The upgrader didnt do anything for you once the coin was sold. Deal is dead. Coincidence that it landed in "joe's" hands. Not any effort of the upgrader. Upgrader should have put it on hold, then he had a chance at a deal.
Furthermore, john doe BOUGHT the coin with you in mind. Upgrader didnt even HOLD it. Upgrader can "pound sand".
Should upgrader still receive a commission if it had sold to someone else and you never saw the coin again???
No. He offered to deliver the coin to you for $12,000. He did not keep his end of the deal. The deal is void, and you bought the coin from "JD" at $13,000.
>>>Had the coin gone to another dealer, not MM's friend, and the deal been cut at $13k, would MM owe him a finder's fee
there are several ifs to be thought about and thus one could reach a different conclusion for each
but there is only one actual set of circumstances
..and his knowledge of the coin and all his actions with regard to me ( which took less 2 minutes ) had nothing to do at all with me ending up with the coin
if on the other hand as i did point out...if the coin was behind someone`s table out of view ( including mt friend john doe ) then he would indeed be entitled me entertaining some form of compensation which would depend on what i had to pay for the coin vrs the original stated deal
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
You sure dont owe anything and i agree with a few others that 20% was a pretty fat fee...that said i would probably let the upgrader decide what if anything i owe him after he knew all the details of how much the coin eventually cost..i would probably then be out the 2k and even more chaffed then when i started..guess the nice part is you got your "monster". Bruce Scher
The upgrader made you an offer to lead you to a monster you could buy for $10K. For this he wanted $2K. You agreed, so you had a deal. The upgrader failed to deliver, so you owe him nothing.
A 20% finders fee with no money at risk is way out of line. If the upgrader actually bought the coin, and asked $12K for it, that would have been fine. A 5% finders fee sounds about right for a coin in this price range.
You should be upset with the upgrader for offering you a deal he could not complete. The way I see it, the upgrader owes you that extra $1K you had to pay to own the coin. The upgrader failed to follow through with the deal and he needs to pay up for his failure. If I were in your shoes, I would leave things alone with this upgrader. If he contacts you in the future about another monster, fine, if not, that is fine too.
It is interesting to see how many CU members feel you owe the upgrader money. We must live on different planets.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
From your point of view, the deal was dead when the coin could no longer be purchased from the first dealer.
Not that it matters, but who's to say the upgrader didn't have a deal with the first dealer to collect another $1k from him if he could help sell it for $10k?
In any case, the 20% seems high for just making the connection, though it may have been worth it to you on the right coin.
So, I like the idea of dinner and beers to work things out between you two without offering him anything up front first. You might get a better gut feeling about the whole thing and both walk away satisfied that things are back on track. Or, it might not work out and it only cost you a dinner to find out.
As it sits right now, he feels you owe him $2k. If you offer him less than that he may well take it with the idea that he'll get the rest out of you later.
I would have told you about it and not expected a penny in return.
Yes, but you are just a nice guy, and the "upgrader" (why do we call him that, anyway?) makes his living doing this. I was thinking 5% is plenty for a "no-risk" transaction in which he walks you across the floor to show you a coin. From what I have seen in the past, any real bourse wholesaler should be able to get the coin on memo for 30 minutes to show the coin to you and earn his bucks. Is this guy a "wannabe"?
The more I think about it, I am dumbfounded by the whole process (like FatMan). I am not a collector of "monsters", but I am also not unfamiliar with buying coins in this price range. Perhaps its my lack of connections (or perhaps the good connections I do have), but I have never had to pay a finder's fee to buy a coin from a dealer. I will be sure to post about it here when I do. (Gulp, maybe one time I unknowingly did . )
Edit: Great (fresh) topic for a thread...I love it when we all get to learn about the dark underside of the coin trade.
Consider yourself lucky that this so called upgrader doesn't want to deal with you anymore.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I couldn't hardly sleep last night thinking of this thread...
ha ha, not really... I was still mulling over a hoard of junk.... but I checked back and I decided this , monsterman....
Go strait up to this guy and say >>>>> why don't you just punch me in the fist with your face, really hard ... If he takes you up on the offer, he is not that big of a jerk....but if he doesn't, you know he is
I'm only saying this as I see he has always been the owner of the coins he's dealt you with the exception of this one you refer to in the thread. The guy is spoiled and needs a good slap upside the head (proverbially speaking)
So, did the coin upgrade or not? I don't claim to know much about coins, but at my age I have made more than my share of mistakes at judging people and some of them have been very expensive. Most of what I have read so far makes sense and sounds like the replies, we male business types would offer.
