get the respect they deserve in the complete 09-present proof set. I went quite a while with nothing but 69's and was perfectly content with the coins, but changed my approach when the 09-present proof set was added to the registry. I'm only missing about 5 available 70's from that series, and the points they would add are so small they are not worth the thousands of dollars that I would have to pay to get them.
As far as NGC 70's, I would rather have PCGS PR69DC's at $20 (or less) each. The NGC registry doesn't represent the best in my series, so there is absolutely no premium associated with this grade across the street.
I tried this on a much more limited basis with ASE's and it was my observation that the 70's had better strikes, especially in the lines in the robe on Miss Liberty at the top. Is that what you found or was it something else that distinguished them?
I am in the minority but I don't see the problem with a collector wanting to own a 70 over a 69..........it seems some would ridicule a collector who does and, IMHO, it seems they are trying to justify their collecting habits and/or pocketbook. I don't collect moderns but do prefer high end and have always been willing to pay for it in other series.
In answer to the original question between NGC and PCGS I can only say that when comparing NGC to PCGS it seems that NGC's 70's would mostly not make a PCGS 70 grade. Sure, there are exceptions, but the general rule is that PCGS has a higher standard (doesn't make them right per grading standards but does make them more valuable.............again, as a general rule, still need to look at the coin.
FOR THOSE WHO SAY THEY CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE, then they better stay with 69's anyway.
Have fun.
<< <i>I'll bet William Sheldon would think NGC and PCGS are both way too tight when it comes to grading coins 70. >>
True! Old-time cent collectors have called many cents 70 over the years, including the Wreath cent in the PCGS MS-68 RD holder.
Here is how Sheldon defined 70 back in 1949:
"A 70-coin is one in flawless Mint State, exactly as it left the dies, with perfect mint color and without a blemish or a nick."
I'm sure everyone here could take that little slice from the original scripture of numerical grading and use it to defend almost any position.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
<< <i>Here is how Sheldon defined 70 back in 1949:
"A 70-coin is one in flawless Mint State, exactly as it left the dies, with perfect mint color and without a blemish or a nick."
I'm sure everyone here could take that little slice from the original scripture of numerical grading and use it to defend almost any position. >>
Thank you! I'm glad someone with a huge reference library at their disposal chimed in, because I was wondering what the original Sheldon definition was.
On the surface it seems to favor the folks who think a 70 must be "perfect." But it gives rise to more questions than it answers.
When he says "without a blemish or a nick," is that with the unaided (naked) eye or with a certain amount of magnification (or possibly even with as much magnification as possible)?
Does "perfect mint color" mean it has to be the same color as it was when it left the mint (and therefore, toners couldn't be MS-70)?
Note also that this definition is clearly a reference to technical grading. "Exactly as it left the dies" presumably includes coins that left those dies very weakly struck. Yet few in today's market-grading world would even consider a very weakly struck coin for even 66 or 67, let alone 70, no matter how pristine.
"Mint State 60, 65, 70: Free from any trace of wear, and the color should be that of a copper coin which has been kept with great care. The color will vary from mint red to light brown or light olive, according to the chemical content and moisture of the prevailing atmosphere in which the coin has been kept. The light brown and light olive colors indicate the first beginnings of a protective patina, or surface "set." When these colors are attractively blended the coin is as highly prized by discerning collectors as is one of brighter color. For condition 60 a minor blemish, perhaps some microscopic injury, or light trace of discoloration may be tolerated. For condition 70, the coin must be exactly as it left the dies, except for a slight mellowing of the color. Condition 60 means Mint State. Condition 70 means perfect Mint State."
Later, he comments on weak strikes: "Such coins, even when in Mint State, will lack some of their detail. The cataloguer or student of coins must acquaint himself with these varieties and must learn to judge the condition of a particular cent according to the amount of actual wear after it left the dies. In this ability lies much of the skill and art of cent numismatics."
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
<< <i>Deadhorse: I just saw this thread and wanted you to answer a question.
I tried this on a much more limited basis with ASE's and it was my observation that the 70's had better strikes, especially in the lines in the robe on Miss Liberty at the top. Is that what you found or was it something else that distinguished them?
I am in the minority but I don't see the problem with a collector wanting to own a 70 over a 69..........it seems some would ridicule a collector who does and, IMHO, it seems they are trying to justify their collecting habits and/or pocketbook. I don't collect moderns but do prefer high end and have always been willing to pay for it in other series.
In answer to the original question between NGC and PCGS I can only say that when comparing NGC to PCGS it seems that NGC's 70's would mostly not make a PCGS 70 grade. Sure, there are exceptions, but the general rule is that PCGS has a higher standard (doesn't make them right per grading standards but does make them more valuable.............again, as a general rule, still need to look at the coin.
FOR THOSE WHO SAY THEY CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE, then they better stay with 69's anyway.
Have fun. >>
Yes, you are onto it. The lines at the top of the robe across the shoulders should jump out on a 70 as well as the top right shoulder line on the extended arm.
The other areas where I found strike differences were the frills at the bottom of the robe and the sandal detail. Where the robe overlaps the rays it should also give a feeling of depth, a 3 dimensional effect. Too many are flat looking in that area.
I hate to use the term "first strike", but it would seem that the earlier strikes on any given die are the ones that really stand out.
While it's not high relief in the truest sense of the word, it is that boldness that separates the 70 from the 69.
FWIW, the reverses were usually virtually the same, high end 69s or the 70s. I couldn't use that as a qualifier.
Something I left out was that my sample population contained an equal number of PCGS and NGC slabs and an equal number of 69s and 70s. The one I kept missing on was a PCGS. It really should be a 70, but I could resubmit it 100 times and never get the grade. My guess is that I'd only have to submit it to NGC perhaps 20 times to get the grade. Not worth the expense. I submitted it originally from a roll I purchashed that came from a newly opened Monster Box. Though most of them were purchased already slabbed.
The best strike of all the 70s is in an NGC slab, PCGS had the second and third slots and the other three were a toss up. The two I sold were in the last three group.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
The highest grade achieveable at PCGS for the past 4 or so years has been MS69 on MS Silver Eagles. They spot and PCGS won't slab them as MS70's. Any MS70's you see on the pop report are from the prior time period where PCGS would consider the MS70 grade (and one mechanical error where the coin is actually a Gold Eagle). But, unfortunately, I believe many of those earlier graded MS70's have spotted as well.
Wondercoin