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MTG: Alpha Set Weighting
AbsolutJake
Posts: 72
So, I've been out of the loop for the past year. But now I'm back and I noticed that the Alpha Magic set received weightings. I'm just wondering what factors we're taken into consideration. Does anyone know how these were done or who can explain them. For the big items, like the P9, the weights are high, which makes sense, but the weighting for the rest of the set is somewhat scattered. Can anyone provide insight on how these decisions might have been made?
Jake
Jake
0
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I have a few alpha cards that are upgrades for you.
Animate dead 9
castle 9
chaoslace 9
island sanctuary 9
savannah lions 9
Also, Michael, I have about 30 psa 9 cards that are upgrades for you. Email me if you want a list.
Either way guys, these cards are available for sale or trade. If no, I'll list them on ebay at some point. Let me know.
"spacebaby" on ebay
For those that don't know, here are the exact numbers for the Alpha set:
Total: 295 cards (116 Rares, 95 Uncommons, 74 Commons and 10 Basic Lands)
Rarity:
There were 1,100 of each rare printed.
There were 4,500 of each uncommon printed.
There were 16,000 of each common printed.
There were 85,500 of each basic land printed.
Take a minute and think about that. To provide additional perspective, there were 18,000 of each Unlimited rare printed. That means there are just about as many Alpha commons as there are Unlimited Rares.
Ok, now let's look at the current weighting system. Most rares are weighted the same as basic lands. You see where I'm going with this? A card that was printed 1,100 times weighs the same as a card that was printed 85 thousand times.
Now let's think about the printing problems in Alpha. Good news and bad news here. Bad news, the printers, especially the part that did centering, were really bad. The good news however is that the printing problems mainly affected only certain cards but it affected nearly 99% of the copies of that card. Meaning that many cards came out fine, while others almost always came out miscut or with print marks.
Ok, so I'm working on a new system that I will list as soon as I'm comfortable with it. Probably going to take a week or so because I want to get input from some of my other hardcore oldschool magic buddies. It will look something like this. The scale will remain 1 to 10. All cards will have a base weight. 1 for lands, 2 for commons, 3 for uncommons and 4 for rares. Then I will have two modifiers. One, I will call popularity. This will range from +1 to +6. For example the lotus will be an obvious 10 total score (4 because it's rare than +6 because everyone and their mother played it). The popularity modifier will be constructed from several factors. One, was it immeidiately OOP after unlimited. How many deck types used it? Was it a card used in many deck or just certain kinds. As well as any other factors that would have made this card more playable and thus harder to find in good condition. The 2nd modifier will be a bonus 1 or maybe 2 points for printing problems. I'm probably going to go with one point here as I think it will create the best balance and continuity throughout.
Ok, so what do you guys think. Am I crazy?
Jake
Keep in mind what is the goal of PSA set registry : The goal is to put the most 20 desirable sets in the top of the registry. For exemple some one the have the 10 P9 PSA 10 should be higher in the scale than someone that have a set of common/land PSA 9. But it s not the case. So already this is not fair. But if a lace get weight of 4 and a ward weight 3 ... What a shivan or a bird will weight ? i would say minimum 7 ? So 2 wards and a lace will weight same as the Lotus ?
Or any 2 "good" rare will wait more than any P9 ?
Think that the 9 P9 worth in value and for any poeple that know magic more the 50% of the complete set.
You need to reflect this in the weighting system no ?
This is the goal of the weighting a set. To make the most valuable cards worth more than the less valuable.
You need no only to compare 2 cards together but you need to compare a card with the whole set.
Now i 100 % agree i like 2 times more a ward than a land ... However i like 1000 times more a lotus than a ward.
you need to refect this with a scale of 1-10 for the whole set , that is the problem ...
So if i think that there is some minor thing we should change in alpha/beta/unlimited weighting, i think the actual weighting is not that bad
Bastien
Relevant Bits
"Grade Points, Set Ratings and Weighting
Set rankings are determined by the grades of the items in the set, the "weight" assigned to each item in the set, and the set's completeness. Each item within the set is assigned a item rating based on the value of the item in NM-MT condition. For example, a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle would have a much stronger rating than a 1952 Topps common and, therefore, be given more weight in evaluating the set as a whole. Most sets are broken down using a 1-10 scale, with 10 being the greatest weight. Some sets feature ultra-rare items. Those items will command a much higher weighting according to their relative rarity. If the set is very small with little variation in individual item prices, then the scale may be 1-5. Weighting for each set is viewable by clicking on the set composite link found on each set page.
Then, using the individual item ratings, the grade of each item, the completion percentage and set size, a unique formula is created for each set in the registry. To be specific, the weighted grade point average is determined by multiplying the grade of each item listed in a set by the weight of the item. (Note that for calculation purposes a non-graded authenticated item receives a default grade of 3.) Then these totals are summed and divided by the total sum for weights of those items. The final set rating is achieved by dividing the weighted grade sum by the total sum of the weights in the entire set. Now, while this is NOT an exact science, the formula should provide an accurate evaluation of each set registered on our site. This means you can compare your prized sets to the best the hobby has to offer.
Additionally, the following point deductions are taken for Qualifiers. For example, if your card or ticket is graded PSA 9Q, the grade calculation in the Registry will be 7.
9Q = -2
8Q = -2
7Q = -2
6Q = -2
5Q = -2
4Q = -2
3Q = -1
2Q = -1
1Q = no deduction"
Current Alpha Weights You can access these for any set from the main screen with the list of collection for each set by clicking the View Set Composition Link near the bottom of the page.
who determined the weights of the cards? PSA?
http://www.crystalkeep.com/magic/misc/rarity-info.php
Bastien
I agree that the weights on the alpha beta and unlimited sets should be revisited. I would like to point out a few things that I feel are appropriate comments.
1) Centering problems, printing problems, etc. with the alpha set should have no impact on the weights. These factors are all included in the actual grade of the card. That is why it is so much harder to get an alpha 10 than an unlimited 10. The weights are to diffrentiate between the "relative" importance of cards within the set.