The assumption in this debate if you will is that this guy should understand and accept the fact that he really didn't procur the coin for you at the price agreed upon. To him this is not relevant, the only relevant point is that he spotted the coin before you did. The fact that it ended up next to you in a case is not relevant to him either. So there is the conundrum. What I would ask myself is how valuable his services are to me in the future, for if you don't pay him something you can kiss the relationship goodbye.
The fact is this guy doesn't view what happened in the same light as us male business types. He is somewhat childlike in his position and may not be open to what we would consider a logical explanation. Bottom line if you want this relationship to continue you will have to pay him a few ounces of flesh.
Great thread. I agree that the the arrangement was negated when he could not deliver the coin at the price promised. It is unclear if you are freting because of the ethics of your decision or because you need this upgrader for your own future needs. It is unclear if this coin was for a private collection or for sale and thus profit. If for the latter you may need to ask how much you can sell the coin for and then if the profit is large how much you wish to share. If it is an ethical issue then you need to search your own ethical practices to gain insights into the "right" thing to do.
I would say that I was in your shoes, the relationship with this upgrader has taken an irreversible turn. I would not trust him and he likewise. I think that 20% for a no risk deal is unwarrented. However if your deal is that he gets 20% for any coin he finds for you then you have a deal provided he delivers. In this case he did not. If the coin was such a sure deal he should have bought the coin and sold it to you. Your relationship with your hanging buddy is also strange. You owe him a profit for a purchased coin. His price is the possible value of the coin (sold by him) minus whatever discount he wishes to give to you based on your relationship. If his wish to delay was because he needed time to price the coin and you coerced him because you knew more about the coin than he did then you have not dealt with him fairly either.
The coin business is a special one: too often driven by need, greed, deceipt, risk, speculation and confused or questionable ethics. I prefer to work with people I trust; should the trust evaporate so does the relationship.
I'm to cheap to ever give anyone $2,000 for anything like just finding something for me. If that is the way someone makes a living, what a way to go. Don't pay him nothing. As already noted, you paid to much as it is and if anything, he owes you for the extra.
so for all this time the upgrader has always thought i owed him 2,000 for finding the coin...
>>
gosh, he could probably quit his day job as a "upgrader" if there were enough people around to pay him for finding coins that had already been sold.......
monsterman, I don't believe that you owe him any finder's fee. He didn't do anything to hold the coin for you. All he did was direct you to it and it was already gone when you got there. Heck, if it's that easy, let me direct you to this summer's ANA convention, there will be some monsters there. Remember now, I get 20% of your purchases.
After reading all the replies in this post, This sounds like some kind of a "Shell" game, or some kind of a con job. Maybe the John Doe was in it with the other dealer?
I think when the dealer said sorry, it's already sold......... End's your arrangement with the Upgrader. If there was nothing in writing, No written agreement. There is nothing....... I don't think there is a court in this land, that would uphold a verbal agreement, under such circumstance's. If anything, Sound's like he "Baited" you.
1. Your Upgrader knew where the coin was, and for a finder's fee of 20%, Some friend.......
2. You agreed to pay this amount if you were able to purchase the coin from the dealer, Who said, Sorry it's already sold?????
3. You return to your upgrader to find he has purchased the coin already out from under your very own feet.
4. The Upgrader is planning to bleed you, not just a higher purchase price, But the juice for a finder's fee.
5. This sounds so much like a Automobile dealer using the "Birddog Technique". If your not familiar with this scam, I'll explain.....
You see the neighbor has a new car and you tell him you have been looking for a certain model.... Your neighbor say's he knows exactly where to locate one, and refer's you to "Joe Blow's" Dealership. You say thank's, and you will check it out. Your neighbor head's back in his house and pick's up his phone and call's the car salesman, and tell's him your coming with the intention of purchasing. The Salesman agree's to give him a "birddog" fee if he sell's you the car. So, you buy the car. and quietly your neighbor get's a check.
If the coin in question had a price tag of 10,Grand..... I think by law it is automatically or supposed to be reported to the IRS? There would have to be some sort of a paper trail.... I would ask the Upgrader for a copy of the original invoice showing his purchase price, While you both have your "Friend's Hat's" on. If he refuse's, You were set-up!!!!! If you were willing to buy this coin, in this price range, I would hope it's in a reputable slab? and maybe you could track it's history. This still sound's like a scam.... Did the upgrader friend actually know well in advance that you were looking for this particular coin? Last but not least,
<< <i>You return to your upgrader to find he has purchased the coin already out from under your very own feet >>
The "upgrader" who told MM about the coin did not buy it. It was sold by its owner to someone else (whom MM also happened to know) before the "upgrader" led MM to it.
