Where is coin collecting headed?

baccaruda · February 22, 2006 10:04AM

I was in the local coin shop in Chicago and there were some young kids in the shop. They started talking about how most of their clientele is decidedly older. He said there used to be a dozen shops downtown and now that number has dwindled to just a few. He also said the typical collector was more in the 10-15 year old range 30-40 years ago. I rarely see anyone of that age in shops now.

Will coin collecting be a major hobby in 50 years as it is today? People in the 1800's collected things you probably have never considered. Collecting "Cigar bands" was very popular in the 1800's - how many cigar band collectors do you know today?

To further compound the problem is the obvious drop in the quality and beauty of coins. Even with no significant design change in the Lincoln cent since it's inception, compare a 1930's cent to a modern day cent - no comparison.

In 100 years, will most people even know that people used to collect coins?

Myqqy · February 22, 2006 10:07AM

Many folks believe that recent coin programs like the state quarters and the new nickel designs have brought in a large base of younger collectors that will support the long-term viability of numismatics...... I don't think it will ever go by the way of the cigar-band collector....

relayer · February 22, 2006 10:08AM

West

LucyBop · February 22, 2006 10:11AM

<< I was in the local coin shop in Chicago and there were some young kids in the shop. They started talking about how most of their clientele is decidedly older. He said there used to be a dozen shops downtown and now that number has dwindled to just a few. He also said the typical collector was more in the 10-15 year old range 30-40 years ago. I rarely see anyone of that age in shops now.

Will coin collecting be a major hobby in 50 years as it is today? People in the 1800's collected things you probably have never considered. Collecting "Cigar bands" was very popular in the 1800's - how many cigar band collectors do you know today?

To further compound the problem is the obvious drop in the quality and beauty of coins. Even with no significant design change in the Lincoln cent since it's inception, compare a 1930's cent to a modern day cent - no comparison.

In 100 years, will most people even know that people used to collect coins? >>

Just shudddddddddddddddup and enjoy the hobby!!!!

Smoooooch!

baccaruda · February 22, 2006 10:18AM

Just shudddddddddddddddup and enjoy the hobby!!!!

I do - and always will, but...

It's interesting to draw parallels. Cigar band collecting was popular until WWII as a matter of fact. Only a drop in cigar smoking caused the hobby to die off. Compare coins - where their very existence in the modern world have been questioned, not to mention the obvious drop in quality.

Cigar smoking has picked up considerably in the past 10 years - and the hobby is starting to pick up again, albeit slowly.

cladking · February 22, 2006 10:18AM

There are kids collecting now for the first time in generations. It's not the kind of numbers
that we'd like to see but there are millions and we'll just have to see how many stick with
it. Five years ago the hobby was doing a terrible job of encouraging these kids but it has
improved considerably.

So long as coins are made there will be at least a small base.

CoinResource · February 22, 2006 10:21AM

Interesting question...

I think you will find that many people will eventually fall out of collecting and dump common coins after some years (probably at a loss ;-0 due to online shopping).

HOWEVER, I think that more than enough people are now intrigued and the hobby will be very healthy off into the future!

I would like to see more artistry on our coins, they seem to be going for quantity and variety.

Where is our next Augustus St. Gaudens???!?!?!

Put Liberty BACK on our COINS!

baccaruda · February 22, 2006 10:27AM

Put Liberty BACK on our COINS!

I agree, but that will never happen again as it doesn't appeal to any particular special interest group. Even the quality of Silver Eagles has dropped since 1986. Check the depth of strike on a BU 1986 vs a BU 2006.

Baley · February 22, 2006 10:28AM

the two biggest recent developments since third party certification are

1) Digital photography and

2) Internet coin trading

with these firmly in place, I think coin collecting will increase in popularity.

furthermore, many of the newer collectors fascinated with modern proofs and commems and bullion will eventually become interested in older, rarer coins.

the outlook for coin collecting appears optimistic.

changes in coinage and the eventual elimination of metal coins (over the next 50 years or so)
can only help.

mrearlygold · February 22, 2006 10:35AM

Bigger and better than ever with great rarities running alongside art in terms of prices.