2) The proportion of R, U, & C cards are the almost exactly the same for each of the A,B,U sets. For every 1 rare there are:
Alpha: 1 R ; 4.08 U ; 14.55 C ; 154.54 L
Beta : 1 R ; 4.21 U ; 15 C ; 160.78 L
Unlim : 1R ; 3.67 U ; 13.19 C ; 141.48L
Proportionally, beta rares are even less common than alpha, which are less common than unlimited. Either way thay are all statistically very similar distribututions. Additonally, when considering "play" value a shivan is a shivan and a firebreathing is a firebreathing no matter what edition you're considering. The weight of those two cards relative to each other is the same no matter what editions. This is why the weighting should be similar among the editions too.
3) Based on the above proportions, tha actual number of cards printed does not matter at all when considering weights. While actual of numbers printed do greatly influence the availability of cards, its not the weights that they should affect. The lower print runs actually do affect the populations of a given card in a particular grade. The are the following PSA 10 black lotus : alpha (2), beta (4), unlimited (17). Here is where the print run makes a difference. The populations of valuable alphas will always be lower than beta or unlimited. It is in the grading and populations that the "availability" factors gets input into the set ratings. Weights simply amplify these grades when applied to the set as a whole.
4) I feel very strongly that there should be continuity between the A,B, U set weights. With the exception of two cards missing fom alpha, they are exactly the same cards, albeit printed in different amounts. I've addressed that above. Therefore, the set weights should be very very similar.
5) Another thing I will resist is the idea that a formula can be put together that can be used to calculate weights. There are simply so many factors that affect this that such a system would grow quite cumbersome. If we try to analyze all the factors that make a card desirable and build that into an algorithim, it would be impossible to build a consensus. Again, I want to reiterate my previous position that the look at weight in a linear fashion like you propose is wrong. I feel that the weights should be logrithmic in nature.
6) How does consultation with other "old scholol hardcore buddies" have any impact upon psa set weights. The opinions that matter are the ones of the people who actully grade, buy, and register cards on this registry. While your friend are certainly entitled to an opinion, I personally value what you, Jared, Len, Michael, Bastien, etc. thinks far more. You and Jared are two of the oldest registry participants and Michael myself and Bastien have the number one sets in the three respective catagories. So whose opinion is right???? The answer is all of us. Therefore, it is important that we all come to a consensus on set weights. This actually worked very well on the Arabians set and it can work here.
Finally, am I right or am I full of crap? Please let me know. All comments from everyone are truely welcome.
"spacebaby" on ebay
I have to vote full of crap simply because I have been sick with a case of pnumonia the last week and a half and I feel the need to share the misery.
Actually, as a person that gave VIRTUALLY ZERO input to the weighting process, I find that other than in a couple of instances the weights are just fine. As long as we are limited to a 1-10 scale, the majority of the cards cannot weigh more than the minimum regardless of production numbers or rarity. For comparison, take the famous 1952 Topps baseball set. This is the set that has Mickey Mantles rookie card. His card, #311, is in the last series of the set and was shortprinted like the rest of that series. Not only do you have arguably the most popular player ever (ie. Black Lotus) and the most expensive modern card (> $100,000 in PSA 10) you will see that this card only rates a 10 on the weighting scale.
The weights on alpha were already established before I had any input also. My point was to simply ask that the alpha weights be used for both the beta and unlimited sets. Do you disagree with this?
Second question, do you agree that the relative number of cards printed impacts the populations and grades available in any edition? If so, do you agree or disagree that given the impact on grades that the number of cards printed should have no bearing on weights?
Third, Are you bustin my chops and crapin on my parade just so I can join you in your misery?
"spacebaby" on ebay
Most of the time with a scale given we all agree on weight.
The main problem is the scale we take.
Like for the arabian i first did with 1-10 scale. And Steven did with a 1-5 scale. But if i divided my scale by 2 for all the cards, i had the same weight as Steven almost.
So with a scale given we all agree.
First i was thinking a scale 1-10 is better for all the set but now i think that the scale 1-10 should be kept for the difficult to weight set only.
What do you think of the arabian weight Jake ?
Bastien
Here are some of my thoughts:
1) I agree that the starting point for the A/B/U weights should be the same and by consequence that it is the ratio of cards printed that important, rather than the absolute number of cards printed in an actual set. The weightings are designed to work within a set, not between sets. So the fact that there are more Unlimited Lotuses than Alpha Lotuses is irrelevant for the separate weighting of the Alpha and Unlimited sets.
2) The contribution of the condition of cards comes in via the grade of the card in the set, and so shouldn't affect the weighting of the card if it's hard to get a high graded card. (Currently its pretty much impossible to determine how hard any 1 card is to get because populations are so low anyway).
3) I think everything should start off with a grade of 1 unless there is good reason for it not to be 1. There are lots of good reasons for cards not to be 1. Taking unlimited as an example, given there are potentially 16,500 of each rare, and about 3 or 4 serious collectors at the moment, giving a card a higher waiting "just" because it's a rare rather than a common doesn't make much sense.
4) Market Value / Price is a good proxy for Supply/Demand issues which determine how hard to get a card is (ignoring it's condition).
5) Overall, you'd expect a card with a higher overall rating to be more desireable than one with a lower rating . One way to do it would be say a land is worth 1 and a Lotus is worth 1,000 (say - or whatever a reasonable maximum weight might be) give each card a number from 1 - 10000. Once you've done this divide the weight by 100 and round up to the next integer (assuming you can't have non-integer weights!). I think the problem with the MTG sets is the best card is more than 10 times more desirable than the 'worst' cards, this removes this issue when coming up with the weights (but obviously it still remains in practice!).
Overall, I'm happy enough with the current weights - the more desirable cards have a higher weight than the less desirable ones, the P9 are higher than the rest and the main rares are slightly higher weighted than the other cards. You can generally pick up a set of commons and uncommons for the same price of a few the key rares in the same condition so this feels about right.