<< <i>This sounds like some kind of a "Shell" game, or some kind of a con job. Maybe the John Doe was in it with the other dealer? >>
Nothing has been stated by MM that would leave us to think that.
mark is correct...no shell game and no set up.....many times while hunting for monsters i see the same people.....as we all go where the monsters show up
the circumstances are as stated and are plain vanilla with no under tones or setups.....
there have been many " takes " ( opinions ) here on this thread and the best ones vary a little but all revolve around one key thing
how much do you value the upgraders relationship for future biz and the and amount of remuneration that will apease him and not be too excessive for me
first shot does have a value...in fact many times a huge value...as to me...while keeping my old adage in mind of " sometimes you pay too much for the right coin but you always pay too much for the wrong coin"......having first shot....or making your contacts think of you first means the difference between having a good set and having a great set
the main reason i go to shows is to cut off the monsters from leaving the shows before they are taken home to be sold to others...as once they leave they might not show up again for years and years
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
thanks for your cudos about other posts...as far as this situation your are very perceptive...it does bother me as i thought i knew him better than that as i would always be fair..and in light of the circumstances i thought i was
coinfreak
>>>>> How long was he looking for this coin for you?
he wasnt looking although he did come across it during his " run of the bourse"
>>>>>Did you make a deal with him before to find coins for you or did he just pull the "finders fee" idea out of his a$$
no... first time this isue ever came up...all the other times he owned the coins
A further thought: just how many people out there are willing to pay the finders fee you so generously pony up? Your buddy the upgrader needs to get a grip and move on. He found you nothing that time, it cost him $2k and you $1k! He needs to have learned his two thousand dollar lesson, not sat in the corner with his thumb in his mouth for a year.
<< <i>A further thought: just how many people out there are willing to pay the finders fee you so generously pony up?
I would.... it's insignificant for the right coin. The only mistake the guy made was not getting it on memo and walking it over to monsterman. >>
Granted there are people of great means for whom an additional $2k or even $20k or $200k are "insignificant." The problem with "upgrader" is that he made the "ONLY mistake" that in seemingly any other circumstance would have actually insured that MM never would have seen the coin!
I still think everybody loses, especially "upgrader" if he takes nothing other than a protruding lower lip and unrealistic expectations of a reward for his incompetence from the entire year-plus long debacle....
I just went back to the original post where MM admits that "John Doe" actually bought the coin with MM in mind. He then proceeded to make him beg for it, even though he had "many outs" if MM didn't want it, and then charged him 30% for walking it back to him from across the bourse floor!
I'm not really liking any of these people you feel you have to deal with, MM.
The 'upgrader' (man, that term gives me the woolies) needs to EARN his money. Telling you theres a coin 'over there' ain't helpful. Putting it on hold, or getting it for you on memo is a service that I would pay for. Pointing it out, discovering its already gone and then expecting to be paid anyway is absurd.
Yours is a money making enterprise and this person has made you money in the past. Did you sell the coin for $20000? If yes you would have made $8000 from his pick if it would have happened. A compromise settlement would keep him coming back to you for those occasional $8000 profits. So do you make him feel somewhat good or miss the potential profits he may bring your way in the future? You have already made your mind if you ask me...Take care, Mark
>>>Yours is a money making enterprise and this person has made you money in the past. Did you sell the coin for $20000?
no im a collector and i have been collecting commems for 18 years now.....while i do sell coins from time to time a cursory look at the price multiple i paid would most likely eliminate me specking on the coin in question....it is monster toned and while its not the highest graded ..it is the most monster toned one i have ever seen
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
at the 2004 ana he came up to me on the floor and said i know where a coin is you will want...i said ok what is it and whats the deal
he said its a _______ and the price is 10,000 and i want a 20% finders fee.....while i dont want to mention what it was ( for obvious reasons ) i will say the price at 10,000 was double sheet and high enough but adding 2,000 to it ...it was really high but it would be worth it to me if it was indeed a monster
You don't mention whether you agreed to this arrangement.
so for all this time the upgrader has always thought i owed him 2,000 for finding the coin...when in fact i would of found it in a few minutes after he even mentioned it to me...and at the end of the day ....john doe did indeed buy the coin with me in mind but had many outs if i didnt buy it anyway so it was a no brainer for him
If you believed this before making the chase with this fellow........than you should have said no from the get-go!