MrEureka · February 22, 2006 10:36AM

There will always be collectors. Probably more, maybe less. But what I find most interesting is the trend in the level of sophistication of coin buyers. We have been trending higher since the early 60's. I expect the trend to reverse within the next 10 years. It's probably a healthy thing, too.

DeputyPud · February 22, 2006 10:42AM

I read not too long ago that before the state quarter program started, the number of collectors had dwindled to less than a million, and that number has grown to over 4 million now. Hopefully a lot of those newbies will one day feel the same passion that we all feel.

I guess in a way, its our responsibility to protect what we have chosen to embrace, and be the ones that the next generation of collectors look up to for advice and support.

relayer · February 22, 2006 10:55AM

he-he-he
His name is Pud

dlimb2 · February 22, 2006 11:02AM

Down the tubes if all this mess does not straighten out!

ARCO · February 22, 2006 11:18AM

No, coin collecting is extremely nerdy and uncool. It is no way to impress the ladies or your "beer buddies". Seriously, numismatics as any sort of serious collecting endeavor does not seem to be very popular with younger people except in a most cursory way.

I find that if I do not blab on and on about coins, but just allow people to view and handle (handle properly) coins that I have, they are very interested and love the designs. Granted, this interested condition does not last long, but it is great to have old coins that are interesting to look at. The secret to not looking lame to the ladies is acting like you don't like them all that much either, but just keep a few around because they look "cool"

Tyler

MrEureka · February 22, 2006 11:23AM

The secret to not looking lame to the ladies is acting like you don't like them all that much either, but just keep a few around because they look "cool"

oh, man, I should be able to come up with a response to that one...

DeputyPud · February 22, 2006 11:28AM

Yep, the name is Pud. And I'm awfully proud of the goofy way I got tagged with that name. Some day I'll tell some of you about it at a show gathering or something.

elwood · February 22, 2006 11:32AM

<< It is no way to impress the ladies >>

Unless you're dropping 6 or 7 figures on a coin.

I do believe that most ladies like gold. (in any form)

morganbarber · February 22, 2006 11:58AM

The internet and digital photography and TPGs are killing the corner coin store, but are good for the hobby. Don't try to judge the state of the hobby by the number of bricka nd mortar coin stores in your town.

291fifth · February 22, 2006 1:25PM

My own feeling is that coin collecting will suffer much the same fate during the next twenty years as stamp collecting has suffered in the past twenty years. The big boom in stamp collecting came when FDR, an avid stamp collector, was President. That generation has now largely died off and hasn't been replaced by new collectors. There will still be a strong market for the truly nice material, but everything else will fade as the coin collector population, many of whom started collecting during the late 50's and early '60 boom, dies off.

I don't believe the state quarters program will have any lasting effect.

This is not the time to be putting your money into cleaned, damaged or low grade coins.

cullenbryant · February 22, 2006 1:39PM

Everything we deal with has a high and low spot. Stamps, Antiques, Baseball Cards etc...
all of these markets have taken a serious hit. I believe the common thread reason why
is the reproducing/flooding the market.

How does it apply to coins? well if either the mint dilutes the market or the oversees counterfeiting becomes

too prevelent we may see a downturn. Lack of confidence can hurt a rarieties market. JMO

Michigan · February 22, 2006 9:18PM

<< My own feeling is that coin collecting will suffer much the same fate during the next twenty years as stamp collecting has suffered in the past twenty years. The big boom in stamp collecting came when FDR, an avid stamp collector, was President. That generation has now largely died off and hasn't been replaced by new collectors. There will still be a strong market for the truly nice material, but everything else will fade as the coin collector population, many of whom started collecting during the late 50's and early '60 boom, dies off.

I don't believe the state quarters program will have any lasting effect.