If we were going to chance the weights they'd need to be radically different to the current ones for it to make any difference to ratings that sets got, do people really think the current weightings are radically wrong? If not, then I'm not sure I see much point in going through the agony of discussing it all over again.
Jake
I don't really have too much to add that I haven't already posted before (thanks for the link, Michael). My reason for chiming in is to give you all a little "heads up" in case you were unaware. PSA is currently revisiting the whole 1-10 weighting system and asking for Registry member input. Specifically, they are wondering if people would like to see the system changed to 1-20, 1-50, 1-100, etc. There is a thread on this topic, along with a poll, over in the Set Registry forum. I am not sure how you all feel about this, but it does open up some more weighting options, if you are so inclined. As such, I figured it had bearing on this discussion, so I thought I'd mention it here.
Personally, I like the current 1-10 system; it allows for recognition of "key" cards in a set, without degenerating into a vast discussion of whether a particular card should be worth, say, 47... or 48 points (LOL). In addition, it helps to keep the focus on "set" collecting, rather than "key card" collecting. For instance, Len's Black Lotus is spectacular - I doubt anyone here would disagree. Does it deserve to be worth more weight in the set rankings than other cards? Absolutely. Does a set consisting of JUST that card deserve to be ranked higher than one made up of over 100 cards that happen to be mostly commons and uncommons, along with some simple rares? I would say no - while a great card, the focus of the Registry is SET collecting. A larger weighting would put too much emphasis on key cards, at the expense of the overall set, in my opinion. Of course, some (or all) of you may disagree with me - and that's OK; one of my main rewards in helping to get this little online community of ours going is being able to have these discussions with all of you. Truth be told, my wife really doesn't care to sit around and talk about the relative merits of a 1-100 point weighting system and how it is impacted by the Black Lotus (I bet you're all stunned, but it's true).
So that being said, if you have an opinion on the Registry weighting issue, please let PSA know - VOTE and voice your mind. Even if you don't agree with me
On the other hand, if you do agree, then vote twice
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
Yes i agree to for exemple to me shivan is more close to the badland than to the mountain so like badland it should get weight of 2. However the lace is more close to the flight than to the underground sea !
Bastien
Yes Steve, I am trying to share the love while bustin your balls at the same time
Yet we must march on.
"spacebaby" on ebay
but with Rudy /Len /Jake that own 95 % of the cards needed to make it even if someone put 100 000 USD on the table i don t think it will be ever made
Throw in a tall Amber Bach and who needs a Copper Tablet, right?
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
<< <i>Last time I checked, that Copper Tablet and 1 of 1 Pestilence are both LOCKED in MY 1100 pound vault! >>
Be careful about trusting those POP numbers in the registry listings. There are at least 2 of those PSA 10 Pestilence thingies.
Bastien and I recently talked about how the Arabian lists weren't updated either. The POP reports seem to be accurate though.
A problem that needs to be reported to the list keepers?
Are you sayng the information between the Set Registry and Population Reports can be different for no "good" reason?
I read this on another forum page some time ago so do not shoot the messenger if it is not correct.
Was yours (Pestilence) a recent grading Len? Mine was graded back in July 2005. I guess the population report still shows one for that as well as the registry list.
The Arabian that Bastien and I were discussing has since been corrected, but the condition existed for some time.
I had a similar experience with Michael and his Mons's Goblin Raiders this summer. When he had his set graded, he received the first 10 for that card. I posted mine a few weeks later but it took almost a week for the site to recognize the 2nd card at that grade so we both showed having a 1 of 1 for about a week.
bastien
Grade = 10
Pop = 1/0
That's right, there's none like it...
Take it easy,
Jared
PS - I was going to mention Tony's Pestilence, but I wasn't sure if some trading had been going on. Remember, "he who controls the Pestilence controls the world".
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
Tony, as Len said I graded the 2nd psa 10 pestilence. I got the grades Tuesday on that card and the antiquities that I graded. My experience is as Len stated. The cards show up to be registered in 24 hours, but it ususally takes a week or so for the populations and the pop report to be updated.
If you guys look at the antiquities I just registered you'll see that I have several 10's that show populations of zero. If they show populations of 1 on Monday (Tuesday if PSA observes President's day) then we know their time table for updating the pop reports.
Here's a interesting story. When Tony first listed his betas he paired up about 10 of my 1/1 beta rares. The populations showed only one copy. Bastien emailed me about it and wondered if someone had stolen the cert numbers for my betas. When I saw them I said "damn" Osguard got some good grades and paired some of my very best 1/1 betas
There should be a pretty big adjustment to the Antiquities pops once they're upgraded. I graded quite a few. Got some nice 10's, alot of 9's and a few too many 8's. Those 8's are gonna be almost worthless. I'll be lucky to recoup my gradin fees. Anyone interested in antiquities 8's?
"spacebaby" on ebay
At the begin when i started collecting the graded cards, i was looking at Steven set 3 times a week to see if he upgraded or what cards was missing in PSA 9-10. I have always hated the PSA 8 in Steven s set !
Now 3 unco only are PSA 8 ... We should help him to remouve those 3 PSA 8
Make the SACRIFICE of one of your PSA 9 for a good KARMA and i am sure the WALL OF WATER will come by himself
Tromagic
That damn wall of water is harder to find than you think. Just about every time I go search ebay I look for a wall of water to grade. None have been worthwhile. The same is true with sacrifice. Karma is another story. There is only one Karma graded higher than 8. It's a PSA 9 that Tony has. Karma is almost always cut shifted right. I have never seen one that was well centered. My Karma is perfect, but the shift is so bad it got an 8.
Anyway, if anyone has or finds a PSA 9 Sacrifice, Karma, or Wall of Water, I'll trade you a Lotus for it. Just Kidding. However, I will trade for thase as rares just to be rid of those 8's. Help me out if you can.