You decided to go 13 grand! Pay the guy his $2000 and learn a lesson. If there is another (monster) coin out there and there will be, you can decide then if you want someone to lead you to it, perhaps this guy again or you can decline and do the search yourself. That is, if you're not too busy when that time comes, you may be more thankful, no matter how it went. Getting the coin is what matters! Whether it was a half hour or 10 hours, you wouldn't have paid so much if there weren't other buyers out there for such a coin. Yes, someone else could have begged for that coin before you got to it. This was very possible! And it could have been sold for good!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Sounds like you've got enough money in that coin as it is! However, seeing how you obviously wanted that coin pretty bad and he did find it for you I believe you owe him at least something.
I happen to think everyone has missed the critical issue here.
Forgetting the % finders fee or whether the upgrader deserved the fee at all for a minute, if I had been the upgrader, I would have been very suspicious to find the coin in john doe's display case especially in the not for sale section. No amount of protestation by monsterman that he did not know john doe had already bought the coin or john doe's affirmation that this was the case would have convinced me otherwise. It looked too strange that the coin was tight under monsterman's nose.
I think that what is bothering monsterman is that even though he is totally innocent in the matter and that he really did not know the coin was in john doe's display case would anyone believe that monsterman was innocent?
Had the coin been ANYWHERE ELSE this would not have ever been a concern to monsterman or even the upgrader.
Where it looks especially strange is that as the hypothethical upgrader, I would have felt that monsterman had no choice but to "pretend" to pursue the coin rather than admit that he already got the coin in john doe's display case. As strange as that sounds, I would have felt that monsterman did that rather than appear to have advocated for himself in which case I would no longer be needed as monsterman's upgrader.
If I was a valuable resource to monsterman than not only does monsterman risk losing me as an upgrader but also risks my bad mouthing monsterman to other upgraders, brokers and dealers. That possibility does exist.
$2000 fee may be a cheap price to pay to keep someone's reputation intact. But even a payment of the full $2000 to the upgrader may never remove the "stigma" of a deal gone bad as well as the reputation of monsterman's honesty. In fact, it might makes things worse since so much timer has elapsed!!!!!
But some additional things bother me here:
(1) john doe charged you at least a $3000 finders fee if he paid $10K for the coin up to $5000 finders fee if he paid $8000 for the coin. What does that make john doe? A nice guy if the coin was still a good buy or a greedy dealer if the coin was overpriced.
(2) did you ever discuss the $13,000 price you paid with john doe when the other dealer was charging $10,000?
(3) in the example of the car at the dealership wouldn't anyone else have found it strange that after a trip with the finder to the dealer to buy a special car to be driven home by the finder only to find the same car in your driveway????????
I think that what is bothering monsterman is that even though he is totally innocent in the matter and that he really did not know the coin was in john doe's display case would anyone believe that monsterman was innocent?
>>
Yup, like most here, apparently, i actually believe MM is innocent. Too innocent, in fact.
I still don't like anyone he feels he has to deal with to find his little baby monsters.
Upgrader, who charges 20% for finding, but not securing the coin.
John Doe, who buys the coin for MM, but makes him "beg" for it then charges even more than Upgrader for finding it.
MM - Considering what you're willing to pay for these things, i doubt that upgrader would stop coming to you first as long as you were willing to overpay him more than anyone else.
Go back and read Tonelover's post, or what Coinguy 1 thinks is reasonable as a finder's fee. Those are the kind of guys i like to deal with. Y'all can keep the stinking monsters if it requires dealing with jerks such as your "buddy" John Doe!
The whole thing is quite pitiful, the more i think about it.
I have reread the OP. I do not know all the background, relationships, etc., but if I had to deal with guys like Upgrader and John Doe, I would have been out of coins quite a long time ago.
<< <i>I have reread the OP. I do not know all the background, relationships, etc., but if I had to deal with guys like Upgrader and John Doe, I would have been out of coins quite a long time ago. >>
You guys wanna hear some roofing stories ? I got some outstanding receivables in the hundreds of thousands over the years that would absolutely shock you.... I had one lady not pay her bill cuz she said my guys shoved her old roof down the soil pipe so we could save on dump fees, and NOW her toilet don't flush.
