How's this for a color premium?

Jcarney · February 20, 2006 8:45AM

Linkage

I know this may be the seller's reserve, but wow!

HTubbs · February 20, 2006 8:47AM

AT?

ILikeMercs · February 20, 2006 8:52AM

<< AT? >>

kinda has that look..................

mozin · February 20, 2006 8:54AM

The reserve must have been entered incorrectly.

Myqqy · February 20, 2006 9:01AM

I can't decide if that looks NT or not........

DickyBetz · February 20, 2006 9:03AM

Its NT and awesome. It kinda looks like my 1909 on its reverse.

Russ · February 20, 2006 9:04AM

There is additional discussion of the coin in this thread.

Russ, NCNE

pharmer · February 20, 2006 9:07AM

I agree, Greg, and the quarter in the other thread is NT also.

Jcarney · February 20, 2006 9:07AM

Thanks Russ!

ziggy29 · February 20, 2006 9:09AM

Nothing like a little toning to get someone to pay 1909-S VDB money for a 1909 VDB.

Russ · February 20, 2006 9:11AM

Maybe I should sell this one.

Russ, NCNE

dizzyfoxx · February 20, 2006 9:11AM

I think it's a very pretty penny!

Jcarney · February 20, 2006 9:13AM

<< Nothing like a little toning to get someone to pay 1909-S VDB money for a 1909 VDB. >>

What crossed my mind before clicking the link was that Teletrade screwed up and had listed a 1909S VDB as a non S.

DickyBetz · February 20, 2006 9:15AM

<< Maybe I should sell this one.

Russ, NCNE >>

That one looks AT.

pharmer · February 20, 2006 9:16AM

<< Maybe I should sell this one.

Russ, NCNE >>

That one does look AT. Do you know it's provenance? If you sell, remember your rule about slabbing first so it becomes NT

Russ · February 20, 2006 9:19AM

It's not AT. It was in a crusty mildewed Whitman and the majority of the Lincolns were toned and/or corroded.

Russ, NCNE

MikeJessie1 · February 20, 2006 9:20AM

Just keep driving up those lincoln prices!!!

Russ · February 20, 2006 9:25AM

Here's another one from the same album:

Russ, NCNE

rainbowroosie · February 20, 2006 10:10AM

I love that coin...I'm not a Lincoln guy, but I would have bid $500 for it...for a comparable roosie, I'd get really stooopid!

JoshL · February 20, 2006 10:13AM

It is altered naturally. lol

clutsy · February 20, 2006 11:19AM

check your old chemistry texts...SULFER does not give all colors of the rainbow on silver or copper. The fact that so many coins have turned up in old albums doesn't prove they weren't AT'd some time ago. One other explanaition could be that coins were routinely washed, using ammonia, iodine, or chlorine to prevent the transmission of disease. These along with surfactants, lead from the days of leaded gas, and iron oxide from anything rusting nearby can account for most of the colors, but not all, in circulated coins. Heating is required to achieve certain colors, unless, on silver coins a type of photoprocessing is used...the commem pictured recently is probably a good example of that.
Maybe RUSS will post pics of his experiments...

pharmer · February 20, 2006 11:36AM

<< check your old chemistry texts...SULFER does not give all colors of the rainbow on silver or copper. The fact that so many coins have turned up in old albums doesn't prove they weren't AT'd some time ago. One other explanaition could be that coins were routinely washed, using ammonia, iodine, or chlorine to prevent the transmission of disease. These along with surfactants, lead from the days of leaded gas, and iron oxide from anything rusting nearby can account for most of the colors, but not all, in circulated coins. Heating is required to achieve certain colors, unless, on silver coins a type of photoprocessing is used...the commem pictured recently is probably a good example of that.
Maybe RUSS will post pics of his experiments... >>

Clutsy, don't know if you've had a chance to see this thread yet. It's a real classic, and explains toning on silver and copper coins. It may not be sulfur per se, but the presence of sulfur in storage materials results in silver sulfide deposition on the surface of silver coins. And the colors of the rainbow do occur, just not in the same order as an atmospheric rainbow. Enjoy.