"spacebaby" on ebay
<< <i>"he who controls the Pestilence controls the world". >>
It was fun while it lasted!
"HE WHO CONTROLS KARMA CONTROLS THE WORLD!" Nah...that' doesn't sound quite as good, does it?
Although...if "My Name is Earl" increases in popularity, so may Karma as well...
Of course, if you flip to SciFi you have "Battlestar Galactica"...
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
"spacebaby" on ebay
Actually, I had some cards lying around that I hadn't bothered to add to my registries yet, so I finally took care of them so I could file them away (and make more room in my desk for the current projects
Steven - a Lotus for a PSA 10 Wall of Water??? Doh, wish I hadn't traded mine to Tony!!
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
Well then, just forget it
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
There has been alot of discussions about tweaking the weights for the a/b/u sets. Most of us agree that cards like the shivan or vesuvan are simply more important than a common and deserve greater weights. Please find enclosed a list of proposed weights. While I didn't change the weighting dramatically, some changes were made to reflect the higher value and desirability of many high end cards. I didn't go too far because I believe the current weights are close. I ran these by Len and I think he agrees they are appropriate. Please respond with your input.
AIR ELEMENTAL 1
ANCESTRAL RECALL 9
ANIMATE ARTIFACT 1
ANIMATE DEAD 1
ANIMATE WALL 1
ANKH OF MISHRA 1
ARMAGEDDON 2
ASPECT OF WOLF 1
BAD MOON 1
BADLANDS 3
BALANCE 2
BASALT MONOLITH 1
BAYOU 3
BENALISH HERO 1
BERSERK 2
BIRDS OF PARADISE 3
BLACK KNIGHT 1
BLACK LOTUS 10
BLACK VISE 1
BLACK WARD 1
BLAZE OF GLORY 1
BLESSING 1
BLUE ELEMENTAL BLAST 1
BLUE WARD 1
BOG WRAITH 1
BRAINGEYSER 1
BURROWING 1
CAMOUFLAGE 1
CASTLE 1
CELESTIAL PRISM 1
CHANNEL 1
CHAOS ORB 4
CHAOSLACE 1
CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: BLACK 1
CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: BLUE 1
CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: GREEN 1
CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: RED 1
CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: WHITE 1
CLOCKWORK BEAST 1
CLONE 1
CCKATRICE 1
CONSECRATE LAND 1
CONSERVATOR 1
CONTRACT FROM BELOW 1
CONTROL MAGIC 1
CONVERSION 1
COPPER TABLET 1
COPY ARTIFACT 1
COUNTERSPELL 1
CRAW WURM 1
CREATURE BOND 1
CRUSADE 1
CRYSTAL ROD 1
CURSED LAND 1
CYCLOPEAN TOMB 2
DARK RITUAL 1
DARKPACT 1
DEATH WARD 1
DEATHGRIP 1
DEATHLACE 1
DEMONIC ATTORNEY 1
DEMONIC HORDES 1
DEMONIC TUTOR 2
DINGUS EGG 1
DISENCHANT 1
DISINTEGRATE 1
DISRUPTING SCEPTER 1
DRAGON WHELP 1
DRAIN LIFE 1
DRAIN POWER 1
DRUDGE SKELETONS 1
DWARVEN DEMOLITION TEAM 1
DWARVEN WARRIORS 1
EARTH ELEMENTAL 1
EARTHBIND 1
EARTHQUAKE 1
ELVISH ARCHERS 1
EVIL PRESENCE 1
FALSE ORDERS 1
FARMSTEAD 1
FASTBOND 2
FEAR 1
FEEDBACK 1
FIRE ELEMENTAL 1
FIREBALL 1
FIREBREATHING 1
FLASHFIRES 1
FLIGHT 1
FOG 1
FORCE OF NATURE 2
FORCEFIELD 4
FOREST (3 VERSIONS) 1
FORK 2
FROZEN SHADE 1
FUNGUSAUR 1
GAEAS LIEGE 1
GAUNTLET OF MIGHT 4
GIANT GROWTH 1
GIANT SPIDER 1
GLASSES OF URZA 1
GLOOM 1
GOBLIN BALLOON BRIGADE 1
GOBLIN KING 1
GRANITE GARGOYLE 1
GRAY OGRE 1
GREEN WARD 1
GRIZZLY BEARS 1
GUARDIAN ANGEL 1
HEALING SALVE 1
HELM OF CHATZUK 1
HILL GIANT 1
THE HIVE 1
HOLY ARMOR 1
HOLY STRENGTH 1
HOWL FROM BEYOND 1
HOWLING MINE 1
HURLOON MINOTAUR 1
HURRICANE 1
HYPNOTIC SPECTER 1
ICE STORM 1
ICY MANIPULATOR 2
ILLUSIONARY MASK 4
INSTILL ENERGY 1
INVISIBILITY 1
IRON STAR 1
IRONCLAW ORCS 1
IRONROOT TREEFOLK 1
ISLAND (3 VERSIONS) 1
ISLAND SANCTUARY 1
IVORY CUP 1
JADE MONOITH 1
JADE STATUE 1
JAYEMDAE TOME 1
JUGGERNAUT 1
JUMP 1
KARMA 1
KELDON WARLORD 1
KORMUS BELL 1
KUDZU 1
LANCE 1
LEY DRUID 1
LIBRARY OF LENG 1
LICH 2
LIFEFORCE 1
LIFELACE 1
LIFETAP 1
LIGHTNING BOLT 1
LIVING ARTIFACT 1
LIVING LANDS 1
LIVING WALL 1
LLANOWAR ELVES 1
LORD OF ATLANTIS 1
LORD OF THE PIT 1
LURE 1
MAGICAL HACK 1
MAHAMOTI DJINN 1