edited to add: Okay, it wasn't funny then, but it is now
"so for all this time the upgrader has always thought i owed him 2,000 for finding the coin...when in fact i would of found it in a few minutes after he even mentioned it to me...and at the end of the day ....john doe did indeed buy the coin with me in mind but had many outs if i didnt buy it anyway so it was a no brainer for him"
>>>>If you believed this before making the chase with this fellow........than you should have said no from the get-go!>>>
at the time the upgrader saw me on the floor... neither of us knew the coin was already sold...to none other than john doe
************note to board************
keep in mind first shot is very important....and while being first shot you might not be " all the money " all the time ....but your close ....enough times to remain first shot...as the old adage comes into play...pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered
thus many times money is left on the table as the upgrader turns volumn instead of waisting time sqeaking every last dollar out of a deal
other variables come into play when pricing monsters as there is no sheet for many of them and these are factors the sellers of these coins have to think about when pricing them as do the buyers ...such as
1) how many buyers and are they there right NOW to pass or play
2) is said coin readily availble in some what close to the grade and look....such as pan pacs of which there are some really nice ones...compared to sesqui....whihc a very few and far between
3) are the services being tuff right now thus hurting the upgrader at the moment.....thus you have to be a good verifier.....meaning is this coin undergraded....should it be in a higher holder.....this btw is the collectors biggest advantage....meaning time....collectors have it upgraders ...many times dont
thus my conclusion to buy is weighted between 3 issues
a) this coin is a good financial decision in a 65 holder if its a future 66
b) this coin is a a so so decision in a 65 holder if it is only a 65
c) this coin is a poor decision in a 65 holder if it is only a 65
obviuosly " c " is a no brainer....but "a" and "b" is where the rubber meets the road......obviously the best success would be to have all "a"s.....but being a collector i will always include some "b" s
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Comments
Furthermore, john doe BOUGHT the coin with you in mind. Upgrader didnt even HOLD it. Upgrader can "pound sand".
Should upgrader still receive a commission if it had sold to someone else and you never saw the coin again???
thanks for informing mike in fla
mike
>>>Had the coin gone to another dealer, not MM's friend, and the deal been cut at $13k, would MM owe him a finder's fee
there are several ifs to be thought about and thus one could reach a different conclusion for each
but there is only one actual set of circumstances
..and his knowledge of the coin and all his actions with regard to me ( which took less 2 minutes ) had nothing to do at all with me ending up with the coin
if on the other hand as i did point out...if the coin was behind someone`s table out of view ( including mt friend john doe ) then he would indeed be entitled me entertaining some form of compensation which would depend on what i had to pay for the coin vrs the original stated deal
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Bruce Scher
A 20% finders fee with no money at risk is way out of line. If the upgrader actually bought the coin, and asked $12K for it, that would have been fine. A 5% finders fee sounds about right for a coin in this price range.
You should be upset with the upgrader for offering you a deal he could not complete. The way I see it, the upgrader owes you that extra $1K you had to pay to own the coin. The upgrader failed to follow through with the deal and he needs to pay up for his failure. If I were in your shoes, I would leave things alone with this upgrader. If he contacts you in the future about another monster, fine, if not, that is fine too.
It is interesting to see how many CU members feel you owe the upgrader money. We must live on different planets.
From your point of view, the deal was dead when the coin could no longer be purchased from the first dealer.
Not that it matters, but who's to say the upgrader didn't have a deal with the first dealer to collect another $1k from him if he could
help sell it for $10k?
In any case, the 20% seems high for just making the connection, though it may have been worth it to you on the right coin.
So, I like the idea of dinner and beers to work things out between you two without offering him anything up front first. You might get a
better gut feeling about the whole thing and both walk away satisfied that things are back on track. Or, it might not work out and it
only cost you a dinner to find out.
As it sits right now, he feels you owe him $2k. If you offer him less than that he may well take it with the idea that he'll get the rest
out of you later.
Ken
<< <i>I would have told you about it and not expected a penny in return. >>
That's exactly right. All the past & future business to this "upgrader" should've been enough payment for a finder's fee.
Yes, but you are just a nice guy, and the "upgrader" (why do we call him that, anyway?) makes his living doing this. I was thinking 5% is plenty for a "no-risk" transaction in which he walks you across the floor to show you a coin. From what I have seen in the past, any real bourse wholesaler should be able to get the coin on memo for 30 minutes to show the coin to you and earn his bucks. Is this guy a "wannabe"?
The more I think about it, I am dumbfounded by the whole process (like FatMan). I am not a collector of "monsters", but I am also not unfamiliar with buying coins in this price range. Perhaps its my lack of connections (or perhaps the good connections I do have), but I have never had to pay a finder's fee to buy a coin from a dealer. I will be sure to post about it here when I do. (Gulp, maybe one time I unknowingly did
Edit: Great (fresh) topic for a thread...I love it when we all get to learn about the dark underside of the coin trade.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
ha ha, not really... I was still mulling over a hoard of junk.... but I checked back and I decided this , monsterman....
Go strait up to this guy and say >>>>> why don't you just punch me in the fist with your face, really hard ... If he takes you up on the offer, he is not that big of a jerk....but if he doesn't, you know he is
I'm only saying this as I see he has always been the owner of the coins he's dealt you with the exception of this one you refer to in the thread. The guy is spoiled and needs a good slap upside the head (proverbially speaking)
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Edit: Great (fresh) topic for a thread...I love it when we all get to learn about the dark underside of the coin trade. >>
Yeah!!
