Is "sniping" ethical (and does it help/hurt buyers/sellers)??

mercurydimeguy · January 17, 2006 2:08AM

...and do you expect that you can build long-lasting relationships with sellers/auctioneers if you practice sniping their auctions?

MikeInFL · January 17, 2006 2:16AM

Of course it is. As long as it is within the rules of the auction, I see no valid argument to the contrary...Mike

LucyBop · January 17, 2006 2:17AM

<< ...and do you expect that you can build long-lasting relationships with sellers/auctioneers if you practice sniping their auctions? >>

if there is a coin i must have, anything is ethical, including casteration.

Hyperion · January 17, 2006 2:23AM

sniping is a system hack and I believe it discourages open bidding. I hope ebay takes measures to prevent the practice.

why do you think in live auctions the auctioneer says "fair warning, fair warning".

IMHO, if there's a bid, add 30 seconds to allow for responses from other bidders.

ss350camaro · January 17, 2006 2:23AM

<< Is "sniping" ethical?? >>

yes

Robgetty · January 17, 2006 2:27AM

I don't like sniping; but the easy response is to say to just bid the most that you are willing to pay.

(Of course, I like to go bargain hunting myself, so I don't follow my own advice.)

I like the idea of adding time for every bid.

Russ · January 17, 2006 2:28AM

<< Is "sniping" ethical?? >>

Yes.

<< ...and do you expect that you can build long-lasting relationships with sellers/auctioneers if you practice sniping their auctions? >>

Most sellers like snipers. I sure do.

<< sniping is a system hack and I believe it discourages open bidding. I hope ebay takes measures to prevent the practice. >>

You're funny.

Russ, NCNE

ss350camaro · January 17, 2006 2:34AM

<< sniping is a system hack and I believe it discourages open bidding. I hope ebay takes measures to prevent the practice. >>

Why ?

<< why do you think in live auctions the auctioneer says "fair warning, fair warning". >>

to alert that the auction will be closing. what else ?

<< IMHO, if there's a bid, add 30 seconds to allow for responses from other bidders. >>

ya right, an auction would never end if that was implemented.

I think most sellers like snipers.

Hyperion · January 17, 2006 2:37AM

the auction would eventually end when someone truly met the top dollar price.

I consider that POV to be short sighted.

13PacesEast · January 17, 2006 2:38AM

Sniping, Cherrypicking, AT, Shorting....

It's all good when $$ can be made.

ss350camaro · January 17, 2006 2:44AM

<< the auction would eventually end when someone truly met the top dollar price.

I consider that POV to be short sighted. >>

oh, so the auction would end when a pre-determined value has been reached? Doesn't sound like an auction to me.

kalch23 · January 17, 2006 2:44AM

Ebay auctions continue to evloe into "Vickrey Auctions," sealed bids where the highest bid wins at the second highest price. Interesting article on the subject:

http://www.agorics.com/Library/Auctions/auction5.html

coinpage · January 17, 2006 2:47AM

Think of sniping as an effecient form of bidding. As a seller would you rather have a snipe bid or no bid at all?

keets · January 17, 2006 2:47AM

sniping is a system hack and I believe it discourages open bidding. I hope ebay takes measures to prevent the practice.
why do you think in live auctions the auctioneer says "fair warning, fair warning".
IMHO, if there's a bid, add 30 seconds to allow for responses from other bidders.

absolute nonsense, did you think before you hit the Reply button or forget to edit the above???

consider that Yahoo Auctions climbed right to the top of the heap with that unique feature of adding five minutes to an auction when a snipe was made!!!! Yahoo gives the name Sleepy Hollow credibility!!!!

also, it just doesn't work comparing a live auction to eBay.....................apples and oranges. my experience with eBay is that for the most part if i really want to win an item, i need to be present at the end of the listing with my finger on the trigger to snipe. entering a bid before the end of the auction and then checking back when it's over means one of two things-----i pay a higher price than i should or i lose.

BTW, sniping is totally ethical on an "eBay" level because it is within the rules, though it might be unethical on a personal level. also, i doubt sellers care how the highest bid is obtained, i know i don't. and i certainly am not looking to build any relationships with eBay sellers. i'm only interested in winning their items and in how their customer service is performed.

coynclecter · January 17, 2006 2:51AM

Under the current rules, its fair and legal. Why should I give a bidder a few hours to decide he wants to pay more. He should bid his maximum and then they wouldn't have to worry. I always wait till the end.

However, it's not good for the seller as it doesn't allow them to get the highest price. I agree that there should be at least a 30 second gap after the last bid before the auction closes even if it extends the end time. My guess is that Ebay knows this but it's not in the software and there no additional profit to them so why change it.