MANA FLARE 1
MANA SHORT 1
MANA VAULT 2
MANABARBS 1
MEEKSTONE 1
MERFOLK OF THE PEARL TRI 1
MESA PEGASUS 1
MIND TWIST 2
MONSS GOBLIN RAIDERS 1
MOUNTAIN (3 VERSIONS) 1
MOX EMERALD 8
MOX JET 8
MOX PEARL 8
MOX RUBY 8
MOX SAPPHIRE 9
NATURAL SELECTION 1
NETHER SHADOW 1
NETTLING IMP 1
NEVINYRRALS DISK 2
NIGHTMARE 1
NORTHERN PALADIN 1
OBSIANUS GOLEM 1
ORCISH ARTILLERY 1
ORCISH ORIFLAMME 1
PARALYZE 1
PEARLED UNICORN 1
PERSONAL INCARNATION 1
PESTILENCE 1
PHANTASMAL FORCES 1
PHANTASMAL TERRAIN 1
PHANTOM MONSTER 1
PIRATE SHIP 1
PLAGUE RATS 1
PLAINS (3 VERSIONS) 1
PLATEAU 3
POWER LEAK 1
POWER SINK 1
POWER SURGE 1
PRODIGAL SORCERER 1
PSIONIC BLAST 1
PSYCHIC VENOM 1
PURELACE 1
RAGING RIVER 1
RAISE DEAD 1
RED ELEMENTAL BLAST 1
RED WARD 1
REGENERATION 1
REGROWTH 1
RESURRECTION 1
REVERSE DAMAGE 1
RIGHTEOUSNESS 1
ROC OF KHER RIDGES 1
ROCK HYDRA 1
ROD OF RUIN 1
ROYAL ASSASSIN 2
SACRIFICE 1
SAMITE HEALER 1
SAVANNAH 3
SAVANNAH LIONS 1
SCATHE ZOMBIES 1
SCAVENGING GHOUL 1
SCRUBLAND 3
SCRYB SPRITES 1
SEA SERPENT 1
SEDGE TROLL 1
SENGIR VAMPIRE 1
SERRA ANGEL 2
SHANODIN DRYADS 1
SHATTER 1
SHIVAN DRAGON 3
SIMULACRUM 1
SINKHOLE 1
SIRENS CALL 1
SLEIGHT OF MIND 1
SMOKE 1
SOL RING 2
SOUL NET 1
SPELL BLAST 1
STASIS 1
STEAL ARTIFACT 1
STONE GIANT 1
STONE RAIN 1
STREAM OF LIFE 1
SUNGLASSES OF URZA 1
SWAMP (3 VERSIONS) 1
SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES 1
TAIGA 3
TERROR 1
THICKET BASILISK 1
THOUGHTLACE 1
THRONE OF BONE 1
TIMBER WOLVES 1
TIME VAULT 3
TIME WALK 8
TIMETWISTER 7
TRANQUILITY 1
TROPICAL ISLAND 3
TSUNAMI 1
TUNDRA 3
TUNNEL 1
TWIDDLE 1
TWO-HEADED GIANT 2
UNDERGROUND SEA 3
UNHOLY STRENGTH 1
UNSUMMON 1
UTHDEN TROLL 1
VERDURAN ENCHANTRESS 1
VESUVAN DOPPELGANGER 3
VETERAN BODYGUARD 1
VOLCANIC ERUPTION 1
VOLCANIC ISLAND 3
WALL OF AIR 1
WALL OF BONE 1
WALL OF BRAMBLES 1
WALL OF FIRE 1
WALL OF ICE 1
WALL OF STONE 1
WALL OF SWORDS 1
WALL OF WATER 1
WALL OF WOOD 1
WANDERLUST 1
WAR MAMMOTH 1
WARP ARTIFACT 1
WATER ELEMENTAL 1
WEAKNESS 1
WEB 1
WHEEL OF FORTUNE 2
WHITE KNIGHT 1
WHITE WARD 1
WILD GROWTH 1
WILL-O-THE-WISP 1
WINTER ORB 1
WOODEN SPHERE 1
WORD OF COMMAND 2
WRATH OF GOD 3
ZOMBIE MASTER 1
Total 419
"spacebaby" on ebay
Nice job - I like these weightings MUCH better than the current ones. The tweaks are minor, but better reflect high demand cards without straying too far from the current theme of rewarding OOP's. I have 2 questions/ suggestions...
#1. The focus of the weightings is still tilted towards OOP's vs. $ value (I agree). That being said, why was Psionic Blast dropped from 2 to 1 and Berserk from a 3 to a 2? Are you thinking that to get a bump a card must be both rare and OOP, verses just uncommon/ common and OOP? If that is your reasoning then I'm OK with this; it also explains Ice Storm and Sinkhole as 1's.
#2. Time Vault was left at 3, but Chaos Orb was raised to a 4? I'm not sure if I agree with that. There are 12 rare OOP artifacts: 6 are P9's, and then there's Forcefield, Gauntlet, Mask, Vault, Chaos and Cyclopean. 5 of these are sought after cards that are played, 1 isn't. I can see the merits of giving all of them a base of 2 because of their OOP status, and then a bump based off of demand. That being said, I would rather see all of them as 4's OR 3's (sans Cyclopean, of course).
Overall I like this weighting and it seems to fall out something like this...
+1 for being an OOP rare
+1 for being high demand
+1 for being a "signature" card - BoP, Shivan, WoG, Vesuvan, Dual lands, Gauntlet, Forcefield, Mask, Chaos Orb (Time Vault?)
And of course the "big bonus" goes to the Power Nine (as it should be
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
AIR ELEMENTAL 1
ANCESTRAL RECALL 9
ANIMATE ARTIFACT 1
ANIMATE DEAD 1
ANIMATE WALL 1
ANKH OF MISHRA 1
ARMAGEDDON 2
ASPECT OF WOLF 1
BAD MOON 1
BADLANDS 3
BALANCE 2
BASALT MONOLITH 1
BAYOU 3
BENALISH HERO 1
BERSERK 2 It s just an unco but very powerfull and not reedited so i think 2 is good.