BTW what would that "monster" fetch today?
The assumption in this debate if you will is that this guy should understand and accept the fact that he really didn't procur the coin for you at the price agreed upon. To him this is not relevant, the only relevant point is that he spotted the coin before you did. The fact that it ended up next to you in a case is not relevant to him either. So there is the conundrum. What I would ask myself is how valuable his services are to me in the future, for if you don't pay him something you can kiss the relationship goodbye.
The fact is this guy doesn't view what happened in the same light as us male business types. He is somewhat childlike in his position and may not be open to what we would consider a logical explanation. Bottom line if you want this relationship to continue you will have to pay him a few ounces of flesh.
I agree that the the arrangement was negated when he could not deliver the coin at the price promised.
It is unclear if you are freting because of the ethics of your decision or because you need this upgrader for your own future needs.
It is unclear if this coin was for a private collection or for sale and thus profit. If for the latter you may need to ask how much you can sell the coin for and then if the profit is large how much you wish to share. If it is an ethical issue then you need to search your own ethical practices to gain insights into the "right" thing to do.
I would say that I was in your shoes, the relationship with this upgrader has taken an irreversible turn. I would not trust him and he likewise. I think that 20% for a no risk deal is unwarrented. However if your deal is that he gets 20% for any coin he finds for you then you have a deal provided he delivers. In this case he did not. If the coin was such a sure deal he should have bought the coin and sold it to you. Your relationship with your hanging buddy is also strange. You owe him a profit for a purchased coin. His price is the possible value of the coin (sold by him) minus whatever discount he wishes to give to you based on your relationship. If his wish to delay was because he needed time to price the coin and you coerced him because you knew more about the coin than he did then you have not dealt with him fairly either.
The coin business is a special one: too often driven by need, greed, deceipt, risk, speculation and confused or questionable ethics.
I prefer to work with people I trust; should the trust evaporate so does the relationship.
<< <i>
so for all this time the upgrader has always thought i owed him 2,000 for finding the coin...
>>
gosh, he could probably quit his day job as a "upgrader" if there were enough people around to pay him for finding coins that had already been sold.......
Thats my takle on it anyway
I think when the dealer said sorry, it's already sold......... End's your arrangement with the Upgrader. If there was nothing in writing, No written agreement. There is nothing....... I don't think there is a court in this land, that would uphold a verbal agreement, under such circumstance's. If anything, Sound's like he "Baited" you.
1. Your Upgrader knew where the coin was, and for a finder's fee of 20%, Some friend.......
2. You agreed to pay this amount if you were able to purchase the coin from the dealer, Who said, Sorry it's already sold?????
3. You return to your upgrader to find he has purchased the coin already out from under your very own feet.
4. The Upgrader is planning to bleed you, not just a higher purchase price, But the juice for a finder's fee.
5. This sounds so much like a Automobile dealer using the "Birddog Technique". If your not familiar with this scam, I'll explain.....
You see the neighbor has a new car and you tell him you have been looking for a certain model.... Your neighbor say's he knows exactly where to locate one, and refer's you to "Joe Blow's" Dealership. You say thank's, and you will check it out. Your neighbor head's back in his house and pick's up his phone and call's the car salesman, and tell's him your coming with the intention of purchasing. The Salesman agree's to give him a "birddog" fee if he sell's you the car. So, you buy the car. and quietly your neighbor get's a check.
If the coin in question had a price tag of 10,Grand..... I think by law it is automatically or supposed to be reported to the IRS? There would have to be some sort of a paper trail.... I would ask the Upgrader for a copy of the original invoice showing his purchase price, While you both have your "Friend's Hat's" on. If he refuse's, You were set-up!!!!! If you were willing to buy this coin, in this price range, I would hope it's in a reputable slab? and maybe you could track it's history. This still sound's like a scam.... Did the upgrader friend actually know well in advance that you were looking for this particular coin? Last but not least,
Hope you at least got kissed,
ozzysdad...
<< <i>You return to your upgrader to find he has purchased the coin already out from under your very own feet >>
The "upgrader" who told MM about the coin did not buy it. It was sold by its owner to someone else (whom MM also happened to know) before the "upgrader" led MM to it.