This is not the time to be putting your money into cleaned, damaged or low grade coins. >>

I think one reason for the decline of stamp collecting is "out of sight out of mind". Fewer people use
stamps these days than in the past. Many people pay bills on line, file taxes the same way etc. When was
the last time you wrote a letter and mailed it? Email is the way many people do it today.

For many people the only thing the receive in the mail are catalogs and various kinds of junk mail.

If coins are largely replaced by debit cards in the future I think that would have a negative effect on
coin collecting.

Michigan · February 22, 2006 9:34PM

<< Bigger and better than ever with great rarities running alongside art in terms of prices.

>>

I have doubts that coins will ever achieve the price levels of the great works of art.

Art is art and coins are a manufactured commodity intended for transaction purposes. Coins are rarely
unique and even the ones that are still lack the visual appeal of the great works of art due to their
small size. (the 1933 $20 gold piece is nice but it hardly compares to a Rembrandt masterpiece and while
it brought an impressive price for a coin it was nothing compared to the great works of art.)

No doubt that coins can compete on some lower level of the art world but not the great masterpieces.
b)

MrEureka · February 22, 2006 10:17PM

No doubt that coins can compete on some lower level of the art world but not the great masterpieces.

When I go to estate auctions, I see mediocre coins selling for prices not much different than for comparably mediocre art. Makes me wonder what the high end of the art market would have looked like if museums hadn't absorbed so much of the supply. Without the museums, perhaps a 33 Saint really could have equalled a Rembrandt.

thebestMAX · February 22, 2006 10:50PM

I believe when the "Investors" got involved it ceased being a hobby to many because they were forced out due to the rapidly rising prices. This occured around the time of the Hunt brothers silver bubble. It also happened in stamp collecting.

With money seemingly more availible to some, collecting has continued on.

Hobbys used to be a cheap way of passing a lot of free time. (collecting match books, cigar bands, pocket change) TV and computers and games have taken that place today. Free money has also made a lot more outlets availible.

baccaruda · February 22, 2006 10:58PM

<< My own feeling is that coin collecting will suffer much the same fate during the next twenty years as stamp collecting has suffered in the past twenty years. The big boom in stamp collecting came when FDR, an avid stamp collector, was President. That generation has now largely died off and hasn't been replaced by new collectors. There will still be a strong market for the truly nice material, but everything else will fade as the coin collector population, many of whom started collecting during the late 50's and early '60 boom, dies off.

Good analysis. I like stamps actually - you can buy a boatload of interesting stamps for almost nothing.

partagas · February 22, 2006 11:06PM

This is one hobby that won't die like stamps. What are stamps, they are nothing more then paper. Sure some can look nice, but reallly all that glitters is gold and silver.

People haven't stopped hoarding gold and silver since it was discovered. Why should they stop 20 years from now? They won't, and what makes boring gold and silver more interesting. Rarity for what is stamped on it.

Just my 2 cents.

Gemineye · February 23, 2006 12:00AM

Where is coin collecting headed?
Straight up in my opinion..These are definetly the best years of coin collecting and it's going to get better.!!!
Maybe I'm an optimist because of the new varieties which will be issued or because I'm a Modern collector.
The TPG have also contributed a great deal to the hobby as well as the internet E-Bay...Teletrade and the like.
There are still dealers out there as well as local shows.
I enjoy collecting coins with my family as well........................................................

originalisbest · February 23, 2006 12:12AM

Coins are far less likely to suffer the fate of stamps when you consider those with precious metal content. What's more, there's never a good time to put your money into "cleaned and damaged" coins.

topstuf · February 23, 2006 12:23AM

The future economic picture will be a negative for the commoner coins and moderate buyers, but the relative durability and portability of coins should make them even PREFERABLE to fine art. Especially as terrorism increases as it is on track to do with a vengeance.