BIRDS OF PARADISE 3
BLACK KNIGHT 1
BLACK LOTUS 10
BLACK VISE 1
BLACK WARD 1
BLAZE OF GLORY 1 It s rare, it not reedited and it sux in game like the 2 head giant. The price for this or the giant is almost the same. So desirability is same now. I think or we choose to put + 1 because it s not reedited or not but we need do the same for this card and for the 2 head giant : or both 1 or both 2.
BLESSING 1
BLUE ELEMENTAL BLAST 1
BLUE WARD 1
BOG WRAITH 1
BRAINGEYSER 1
BURROWING 1
CAMOUFLAGE 1
CASTLE 1
CELESTIAL PRISM 1
CHANNEL 1
CHAOS ORB 4
CHAOSLACE 1
CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: BLACK 1
CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: BLUE 1
CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: GREEN 1
CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: RED 1
CIRCLE OF PROTECTION: WHITE 1
CLOCKWORK BEAST 1
CLONE 1
CCKATRICE 1
CONSECRATE LAND 1
CONSERVATOR 1
CONTRACT FROM BELOW 1
CONTROL MAGIC 1
CONVERSION 1
COPPER TABLET 1
COPY ARTIFACT 1
COUNTERSPELL 1
CRAW WURM 1
CREATURE BOND 1
CRUSADE 1
CRYSTAL ROD 1
CURSED LAND 1
CYCLOPEAN TOMB 2 This one should be 3 because it s not reedited, it s rare but it s less powerfull than the other like GoM, illusionnary, chaos.
DARK RITUAL 1
DARKPACT 1
DEATH WARD 1
DEATHGRIP 1
DEATHLACE 1
DEMONIC ATTORNEY 1
DEMONIC HORDES 1
DEMONIC TUTOR 2 it s unco, it s reedited, it s super powerfull but you need play black. Unlike the sol ring. I think it more like regrowth card. I don t know much the price these days. But as it is limited to 1 per deck, it s unco and you need play black to play it i am not sure we can compare it to sol ring. But maby 2 is fair if price is high ...
DINGUS EGG 1
DISENCHANT 1
DISINTEGRATE 1
DISRUPTING SCEPTER 1
DRAGON WHELP 1
DRAIN LIFE 1
DRAIN POWER 1
DRUDGE SKELETONS 1
DWARVEN DEMOLITION TEAM 1
DWARVEN WARRIORS 1
EARTH ELEMENTAL 1
EARTHBIND 1
EARTHQUAKE 1
ELVISH ARCHERS 1
EVIL PRESENCE 1
FALSE ORDERS 1
FARMSTEAD 1
FASTBOND 2
FEAR 1
FEEDBACK 1
FIRE ELEMENTAL 1
FIREBALL 1
FIREBREATHING 1
FLASHFIRES 1
FLIGHT 1
FOG 1
FORCE OF NATURE 2
FORCEFIELD 4
FOREST (3 VERSIONS) 1
FORK 2
FROZEN SHADE 1
FUNGUSAUR 1
GAEAS LIEGE 1
GAUNTLET OF MIGHT 4
GIANT GROWTH 1
GIANT SPIDER 1
GLASSES OF URZA 1
GLOOM 1
GOBLIN BALLOON BRIGADE 1
GOBLIN KING 1
GRANITE GARGOYLE 1
GRAY OGRE 1
GREEN WARD 1
GRIZZLY BEARS 1
GUARDIAN ANGEL 1
HEALING SALVE 1
HELM OF CHATZUK 1
HILL GIANT 1
THE HIVE 1
HOLY ARMOR 1
HOLY STRENGTH 1
HOWL FROM BEYOND 1
HOWLING MINE 1
HURLOON MINOTAUR 1
HURRICANE 1
HYPNOTIC SPECTER 1
ICE STORM 1
ICY MANIPULATOR 2
ILLUSIONARY MASK 4
INSTILL ENERGY 1
INVISIBILITY 1
IRON STAR 1
IRONCLAW ORCS 1
IRONROOT TREEFOLK 1
ISLAND (3 VERSIONS) 1
ISLAND SANCTUARY 1
IVORY CUP 1
JADE MONOITH 1
JADE STATUE 1
JAYEMDAE TOME 1
JUGGERNAUT 1
JUMP 1
KARMA 1
KELDON WARLORD 1
KORMUS BELL 1
KUDZU 1
LANCE 1
LEY DRUID 1
LIBRARY OF LENG 1
LICH 2
LIFEFORCE 1
LIFELACE 1
LIFETAP 1
LIGHTNING BOLT 1
LIVING ARTIFACT 1
LIVING LANDS 1
LIVING WALL 1
LLANOWAR ELVES 1
LORD OF ATLANTIS 1
LORD OF THE PIT 1
LURE 1
MAGICAL HACK 1
MAHAMOTI DJINN 1 It s so powerfull in old bleu deck every body wanted it. This one must be weighted 2 !!!! The force of nature is 2 this one was the key creature of most bleu deck in the old time. The price is almost the same as for the force of nature, we should put it 2.
MANA FLARE 1
MANA SHORT 1
MANA VAULT 2
MANABARBS 1
MEEKSTONE 1
MERFOLK OF THE PEARL TRI 1
MESA PEGASUS 1
MIND TWIST 2
MONSS GOBLIN RAIDERS 1
MOUNTAIN (3 VERSIONS) 1
MOX EMERALD 8
MOX JET 8
MOX PEARL 8
MOX RUBY 8
MOX SAPPHIRE 9 This one is more close to the mox jet than to the ancestral recall. Beside this the ancestral recall should appear between this one and the lotus. So we need to keep it lower than the ancestral recall. Weight 8.
NATURAL SELECTION 1
NETHER SHADOW 1
NETTLING IMP 1
NEVINYRRALS DISK 2 Is it this good ? i remember it was played but not this much. there is one alpha PSA 9 for sell in BIN for months on ebay and no one buy it : 8766970390. it s reedited. I don t think it worth much more than lot rares we rated 1. I don t see any good raison to put it at 2 here.