<< <i>This sounds like some kind of a "Shell" game, or some kind of a con job. Maybe the John Doe was in it with the other dealer? >>
Nothing has been stated by MM that would leave us to think that.
the circumstances are as stated and are plain vanilla with no under tones or setups.....
there have been many " takes " ( opinions ) here on this thread and the best ones vary a little but all revolve around one key thing
how much do you value the upgraders relationship for future biz and the and amount of remuneration that will apease him and not be too excessive for me
first shot does have a value...in fact many times a huge value...as to me...while keeping my old adage in mind of " sometimes you pay too much for the right coin but you always pay too much for the wrong coin"......having first shot....or making your contacts think of you first means the difference between having a good set and having a great set
the main reason i go to shows is to cut off the monsters from leaving the shows before they are taken home to be sold to others...as once they leave they might not show up again for years and years
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
awesome line.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>cameonut
thanks for your cudos about other posts...as far as this situation your are very perceptive...it does bother me as i thought i knew him better than that as i would always be fair..and in light of the circumstances i thought i was
coinfreak
>>>>> How long was he looking for this coin for you?
he wasnt looking although he did come across it during his " run of the bourse"
>>>>>Did you make a deal with him before to find coins for you or did he just pull the "finders fee" idea out of his a$$
no... first time this isue ever came up...all the other times he owned the coins
monsterman >>
You don't owe him a dime!
I would.... it's insignificant for the right coin. The only mistake the guy made was not getting it on memo and walking it over to monsterman.
If he is willing to hold a grudge for a year+........a lifetime is just a little longer.
Your relationship with this child will never recover ---you ain't gonna get another referral until hell freezes over.
The lesson for you,monsterman,is this:
Get off yer lazy butt and go find the monsters yerself.
If you expect them to fiind you,than you`ll have to pay the freight.
<< <i>A further thought: just how many people out there are willing to pay the finders fee you so generously pony up?
I would.... it's insignificant for the right coin. The only mistake the guy made was not getting it on memo and walking it over to monsterman. >>
Granted there are people of great means for whom an additional $2k or even $20k or $200k are "insignificant." The problem with "upgrader" is that he made the "ONLY mistake" that in seemingly any other circumstance would have actually insured that MM never would have seen the coin!
I still think everybody loses, especially "upgrader" if he takes nothing other than a protruding lower lip and unrealistic expectations of a reward for his incompetence from the entire year-plus long debacle....
I just went back to the original post where MM admits that "John Doe" actually bought the coin with MM in mind. He then proceeded to make him beg for it, even though he had "many outs" if MM didn't want it, and then charged him 30% for walking it back to him from across the bourse floor!
I'm not really liking any of these people you feel you have to deal with, MM.
jmho
z
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
>>>Yours is a money making enterprise and this person has made you money in the past. Did you sell the coin for $20000?
no im a collector and i have been collecting commems for 18 years now.....while i do sell coins from time to time a cursory look at the price multiple i paid would most likely eliminate me specking on the coin in question....it is monster toned and while its not the highest graded ..it is the most monster toned one i have ever seen
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
he said its a _______ and the price is 10,000 and i want a 20% finders fee.....while i dont want to mention what it was ( for obvious reasons ) i will say the price at 10,000 was double sheet and high enough but adding 2,000 to it ...it was really high but it would be worth it to me if it was indeed a monster
You don't mention whether you agreed to this arrangement.
so for all this time the upgrader has always thought i owed him 2,000 for finding the coin...when in fact i would of found it in a few minutes after he even mentioned it to me...and at the end of the day ....john doe did indeed buy the coin with me in mind but had many outs if i didnt buy it anyway so it was a no brainer for him
If you believed this before making the chase with this fellow........than you should have said no from the
get-go!
You decided to go 13 grand! Pay the guy his $2000 and learn a lesson. If there is another (monster) coin out there and there will be, you can decide then if you want someone to lead you to it, perhaps this guy again or you can decline and do the search yourself. That is, if you're not too busy when that time comes, you may be more thankful, no matter how it went. Getting the coin is what matters! Whether it was a half hour or 10 hours, you wouldn't have paid so much if there weren't other buyers out there for such a coin. Yes, someone else could have begged for that coin before you got to it. This was very possible! And it could have been sold for good!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Forgetting the % finders fee or whether the upgrader deserved the fee at all for a minute, if I had been the upgrader, I would have been very suspicious to find the coin in john doe's display case especially in the not for sale section. No amount of protestation by monsterman that he did not know john doe had already bought the coin or john doe's affirmation that this was the case would have convinced me otherwise. It looked too strange that the coin was tight under monsterman's nose.
I think that what is bothering monsterman is that even though he is totally innocent in the matter and that he really did not know the coin was in john doe's display case would anyone believe that monsterman was innocent?
Had the coin been ANYWHERE ELSE this would not have ever been a concern to monsterman or even the upgrader.
