Cut or Clip in 2005 kennedy half dollar, uncirc mint set

keez · February 5, 2006 9:06AM

Hi, This is my second thread to this forum. Got some great advice on the first one. When I received this 2005 uncirc mint set, the kennedy half dollar had a cut in it. It is in the mint packaging, pic attached. Is this considered a clip?

cladking · February 5, 2006 9:28AM

I'd guess the piece were ripped out pretty violently after the strike as if the force were
directed toward the reverse. A little of the clad layer was torn off with it implyimg a weak
area in the cladding. While this apparently occured after the strike I'm also guessing
that the planchet was oriented like the coin when it was cut from the strip, i.e. the copper
which shows on the edge is toward the reverse.

There should be a discernable difference in height between the copper area and the adjacent
cladded area if this is post strike damage.

seanq · February 5, 2006 9:41AM

That almost looks like it was hit by the crimping equipment when the set was sealed. It certainly doesn't look like any clip I've seen.

What doe the opposite rim on the reverse look like?

Sean Reynolds

Conder101 · February 5, 2006 4:42PM

Need a better picture. From that it just looks like a major rim ding.

CoinGobbler · February 5, 2006 11:00PM

I would send that coin back and ask for a new one, you got hoodwinked. The MInt is getting sloppy nowadays.

keez · February 6, 2006 3:46AM

Here is the reverse. When looking across the coin at eye level, the edge is a bit taller. This pic is a scan at 400% looking down on that reverse of the spot. The cut doesn't go all the way through, but it definitely affected the rev side. It is a V cut on the obv. The surrounding wrapping is not punctured or disturbed in any way. It this considered a mint error?

TAClough · February 6, 2006 3:49AM

Can't see a thing. It would help if you would attach the picture.

Tim

keez · February 6, 2006 4:07AM

Pic size was too large, had to reduce. It is uploaded now.

Craton · February 6, 2006 4:12AM

I can't really tell from the picture but could he have a "rim burr" there Sean?

keez · February 6, 2006 4:48AM

Is this an inside corner clip as read on a link to sean's site describing clips. There was no pic but just a description.

keez · February 6, 2006 4:59AM

The points on the obverse side of the reeded edge are there, but they are shorter because a chunk of the coin is missing.

seanq · February 6, 2006 5:11AM

That is not an inside corner clip. I can't tell anything from your reverse image, but if the metal was missing from the obverse rim before the strike, then you should see corresponding weakness on the rim opposite it.

Another question: it looks like the copper color extends out from the nick on the rim onto the solid rim adjacent and even into the field above the B. Is that copper color really there on the coin, and if so does it look like the copper is sitting above the clad, even with the clad, or under the clad? In other words, was the cladding removed after the strike, was it misssing before the strike, or was come of the copper core struck or moved down onto the clad layer?

Sean Reynolds

Shamika · February 6, 2006 5:24AM

Looks like a cut, but it's hard to tell from those images.

keez · February 6, 2006 6:26AM

Yes the copper is onto the obv face of the coin. These scans here are the obv facing up. It looks like the copper is under the clad. Having a hard time getting a good angle with the scanner. The rim at 180 degrees opposite the spot on the obverse is not affected, looks normal. However the same spot on the reverse side of it does not look normal, see rev. pic.

keez · February 6, 2006 7:30AM

More pics added -- whatever the case may be with this coin it was damaged at the mint, packaged and sent. I'll just call it a quirky kennedy LOL. If you can let me know a better angle, I can try and capture it.

keez · February 9, 2006 6:14AM

If not a clip, would it be considered a lamination error then? It must be some sort of an error as it occurred at the Mint before it was packaged. V-shaped cut with a piece of the clad torn off.

keez

coinnut86 · February 9, 2006 6:21AM

No.

Get a Photobucket account and upload a larger image of the entire coin.

I really doubt that is a clip but we need to see the opposite side of it, as in.. straight across from the 'clip' not the otherside

However like I said.. I doubt it's a clip

keez · February 9, 2006 6:26AM

Straight across from the spot looks normal.

coinnut86 · February 9, 2006 6:32AM

Well, after re-reading this post by Chuck I'm not sure if this applys to all clips, but here it is

<<Thought I would share this little tidbit of education with the folks here, especially considering the number of new people we have that may or may not have heard of this little factoid of numismatic information.