NIGHTMARE 1 I love this one but it doesn t worth much and was played only in the deep black. But what a powerfull creature it was in the long game with a pur black playing it !!!! One is fair but if i was the king i would rate it 2 LOL !
NORTHERN PALADIN 1
OBSIANUS GOLEM 1
ORCISH ARTILLERY 1
ORCISH ORIFLAMME 1
PARALYZE 1
PEARLED UNICORN 1
PERSONAL INCARNATION 1
PESTILENCE 1
PHANTASMAL FORCES 1
PHANTASMAL TERRAIN 1
PHANTOM MONSTER 1
PIRATE SHIP 1
PLAGUE RATS 1
PLAINS (3 VERSIONS) 1
PLATEAU 3
POWER LEAK 1
POWER SINK 1
POWER SURGE 1
PRODIGAL SORCERER 1
PSIONIC BLAST 1 It s unco, it not reedited. It s less powerfull than the icy or the berserk but it s the only card that make DD in bleu deck ... Maby 1 is fair ... i don t know. I think if we put 2 for 2 head giant and blaze of glory we need put 2 on this one too.(because it s not reedited)
PSYCHIC VENOM 1
PURELACE 1
RAGING RIVER 1
RAISE DEAD 1
RED ELEMENTAL BLAST 1
RED WARD 1
REGENERATION 1
REGROWTH 1
RESURRECTION 1
REVERSE DAMAGE 1
RIGHTEOUSNESS 1
ROC OF KHER RIDGES 1
ROCK HYDRA 1
ROD OF RUIN 1
ROYAL ASSASSIN 2
SACRIFICE 1
SAMITE HEALER 1
SAVANNAH 3
SAVANNAH LIONS 1
SCATHE ZOMBIES 1
SCAVENGING GHOUL 1
SCRUBLAND 3
SCRYB SPRITES 1
SEA SERPENT 1
SEDGE TROLL 1
SENGIR VAMPIRE 1
SERRA ANGEL 2 Why 2 ? it s unco it s reedited ... OK it s powerfull but not more than Clone in bleu or Hypnotic Specter ... The price is not diferent too. It should be 1 like all the other good unco creature.
SHANODIN DRYADS 1
SHATTER 1
SHIVAN DRAGON 3
SIMULACRUM 1
SINKHOLE 1 it s not reedited, it s powerfull but it s common so i think 1 is fair.
SIRENS CALL 1
SLEIGHT OF MIND 1
SMOKE 1
SOL RING 2
SOUL NET 1
SPELL BLAST 1
STASIS 1
STEAL ARTIFACT 1
STONE GIANT 1
STONE RAIN 1
STREAM OF LIFE 1
SUNGLASSES OF URZA 1
SWAMP (3 VERSIONS) 1
SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES 1
TAIGA 3
TERROR 1
THICKET BASILISK 1
THOUGHTLACE 1
THRONE OF BONE 1
TIMBER WOLVES 1
TIME VAULT 3 This one is not reedited, it s rare, it s so powerfull that it has been banish a long time then they changed the cards rule ... Now the price is going up again with a new combo. Each time this card can be used in a combo price will raise more... It think this card must be like GoM, Chaos, illusionnary : weight 4
TIME WALK 8
TIMETWISTER 7
TRANQUILITY 1
TROPICAL ISLAND 3
TSUNAMI 1
TUNDRA 3
TUNNEL 1
TWIDDLE 1
TWO-HEADED GIANT 2 or 1 (see blaze of glory)
UNDERGROUND SEA 3
UNHOLY STRENGTH 1
UNSUMMON 1
UTHDEN TROLL 1
VERDURAN ENCHANTRESS 1
VESUVAN DOPPELGANGER 3
VETERAN BODYGUARD 1
VOLCANIC ERUPTION 1
VOLCANIC ISLAND 3
WALL OF AIR 1
WALL OF BONE 1
WALL OF BRAMBLES 1
WALL OF FIRE 1
WALL OF ICE 1
WALL OF STONE 1
WALL OF SWORDS 1
WALL OF WATER 1
WALL OF WOOD 1
WANDERLUST 1
WAR MAMMOTH 1
WARP ARTIFACT 1
WATER ELEMENTAL 1
WEAKNESS 1
WEB 1
WHEEL OF FORTUNE 2
WHITE KNIGHT 1
WHITE WARD 1
WILD GROWTH 1
WILL-O-THE-WISP 1
WINTER ORB 1
WOODEN SPHERE 1
WORD OF COMMAND 2
WRATH OF GOD 3
ZOMBIE MASTER 1
Let me know if you don t agree with the explaination i give on the cards where i don t agree with weight and why you don t agree plz.
Bastien
Blaze of Glory: I missed this one. You're right, it should be a 2 (OOP rare).
Cyclopean Tomb: It's OOP, but sucks; 2 is about right.
Demonic Tutor: High demand card, 2 is good (like Sol Ring and Icy).
Mahamoti Djinn: I know you love this card, but it really isn't a high demand card now. Perhaps Force of Nature should only be a 1, as well as Nightmare - I think they are all similar. Any other thoughts?
Mox Sapphire: Absolute key piece of power, best of the moxes - this MUST stay at 9.
Nevinyrral's Disk: Very popular artifact, with high demand; 2 is about right.
Psionic Blast: I addressed this in my previous post; if the focus is only rare OOP's, then 1 is good, like Sinkhole.
Serra Angel: Still a very popular card; Clone isn't even close, and Hippy just doesn't quite get there. 2 is good here.
Time Vault: Also in my previous post, I agree it should be a 4.
Nice response Bastien - you seem to hit on all the spots that I too thought might be trouble. Overall do you like the changes? Anyone else with an opinion? (yeah, that's a loaded question - LOL)
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
Blaze of Glory: I missed this one. You're right, it should be a 2 (OOP rare).
