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RED - The Good, the Bad and the UGLY
Pushkin
Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭
I have put together and disposed of three complete Indian Head cent collections over the past few years. The last was high end but it had only three or four Red cents. Red Indian Head cents are, IMO, very difficult to find with attractive eye appeal. The problems are splotchy color, uneven toning (just love the seller descriptions that say "with areas of mellowed toning"), streaky planchets, spots, and hits in all the wrong places - like on the cheeks. A true Red IHC should possess even color with even toning, exceptional luster and much better than average eye appeal. There aren't many out there and those that are usually command considerable premiums over the run of the mill Red (which usually isn't really Red).
When buying Red IHCs you must see the coin in hand and examine it under different light and magnification. Often, you will be disappointed. I have been, anyway, and usually opted for nice Red Browns and Browns.
The problems with MS IHCs carry over to proofs. A true red proof IHC is a treasure, most Red proof IHC's are dogs.
Here is my recent (today) purchase from Mark Feld. This coin has it all for a proof. The fields are evenly colored and possess great mirrors over the entire field surfaces, the devices show a hint of cameo with nice froth and are also even (same) color on the obverse and reverse. The coin has few negatives, a minor hit on the cheek that is hidden by the froth except under magnification, excellent strike and overall great eye appeal. I think the coin is very close to PR66, but the small cheek hit likely precludes that lofty grade.
A little advice, be very careful and very selective when you buy Red - many are not and many are just plain UGLY. I offer the same advice for 2¢ pieces.
Note: the color differences in the fields are do to the reflectivity of the mirrors, not “mellowing”. These are tough coins to get good pictures of.
When buying Red IHCs you must see the coin in hand and examine it under different light and magnification. Often, you will be disappointed. I have been, anyway, and usually opted for nice Red Browns and Browns.
The problems with MS IHCs carry over to proofs. A true red proof IHC is a treasure, most Red proof IHC's are dogs.
Here is my recent (today) purchase from Mark Feld. This coin has it all for a proof. The fields are evenly colored and possess great mirrors over the entire field surfaces, the devices show a hint of cameo with nice froth and are also even (same) color on the obverse and reverse. The coin has few negatives, a minor hit on the cheek that is hidden by the froth except under magnification, excellent strike and overall great eye appeal. I think the coin is very close to PR66, but the small cheek hit likely precludes that lofty grade.
A little advice, be very careful and very selective when you buy Red - many are not and many are just plain UGLY. I offer the same advice for 2¢ pieces.
Note: the color differences in the fields are do to the reflectivity of the mirrors, not “mellowing”. These are tough coins to get good pictures of.
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Comments
I'm not surprised you've chosen some RBs over RDs - so often you see a full RD, but ugly, coin priced at double what a RB in the same grade is. Yet the RB can be 80% red, and far more appealing overall.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>I'm not surprised you've chosen some RBs over RDs - so often you see a full RD, but ugly, coin priced at double what a RB in the same grade is. Yet the RB can be 80% red, and far more appealing overall. >>
I agree with you Kranky. I love IHCs. Too often the premium on RDs is very high and the buyer is paying for the RD on the label, not he coin. Personally, I almost always prefer a RB or a super BN over a RD. Unattractive and "false" RDs are the norm, IMO. A real RED should WOW you.
<< <i>A real RED should WOW >>
<< <i>I agree with you >>
I just want clean surfaces, strong frost and mirrors and I don't need RD to acheive that.
A few years ago, common date "RD" examples typically sold for large premiums over "BN" and "RB" ones. However, with the greatly increased popularity (and in some cases, prices) of the "BN" and "RB" pieces, those premiums have diminished in many cases. In fact, I and others have paid more for non-RD examples than for "RD" ones, a number of times.
First, I apologize for the photo, I'm not a pro and it doesn't do the coin justice.
<< <i>However, with the greatly increased popularity (and in some cases, prices) of the "BN" and "RB" pieces, those premiums have diminished in many cases. In fact, I and others have paid more for non-RD examples than for "RD" ones, a number of times. >>
Is this the case for both PR and MS or just proofs?
<< <i><< However, with the greatly increased popularity (and in some cases, prices) of the "BN" and "RB" pieces, those premiums have diminished in many cases. In fact, I and others have paid more for non-RD examples than for "RD" ones, a number of times. >> >>
Is this the case for both PR and MS or just proofs?
I was speaking of the colorful Proofs, not business strikes. Because most of the ("BN" and "RB") business strikes don't acquire the gorgeous colors that a number of the Proofs do, they don't usually trade at anywhere near "RD" prices.
<< <i> A true red proof IHC is a treasure >>
I concur!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>I and others have paid more for non-RD examples than for "RD" ones, a number of times. >>
Again, I concur - this "Brown" proof is worth much mor ethan most "Reds" - But then it's NOT Brown!
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>I like them all but I get $150 worth of pleasure from an AU brown IHC >>
I really like IHCs in XF and AU. One of the nicest coins I ever owned was a 1877 PCGS XF-45. I have more regret over selling that coin to trade up than over any other coin I've ever sold. Would happily sell several MS proofs if I could get that coin back. If I ever put together another IHC collection it will be in AU-53 to AU-58 with the keys and semis in XF.
That's one of the most challenging set to put together. I have customers who send me thousands of $$ in advance just to get first shot at my XF AU's that come in (one reason you don't see me list many).
<< <i>If I ever put together another IHC collection it will be in AU-53 to AU-58 with the keys and semis in XF.
That's one of the most challenging set to put together. I have customers who send me thousands of $$ in advance just to get first shot at my XF AU's that come in (one reason you don't see me list many). >>
And I've bought a few of them from you in years past.
I have about 5-6 upgrades to get around to, but my XF/AU run of cents from 1857-1909 is basically done. It's not at all easy to find many of the tougher dates in problem-free XF and AU (some of them are much easier to find in mint state!). I've seen how quickly Rick sells the XF/AU key dates after they are listed. I still need the '09-S, but that's because almost all of them I see are MS, not solid EF or AU, and the few times I've seen them have been times when I haven't felt right about spending the money (such as right after paying property taxes).
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.