There will always be someone wanting something that no one else has.

worldcoinguy · February 23, 2006 1:47AM

I dont see coin collecting dwindling away any time soon. Nor do I see it exploding into the family room of every house in America (thankfully). I think venues like eBay have leveled the playing field with collectors and dealers, and have brought some new life to the hobby. Forums such as this one have connected collectors who previously might have only wondered through a show a few times a year, or read CoinWorld once a month. The dialog and sharing outside of the traditional coin shops and shows is a sign to me that the hobby is healthy. Granted, you can complain about eBay all day long, but I think it will continue impact the hobby in good ways. For me personally, it helped me sell my doubles for market price and fund new directions in the coin hobby.

I also think the sheer quantification of numbers, mintages, grades, etc in the hobby attracts a certain personality type. The fact that coins are produced by official means by govt entities with strict controls is an area where other hobbies fall short. Baseball/sports cards, phone cards, beanie babies, and many of the other collectibles on eBay are produced by private organizations looking to manufacture a collectible. Coins are (for the most part) produced for a purpose - commerce (although I think places like the Royal Canadian Mint pushes the commem program way too far).

carl · February 23, 2006 2:19AM

I think coin collecting will eventually go the way of stamps only not for the same reasons. Like beanie babies, baseball/football cards, stickers, cigar bands all such hobbies come and go for different reasons. I think many of the hobbies die when they get overdone such as stamps with just about everthing possible on them. Elvis for example. I stopped collecting stamps when I saw it was a never ending process of stupid stamps. Beanie babies did the same with over doing a good thing. My kid used to save baseball/football cards but when he saw that they were now being produced by the millions or maybe even billions and they were being sold by the box of 5,000 he gave up.
Now this present boom in coins is rather doomed as our entire world slowly goes more and more to electronic currency. Eventually all countries coins will not be required. In fact no currency will be required. Coins and paper moneys will be in museums and private collections only. This may sound like a thing for the distant future but then again that's what so many people thought about never ending use of film in cameras. Kodak made that mistake and is now closing many facilities.

cladking · February 23, 2006 3:02AM

It was the proliferation of stamps and baseball cards that killed them. But there are two
reasons that coins are simply different: the more important is that coins circulate and have
done so for more than 2,000 years. They are durable and very long lasting since relatively
few are ever destroyed and fewer still in their entirety. People will be drawn to collecting
them so long as they remain in circulation as a reminder of their existence. The second rea-
son is that they are artistic and historical. They can teach lessons about economics and an-
cient mining techniques. They carry far more information than beanie babies or baseball cards
and the information is of interest to a far larger and more diverse audience.

The proliferation of new coin issues is a concern but it's a concern primarily to the modern
and ultra modern markets and especially to the non-circulating segments of these. If this
proliferation became sufficiently great to cause damage the first market to fail would be the
current year offerings of the mint. It's difficult to say if and where it would spread from
there. It is my sense that we're nowhere close to this anyway. There aren't vast quantities
of pointless drivel being produced by the mint and collectors, to date, show little sign of be-
ing swamped. You'll know we're getting close when collectors are complaining about not
being able to keep up with the mint issues they collect. Obviously the abundance has already
caused many people to specialize since new issues cost upward several thousand now days.

baccaruda · February 23, 2006 3:36AM

My kid used to save baseball/football cards but when he saw that they were now being produced by the millions or maybe even billions and they were being sold by the box of 5,000 he gave up.

The best way to destroy a hobby is to let adults in on it.

I remember baseball card collecting when they had no value. I bought them anyway. I bought them, collected every series each year, sorted through them numerous times, invented games with them, and best of all wrapped them in rubber bands for trading at school.

Then adults discovered there was profit to be reaped. The hobby has essentially gone straight into the toilet since then.

Do people collect coins today because they actually enjoy coins - or because they only see their market value? The day I no longer pull out my sets of coins just to look at them without thinking "how much is that worth?" will be the day I stop collecting. I think that's the pivotal question.

originalisbest · February 23, 2006 4:12AM

Actually, I enjoy collecting vintage baseball cards in nicer grades very much. The fact that I don't rubber band them and jam them in my pockets doesn't mean I like them less, much as I don't choose to carry my coin collection around in my pockets and crudely scratch my initials into them.