Cyclopean Tomb: It's OOP, but sucks; 2 is about right. I don t think this card sucks LOL ! (at least lot less that the giant and the blaze)
Demonic Tutor: High demand card, 2 is good (like Sol Ring and Icy). OK
Mahamoti Djinn: I know you love this card, but it really isn't a high demand card now. Perhaps Force of Nature should only be a 1, as well as Nightmare - I think they are all similar. Any other thoughts? and royal assassin too then should be 1 then :-) I think we should put the mahamoti 2 :-)
Mox Sapphire: Absolute key piece of power, best of the moxes - this MUST stay at 9. Same as ancestral ! it s a sacrilege !
Nevinyrral's Disk: Very popular artifact, with high demand; 2 is about right. No way it s not high demand it can t sell in alpha PSA 9 version for 136 USD ... If it was a mahamoti for 136 USD it would have been sold already (i got my mahamoti PSA 9 alpha for 120 USD on ebay)
Psionic Blast: I addressed this in my previous post; if the focus is only rare OOP's, then 1 is good, like Sinkhole. Berserk is uncomon but it s 2. But ok the psyonic is less good so it can stay 1 i think.
Serra Angel: Still a very popular card; Clone isn't even close, and Hippy just doesn't quite get there. 2 is good here. I compared the price it almost the same between hippy and serra ! It s unco !!! There is lot of them !!! Beside this my mahamoti is much more sexy than your serra LOL !
Time Vault: Also in my previous post, I agree it should be a 4.
Support da Mahamoti,
Bastien
Cyclopean Tomb: Are you saying the 2-Headed sucks more? I LOVE the 2-Headed
Mahamoti Djinn: Royal Assassin is considerably more desireable than Force, Nightmare, or Mahamoti; he must stay a 2. The others are open for debate (opinions?)
Mox Sapphire: Most Type 1 players rate the Lotus #1 and the Sapphire/ Ancestral even at #2. Prices tend to bear this out as well. If you move the Sapphire to 8, then all the other power drops to 7 (Twister 6) - IMHO that's too low. I think the Sapphire should stay 9. To be honest Bastien, I personally think the Ancestral is the best power card (even trumping a Lotus), but I'm going with the overall "market" here.
Nevinyrral's Disk: A tough card that players still use quite a bit - they still sell very well across the board. Overall it does outsell a Mahamoti, but there will always be individual exceptions with every card. I have a nice PSA 8 Disk, but if you'd like, shoot me a scan of your 9 - I might be interested if the deal is good
Serra Angel: Staple of the base set and always a very popular card. Hippy does come close - an argument can be made to give that a 2 as well.
Gotta go. We'll let the others chime in now...
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
I agree most weight and think it s good exept :
Blaze of Glory: 2 like 2 head.
Cyclopean Tomb: 2 is too low and price of this card is high compare to the 2 head and blaze. i think 3 is better.
Demonic Tutor: OK i looked price again and it s high ... 2 is ok.
Mahamoti Djinn: if force is 2 and disc 2 then this one should be 2 too. Because it s one of the best creature in bleu from old time and the price between force disc and this are in a 20 % difference. It s realy almost the same price at same condition in the same old set.
Mox Sapphire: the ancestral worth more for sure but this card worth lot more than the pearl ruby and emerald ... so i think 9 can be ok as we can t put a 8.5 ...
Nevinyrral's Disk: Ok for 2 if mahamoti get 2 too and force 2. For Nightmare i would keep it 1 ... Because it s lot less playable.
Psionic Blast: ok for 1
Serra Angel: same value and desirability as the hippy, force, mahamoti, royal... we should put 2 for hippy too.
Time Vault: 4 for sure. So powerfull !
Underground sea : should be 4 i think too. See to price of this one ... It s 1.5-3 time the price of the other. And when we compare it to shivan (both 3 i think there is a problem)
Overall it s well balanced with those new weight !
Jared : i have an other Mahamoti alpha that i forgot in the back pocket of my jeans when i washed it, still you can read the text on the card. Maby i could think to trade it for your PSA 8 disc if you add something!
Take it easy,
Bastien
ANCESTRAL RECALL 9
ARMAGEDDON 2
BADLANDS 3
BALANCE 2
BAYOU 3
BERSERK 2
BIRDS OF PARADISE 3
BLACK LOTUS 10
BLAZE OF GLORY 2
CYCLOPEAN TOMB 2
DEMONIC TUTOR 2
FASTBOND 2
FORCE OF NATURE 2
FORCEFIELD 4
FORK 2
GAUNTLET OF MIGHT 4
HYPNOTIC SPECTER 2
ICY MANIPULATOR 2
ILLUSIONARY MASK 4
LICH 2
MAHAMOTI DJINN 2
MANA VAULT 2
MIND TWIST 2
MOX EMERALD 8
MOX JET 8
MOX PEARL 8
MOX RUBY 8
MOX SAPPHIRE 9
NEVINYRRALS DISK 2
PLATEAU 3
ROYAL ASSASSIN 2
SAVANNAH 3
SCRUBLAND 3
SERRA ANGEL 2
SHIVAN DRAGON 3
SOL RING 2
TAIGA 3
TIME VAULT 4
TIME WALK 8
TIMETWISTER 7
TROPICAL ISLAND 3
TUNDRA 3
TWO-HEADED GIANT OF FORIYS 2
UNDERGROUND SEA 4
VESUVAN DOPPELGANGER 3
VOLCANIC ISLAND 3
WHEEL OF FORTUNE 2
WORD OF COMMAND 2
WRATH OF GOD 3
Did I miss anything?
Jake
Jake
I'm not sure people check these boards as often as they used to given the low volume of MtG traffic. :-)
<< <i>Yes! No! Maybe!
I'm not sure people check these boards as often as they used to given the low volume of MtG traffic. :-) >>
You're probably right. I'll email them.
Jake
Those numbers look fine to me
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.