Of course there are some here who think it should stay this way, they can justify anything that works in thier favor.

Heywood · January 17, 2006 2:52AM

Yes- of course it is.

My definition of sniping is me staying up and constantly refreshing the screen to enter my high bid at the last moment.
I don't like sniping software, but that doesn't make it un-ethical.

I still remeber my first E-bay auction ( Bidder) I was updating as it got down to the end, and all of a sudden bids came in from everywhere- What was going on! Went from High bidder with 30 seconds left to confused underbidder by 8 people. lesson one - snipe or be sniped.

I also always hated the " give it you best bid and forget it" response, because getting it for below what I would pay is the goal.

If E-bay wanted to generate the most $ for their sellers ( and fees for them) they would extend every auction for 30 seconds after the last bid. That would get the sellers the highest prices, and would reduce sniping.

I have been on all sides of this situation-
Item high bid of about $40, worth 90-100 retail. put in snipe of $80.00-

auction 1 closes at 40.50- won a great deal
auction 2 closes @ 80.01- lost out by a penny. ( PO'ed, because the coins you miss start to look nicer)
Auction 3 closes out @ $80.00 Someone else tried to sniped @ 79.99. won but feel like I lost ( Even though I was willing to pay 80, I didn't want to have to)

pharmer · January 17, 2006 2:55AM

<< why do you think in live auctions the auctioneer says "fair warning, fair warning". >>

And ebay having an end point of a listing displayed and counted down to the second is the same thing, only better and more precise, in that the guy yelling fair warning may miscontrue someone digging out some ear wax as an intention to bid and delaying the end

-------------------------

50cents · January 17, 2006 2:57AM

I know for a fact eBay loves sniping because it makes them money and money is goood.

Note for myself: ( never try to outbid LucyBop) ouch!

Steve27 · January 17, 2006 2:58AM

"Is "sniping" ethical??"

Yes, and not sniping is stupid.

flaminio · January 17, 2006 3:10AM

<< consider that Yahoo Auctions climbed right to the top of the heap with that unique feature of adding five minutes to an auction when a snipe was made!!!! Yahoo gives the name Sleepy Hollow credibility!!!!

>>

Overstock auctions also do auction extensions, with similar raging success.

I lurv my snipers

eyoung429 · January 17, 2006 3:13AM

Sorry to say that sniping has become a ritual for me now. Most vammers have been bidding the heck out of auctions that I have been bidding on recently and rather than alert anyone, I don't place bids anymore.

I don't know if it is because of my bids, but I have been winning 79% more coins by sniping.

fishcooker · January 17, 2006 3:13AM

and do you expect that you can build long-lasting relationships with sellers/auctioneers if you practice sniping their auctions?

I could not care less about developing and building a long-lasting relationship with an ebay seller.

messydesk · January 17, 2006 3:18AM

Sniping is no less ethical than paying someone to represent you at a live auction. It is also a way of keeping people from stalking your bids.

The reason eBay is set up to encourage sniping is because it must make more money for them than indeterminant auction end times would. It's usually more conventient to submit a sealed bid ahead of the end of the auction than it is to sit around and watch an auction end, especially if you are interested in several lots with roughly the same end time. Also, every bid placed through a sniping site generates revenue for eBay through their pay-per-use web services API. I'm surprised eBay doesn't have "place a sealed bid for a fee" option in their auctions. All sealed bids would be stamped with the end time of the auction.

BigBen · January 17, 2006 3:19AM

Sniping seems to tick off bargain basement buyers the most. It's very easy to "snipe" other buyers who don't want to spend an extra couple of dollars on something that's old and limited or new but sold out at the mint. I've rarely been sniped when I've set my set max bid at a level that's not outrageous but takes into account market forces and how much I really want the product. I've sniped so many cheapskates it ain't funny. So cheapskates do have something to moan about regarding snipers

Just cough up your dough and watch the snipes go away.............

mercurydimeguy · January 17, 2006 3:19AM

Do you think it would help or hurt the capital markets if every broker/trader entered their bid/buy order at 3:59:56 PM Eastern Time?

LucyBop · January 17, 2006 3:20AM

<< Do you think it would help or hurt the capital markets if every broker/trader entered their bid/buy order at 3:59:56 PM Eastern Time? >>

and who cares about that?

MORGANHUNTER2 · January 17, 2006 3:23AM

My wife is a snipe queen- last night- got one with 1 second left. She is gooood.

mercurydimeguy · January 17, 2006 3:24AM

<<and who cares about that?>>

Companies and people who buy and sell securities would probably care about that, and companies and people who own mutual funds might also care...

ziggy29 · January 17, 2006 3:26AM

I used to wonder about that when I did mostly buying. But when I started selling more, the more I appreciated snipers.