Burks · February 23, 2006 4:14AM

<< 

I remember baseball card collecting when they had no value. I bought them anyway. I bought them, collected every series each year, sorted through them numerous times, invented games with them, and best of all wrapped them in rubber bands for trading at school.
. >>

Yup. I remember every week my dad had 2 or 3 boxes of baseball cards for us to go through. That eventually went down to one box...then a few packs.....then a pack.....now neither of us has bought a pack of cards in years. It's not our financial situation that keeps us from buying them, but the insane prices. Our money can be spent better on other hobbies. 5 cards for $3-$4 is just stupid.

Coin collecting has no where to go but up. With the popularity is has gained over the past few years, I see it staying that way for years to come.

renman95 · February 23, 2006 4:27AM

Collectors have been collecting coins for 2,000 years. Look at all the nice Roman and Greek coins, truly historical, are still had a great prices. Some European coins of the 17th and 18th centuries look like they were minted during our "golden age." There will always be core collectors. Fads will spike and fade, but overall macro-trends are up. Gold and silver coins from any nation will always be collected.
Designs have to get better in the US for our current mini-trend to continue. I feel the State-quarters will have limited appeal after 2010 when everyone realizes how many tons of rolls there are in everyones vault. Experts predicted the end after 1964. Sans-silver coinage was going to be the death of the industry. But look at how many truly rare clads since the 1970's...no-S proofs, DD, platinums. On the flip side, the average modern coin isn't going to be worth much if there are 100's of millions and billions available with only a million collectors chasing them. The US classics will be held up by the "core."

baccaruda · February 23, 2006 5:26AM

That eventually went down to one box...then a few packs.....then a pack.....now neither of us has bought a pack of cards in years. It's not our financial situation that keeps us from buying them, but the insane prices. Our money can be spent better on other hobbies. 5 cards for $3-$4 is just stupid.

That's what I'm getting at. I'm not saying you have to wrap your cards in rubber bands to be a real collector.

I remember paying 20-25¢ per pack for cards. I'd take them home and determine which I needed for my set. I'd trade the others or try to get extras of a player I liked.

Now there's 100 diferent sets, and 10 different subsets for each - and the price of each pack is far out of the average kid's reach.

earlwbollinger · February 23, 2006 6:03AM

It is still hard to tell with coins, maybe up maybe down.
When I was a kid going through change was great, looking through relatives coin jars was like finding treasure.
But back then you could still find Indian Head cents, old silver, etc.
So kids had something to search for.
Now the kids don't really have anything to look for. Yeah state quarters big deal. Something's missing, I am not sure what.
But I think coins have somewhat gone up in price a lot, the investors seemingly have gone crazy. But then as a kid I remember seeing outragreously priced coins, so it probably hasn't changed all that much over the years with inflation and all.
I still don't know quite what to think of all the collectors pricing modern coins up in the stratosphere, especially for the "Holy Grail MS70" coins.

I think the bag and roll collectors are probably in the same mindset as the unopened box of trading cards collectors. If you open the package, you lose the allure that it might have the ultimate rare item in it. So it is worth more unopened than opened and checked out to only be disapointed. Applying logic might cause the whole market to collapse.

Stamps just overdid it, you now have what, maybe 50-60 new different stamp designs a year. It starts to turn into a hassle trying to get a complete collection. Plus we haven't even gotten into the world stamps either. I think it diluted the whole point of collecting with all the different stamps coming out constantly.

When I was a kid, we didn't have computers, the internet, video games, cell phones, et cetera. Nowadays you have all that competition for a kids attention. It sort of makes coin collecting look dull and boring now in comparison.
The old coin shop was great, I do miss those, but more and more are disappearing as time goes on. I think the internet does take away from that, as it now provides a huge market and potential customer base that wasn't there before. I remember going to a coin store for a coin auctions and those would all be for the limited area you were in, seldom would someone from farther away would join in. With the internet that potential is much greater now. So having a coin store front becomes less and less a issue.
Thus we lose the classic junk coin cans or boxes that kids love to rummage through.