Where it looks especially strange is that as the hypothethical upgrader, I would have felt that monsterman had no choice but to "pretend" to pursue the coin rather than admit that he already got the coin in john doe's display case. As strange as that sounds, I would have felt that monsterman did that rather than appear to have advocated for himself in which case I would no longer be needed as monsterman's upgrader.
If I was a valuable resource to monsterman than not only does monsterman risk losing me as an upgrader but also risks my bad mouthing monsterman to other upgraders, brokers and dealers. That possibility does exist.
$2000 fee may be a cheap price to pay to keep someone's reputation intact. But even a payment of the full $2000 to the upgrader may never remove the "stigma" of a deal gone bad as well as the reputation of monsterman's honesty. In fact, it might makes things worse since so much timer has elapsed!!!!!
But some additional things bother me here:
(1) john doe charged you at least a $3000 finders fee if he paid $10K for the coin up to $5000 finders fee if he paid $8000 for the coin. What does that make john doe? A nice guy if the coin was still a good buy or a greedy dealer if the coin was overpriced.
(2) did you ever discuss the $13,000 price you paid with john doe when the other dealer was charging $10,000?
(3) in the example of the car at the dealership wouldn't anyone else have found it strange that after a trip with the finder to the dealer to buy a special car to be driven home by the finder only to find the same car in your driveway????????
Hope this helps.
<< <i>
I think that what is bothering monsterman is that even though he is totally innocent in the matter and that he really did not know the coin was in john doe's display case would anyone believe that monsterman was innocent?
>>
Yup, like most here, apparently, i actually believe MM is innocent. Too innocent, in fact.
I still don't like anyone he feels he has to deal with to find his little baby monsters.
Upgrader, who charges 20% for finding, but not securing the coin.
John Doe, who buys the coin for MM, but makes him "beg" for it then charges even more than Upgrader for finding it.
MM - Considering what you're willing to pay for these things, i doubt that upgrader would stop coming to you first as long as you were willing to overpay him more than anyone else.
Go back and read Tonelover's post, or what Coinguy 1 thinks is reasonable as a finder's fee. Those are the kind of guys i like to deal with. Y'all can keep the stinking monsters if it requires dealing with jerks such as your "buddy" John Doe!
The whole thing is quite pitiful, the more i think about it.
but hey, that's just my opinion....
I'm thinking we might get this on Oprah, someday
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
And I would tell the guy to blow it out his a$$, unless, frankly, you think you're really going to need to deal with him for coins in the future.
<< <i>I have reread the OP. I do not know all the background, relationships, etc., but if I had to deal with guys like Upgrader and John Doe, I would have been out of coins quite a long time ago. >>
You guys wanna hear some roofing stories ? I got some outstanding receivables in the hundreds of thousands over the years that would absolutely shock you.... I had one lady not pay her bill cuz she said my guys shoved her old roof down the soil pipe so we could save on dump fees, and NOW her toilet don't flush.
edited to add: Okay, it wasn't funny then, but it is now
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
"so for all this time the upgrader has always thought i owed him 2,000 for finding the coin...when in fact i would of found it in a few minutes after he even mentioned it to me...and at the end of the day ....john doe did indeed buy the coin with me in mind but had many outs if i didnt buy it anyway so it was a no brainer for him"
>>>>If you believed this before making the chase with this fellow........than you should have said no from the
get-go!>>>
at the time the upgrader saw me on the floor... neither of us knew the coin was already sold...to none other than john doe
************note to board************
keep in mind first shot is very important....and while being first shot you might not be " all the money " all the time ....but your close ....enough times to remain first shot...as the old adage comes into play...pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered
thus many times money is left on the table as the upgrader turns volumn instead of waisting time sqeaking every last dollar out of a deal
other variables come into play when pricing monsters as there is no sheet for many of them and these are factors the sellers of these coins have to think about when pricing them as do the buyers ...such as
1) how many buyers and are they there right NOW to pass or play
2) is said coin readily availble in some what close to the grade and look....such as pan pacs of which there are some really nice ones...compared to sesqui....whihc a very few and far between
3) are the services being tuff right now thus hurting the upgrader at the moment.....thus you have to be a good verifier.....meaning is this coin undergraded....should it be in a higher holder.....this btw is the collectors biggest advantage....meaning time....collectors have it upgraders ...many times dont
thus my conclusion to buy is weighted between 3 issues
a) this coin is a good financial decision in a 65 holder if its a future 66
b) this coin is a a so so decision in a 65 holder if it is only a 65
c) this coin is a poor decision in a 65 holder if it is only a 65
obviuosly " c " is a no brainer....but "a" and "b" is where the rubber meets the road......obviously the best success would be to have all "a"s.....but being a collector i will always include some "b" s
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language