I was going through some pocket change this evening and ran across a single wheat cent out of thousands of memorials, and that single wheat cent happened to be an interesting little error...it was a clip, and not just a clip, but a straight clip, which is a bit less common than it's curved clip brother. You see, a curved clip can happen anywhere in the sheet - simply by having two rows of blank punches too close to one another you end up with a full row of incomplete blanks when the second of the two rows is punched. A straight clip only happens when the sheet moves too far left or right and the blank is cut off the edge of the sheet.

Anyhow, this particluar little straight clip shows an effect that isn't always present on clipped planchets, but when it is you can just about guarantee its authenticity by it. If you look at the design just opposite the clip (in this case the letters of TRUST) you will see that the design and rim is a bit weak up there. This happens because the rim is rolled up, or "upset" in a mill that rolls the blank around and makes it round and raises the rim for better striking. It works by rolling the planchet around a wheel that has a groove in a trench that the blank won't fit through without crimping it. If you think of a blank being round, it would raise the rim all the way around...but if there were a piece missing, the area opposite the missing piece wouldn't receive the pressure necessary to raise the rim...sort of like an out of round shopping cart wheel with a flat spot....bump, bump, bump as you shop, embarassing you all the way. We've all had that happen and wish we had picked a different cart. Well, in coin making, the Blakesley effect, so coined from the first person to realize and describe the cause of the effect, is the result of a blank being upset that started through the machine out of round...with a clip.

Enjoy, and ask questions...that's the only way you'll learn. Unless people like me hang around way past their bed time writing blather about what interests them.>>

Info from Chuck aka coppercoins

Craton · February 9, 2006 6:57AM

My opinion is that it's a RIM BURR. I'm not positive due to the image quality but that's my guess and I'm sticking to it.

keez · February 9, 2006 7:33AM

Photobucket account created

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/keezplayer/clip2.jpg

coinnut86 · February 9, 2006 7:44AM

Craton · February 9, 2006 9:02AM

Keez. If you want some real advice, you'll need a larger image. Without one, I'd give up on asking here.

gonzer · February 9, 2006 9:09AM

Feed finger damage on ejection?

keez · February 10, 2006 3:30AM

BIG pic now, sorry for the probs with viewing earlier.
Would this be something to submit for grading, or to hang onto, or just put away as a problem coin.
No Blakesley effect 180 degrees opposite the spot.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/keezplayer/kennedy700a.jpg

grip · February 10, 2006 3:44AM

Could there have been something inside the collar,when it was struck?

errormaven · February 10, 2006 3:53AM

I'm pretty confident that this is pre-strike damage. It's probably a close relative of a rim burr, although in this case a "fang" wasn't torn up and struck into the coin. The fact that the copper core is exposed on the rim and is flush with the surrounding surface is consistent with damage before the strike.

F117ASR · February 10, 2006 4:02AM

I too have one like this. I also have a nickel that was chopped. All in one 2005 mint set. I believe it was when it was packaged that it was damaged. I cannot provide a pic because I am currently in La Jolla (I go to school here). I wouldn't think it carries a premium because I see it as damaged. But who knows, there might be someone out there who wants it.

Craton · February 10, 2006 6:32AM

<< <i>I'm pretty confident that this is pre-strike damage. It's probably a close relative of a rim burr, although in this case a "fang" wasn't torn up and struck into the coin. The fact that the copper core is exposed on the rim and is flush with the surrounding surface is consistent with damage before the strike. >>

I agree.
I also have to say something about people thinking it might be packaging damage. The "jaws" that seal the mint sets do not carry enough pressure to "chop" metal.

cladking · February 10, 2006 7:00AM

<< <i>

<< <i>I'm pretty confident that this is pre-strike damage. It's probably a close relative of a rim burr, although in this case a "fang" wasn't torn up and struck into the coin. The fact that the copper core is exposed on the rim and is flush with the surrounding surface is consistent with damage before the strike. >>

I agree.
I also have to say something about people thinking it might be packaging damage. The "jaws" that seal the mint sets do not carry enough pressure to "chop" metal. >>

You're no doubt correct about this but I've seen mint set coins with extreme post-mint damage.

Frequently this damage is from some sort of shearing force and will look as though the coin was
damaged by a large pair of scissors. The coin will actually be cut and distorted by the force. I'd
guess these get caught up in the machinery somewhere, perhaps in the drying process.

errormaven · February 10, 2006 7:03AM

I agree that you can find coins in sealed mint sets with severe post-strike damage. They often have a "waffle-iron" pattern.

Cut or Clip in 2005 kennedy half dollar, uncirc mint set

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