Conder101 · February 23, 2006 6:21AM

<< He also said the typical collector was more in the 10-15 year old range 30-40 years ago. >>

Interesting, when I started collecting at the age of 11 thirty five years ago, the average age was in the mid 50's. I've been collecting continously since then and the average age is STILL in the mid 50's. I joined the local coin club in 1975 as the youngest member by a lage margin. I am still a member but most of the members from the time I joined are dead now. I am still one of the younger members but there are more that are younger than me than their used to be.

There have NEVER been a lot of young people at coin shows. Get some old publications that have pictures of coin shows. Look at the people in the pictures from the 1940's or 50's. What do you see? Old white guys. You will see dealers in their apparent late forties, some older, and a lot of white males in their forties, fifties, and sixties. Read the articles and you will hear the same moaning that we do today that there aren't enough young people entering the hobby. Well almost everyone from those pictures is dead today, and the hobby is bigger than ever.

I'm not too worried about coin collecting. I think it is still healty and will remain so as long as the mint doen't burn everyone out by overproducing to large a variety of coin designs and set/holder options. That is what I think truly killed Stamp collecting. When FDR starting getting them to produce more and more designs, and they learned that the collector is a sucker, they just got carried away. 100 new designs each year and you can get each of them as singles, sheets, coils, different perf counts, first day covers, plate blocks, booklets. You can get 700 items just for one year. Then next year do it all over again! I there any wonder the collectors switched to the older material or quit. And then if you DID buy all that stuff, years later you find that you can sell it for 80% of the face value. If you can find a stamp dealer, you can still buy unused bulk stamps from the 1930's for 90 to 95% of face and use it as postage.

cladking · February 23, 2006 6:44AM

<< When I was a kid going through change was great, looking through relatives coin jars was like finding treasure.
But back then you could still find Indian Head cents, old silver, etc.
So kids had something to search for.
Now the kids don't really have anything to look for. Yeah state quarters big deal. Something's missing, I am not sure what.
>>

When I started going through pocket change in the mid-'50's there was nothing of much value. Anything
with a numismatic premium had been pulled out and there was zero chance of happening upon a real rar-
ity which was worth hundreds or thousands of dollars. The best you might find was a well worn '09-S VDB
worth seventy or eighty dollars and this was so far-fetched as to be laughable. What was in circulation was
the picked over remains from millions of coin collectors. Grades could be fairly high since large numbers of
coins were set aside every year and a few would trickle back into circulation. You could earn a few extra
dollars finding cents that could be sold for 10c or a quarter but this was no easy fete.

Today things are very different. It's not at all unusual to find coins in circulation worth a premium. There are
still very few people looking so rare coins can circulate right alongside common coins. Many modern rarities
have been pulled out of circulation and some have sold for prices up to $80,000. But, the real opportunity
and fun is not so much in the $20 coins or the very unlikely $80,000 coins, it is the coins which still have a
very small numismatic premium. These are often just regular issues in nice condition or they are varieties
in better than typical condition. There are large numbers of the modern varieties which are very rare. It is
very improbable that so few of these were made and in all probability many are waiting to be found. Certain-
ly there is nothing unusual about finding varieties though I've found only one of the rarities so far.

There's really nothing missing because people are starting to look at all these coins. It used to be that there
was never any indication that anyone was checking pocket change but now it's seen all the time. It's seen in
the presorting of rolls you get at the bank. It's impossible to get a roll of almost all 1977 dimes unless some-
one sorted these coins and then released them. It's seen in the huge numbers of folders to house these
coins being sold by book stores and coin shops and it's even seen in the recent disappearance of substantial
numbers of better dates and higher grades from circulation. It's seen in the huge numbers of new states
quarters and westward journey nickel collectors and the fact that people are often seen checking their change
now. It's seen at the banks where people are asking for rolls of coins and in the media which is offering coins
in every venue.

This may not interest many advanced collectors but it does interest many who collect or deal in related coins
and it might say something about the future since many of these collectors are much younger.

Where is coin collecting headed?

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