Oh, and this thread also makes me think the 44s quarter in the same Teletrade sale tonight is NT, as it follows the progression that Rob explains.

clutsy · February 20, 2006 11:53AM

read the threads on the 44, blue,sulfer alone, yellow, iron sulfide, crimson purple and brown, ammonium chloride, with sulfide...notice no real green...green on silver is not a sulfide. my point stands other chemicals need to be present...and could have been present. This is a 90% silver coin, 100% copper is a different story...yellow cannot be achieved without heat...try it.

curly · February 20, 2006 12:03PM

folks, lets all take a deep breath here. It's a 1909 VDB penny. I think that this toning business is getting out of hand. If all we care about are the colors and not the coin, why worry if it is AT or NT as long as it is pretty. As long as collectors (I prefer to call them speculators) demand wildly toned coins there is going to be some doctor out there who will supply it. I (for one) think that eye popping toners are the new tulip bulbs and when toning starts driving the market rather than the coin itself then the hobby will start shaking out.

There have been some toners that have gone for silly prices lately.

I know some of you boys are going to say that I am nuts so lets get to it.

Thats my take on it anyway

pharmer · February 20, 2006 12:12PM

<< read the threads on the 44, blue,sulfer alone, yellow, iron sulfide, crimson purple and brown, ammonium chloride, with sulfide...notice no real green...green on silver is not a sulfide. my point stands other chemicals need to be present...and could have been present. This is a 90% silver coin, 100% copper is a different story...yellow cannot be achieved without heat...try it. >>

So, you didn't bother to read rob790's thread? If green on silver is not a sulfide, what is it? Thanks in advance.

mnmcoin · February 20, 2006 12:38PM

I have collected toned Lincolns for about 5+ years now and have not come across a coin like that. I would have to vote AT. In my experience and for what it is worth Lincolns don't naturally tone like like. The only ones I have seen with that kind of color is cleaned or cleaned and retoned crap.

morris <><

clutsy · February 20, 2006 2:11PM

i totally agree...if the coin is appealing ...who cares...my point is to much is being made of NT vs AT...when no one really knows...as i've posted before I saw numerous collectors coins being toned in the art studios...and I plead guilty...although I didn't do any of the toning, I rented out space in my secure locker in the Silver/Goldsmithing studio to the toners.
...they are works of art...
by the way my professor had been toning coins in the 1930's
the coins went back into their 2X2's, or whatever envelopes they came in and then back into the collectors vaults. One big time collector from Chicago sent his whole collection to be toned, in 1972, the coins went back into his safe deposit box...I'm sure he's dead now and the coins are somewhere supposedly "NT" from the environment of the vault...
Both my grandfather's owned banks...one had an extensive coin collection...that family owned the bank for over 150 years before he died in 1964...his major collection was stolen, it was framed in his office...no tonors... I have his seconds...rolls and rolls...although I haven't made it through all the rolls, I have yet to come across any coins that are rainbow toned...and most of these are in really old rolls.
I spent many months at the banks growing up in the 50's and 60's and would have noticed...we would check all the coins daily looking for key dates...the Gpa that collected coins also owned a grocery store...more coins to search through..I have better luck with change from truck stops...old 60's and 70's coins with beautiful toning....sulfides and leaded gas...
He also had an antique cash register in his home that was full of old coins...no pennies newer than IHC's, all 5 cents older than buffalos etc...none had "rainbow" toning. Every time I lost a tooth he gave me a silver dollar...morgan or trade...my mother told him $1 was too much so he swithched to older, and actually more valuble 50 cent pieces, lots a black but no rainbows.
Throughout the family history, at least a mint roll, or bag of silver dollars was saved to remember the birth of family members...he was born in 1879, I have the S's my grandmother in 1889, I have the O's, they were married in 1921, I have the s's... his parents were married in 1877, I have the 1877 s trades...my mother was born in 1922...etc...and back to the revolutionary war..guess what...no rainbow tonors! I still have more to go through...but I'm not optimistic about finding tonors.
I also had massive collections of antique silver and copper, as the oldest female grandchild on both sides it all went to me...I've since given most to my younger siblings. Sometimes i get lazy and don't pollish it but just wash it in dish detergent...this results in Rainbow toning.
The copper pans that I use to cook with develope a different type of toning than the copper items I just use for storage or display.
Yeah I just get lazy and sometimes I use a chlorine based cleaner and others an ammonia based..windex...none of the copper items that have NOT been heated have ever developed a yellow color...only the items i use to cook with.
My father was a Phd Chemist, with a lab at home...my second run through college...was in Biology, and Electrical Engineering, some how I ended up as a teachers aide at the U in Analytical Chem...all my siblings have Chem degrees, one specializes in metalurgie.
Let's just say I've looked at coins from both sides now...NT, AT no way to tell...coins that were washed as banks routinely did should display some colorful toning, but sulfides don't account for it all.

How's this for a color premium?

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