And these days, like the system or not, the way it's set up it's pretty foolhardy NOT to snipe, IMO.

coinpage · January 17, 2006 3:26AM

<< Do you think it would help or hurt the capital markets if every broker/trader entered their bid/buy order at 3:59:56 PM Eastern Time? >>

I thought we were talking about timed auctions not an open bid/ask system. As a seller, if you don't like the idea of a timed auction don't sell on eBay, just put the item up for sale on your website (your ask price) and wait to see if you get any bids.

mercurydimeguy · January 17, 2006 3:28AM

<< 

<< Do you think it would help or hurt the capital markets if every broker/trader entered their bid/buy order at 3:59:56 PM Eastern Time? >>

I thought we were talking about timed auctions not an open bid/ask system. As a seller, if you don't like the idea of a timed auction don't sell on eBay, just put the item up for sale on your website (your ask price) and wait to see if you get any bids. >>

I'm attempting to better understand if last second bidding helps or hurts buyers/sellers, so it seems like drawing a parallel to a time-tested marketplace might help.

I just changed the thread title to be a bit more representative of the type of input that would be helpful.

Thanks!

xbob · January 17, 2006 3:33AM

Unless they add silent bidding (i.e. everyone enters their max and we don't know the result until "hammer time") I will continue to use a sniping program. I do think it's ethical since it gives you a chance at obtaining the item at or below your true max. It's nice having no time left to change your mind and bid higher. It keeps me from getting caught up in the momentum and pushing my buy price higher than I want to. If my max bid wasn't high enough, bravo to the winner for bidding higher.

I like it on sales too. It's a thrill to see your item double in selling price in the last minute of the auction.

coinpage · January 17, 2006 3:36AM

<< 

<< 

<< Do you think it would help or hurt the capital markets if every broker/trader entered their bid/buy order at 3:59:56 PM Eastern Time? >>

I thought we were talking about timed auctions not an open bid/ask system. As a seller, if you don't like the idea of a timed auction don't sell on eBay, just put the item up for sale on your website (your ask price) and wait to see if you get any bids. >>

I'm attempting to better understand if last second bidding helps or hurts buyers/sellers, so it seems like drawing a parallel to a time-tested marketplace might help.

I just changed the thread title to be a bit more representative of the type of input that would be helpful.

Thanks! >>

Oh. I think that for items that are more homogeneous like a share in a company or an ounce of gold an open bid/ask system provides better liquidity and a fairer price, but when items are not homogeneous like a toned morgan dollar a timed system provides better liquidity (i.e. a faster transaction) but not necessarily a fairer price.

DMWJR · January 17, 2006 3:36AM

How do I feel about sniping? Nothing but recoil!

Preussen · January 17, 2006 3:37AM

<< I like it on sales too. It's a thrill to see your item double in selling price in the last minute of the auction. >>

I agree; mine did that......once

- Preussen

flaminio · January 17, 2006 3:37AM

<< I'm attempting to better understand if last second bidding helps or hurts buyers/sellers, so it seems like drawing a parallel to a time-tested marketplace might help. >>

The previously posted link about Vickrey auctions is very educational about this. (Link; googling "vickrey" returns more useful information.) Rampant sniping turns eBay auctions into de facto Vickrey auctions, which have been proven to be most efficient for both buyers and sellers.

LucyBop · January 17, 2006 3:37AM

<< <<and who cares about that?>>

Companies and people who buy and sell securities would probably care about that, and companies and people who own mutual funds might also care... >>

and phooooooooooey on all of them, they have nothing to do with me sniping a needed coin on ebay.

BigD5 · January 17, 2006 3:41AM

Sniping is ethical. Whether you bid at the beginning, middle or end of the auction, if you bid enough, you will win.

The second part of your question is a different animal though and it can be expanded to include dealers in general, not simply online venues.

Many established dealers I see on a regular basis note the dramatic drop-off in "regular" customers. They feel there is definitely more of a "mercenary" type buyer in the market today. By that I mean a buyer's loyalties lean more towards getting the cheapest price, as opposed to focusing on establishing and continuing a business relationship with a trusted few dealers.

Most of the change in a collectors buying habits are being brought on by the many online oppurtunities to purchase coins.

I don't see this trend ending soon, and I think this trend will spell the end of the brick and mortar coin shop as most of us know. You'll see pawn shops where you can trade in the bullion type items and an ever expanding online market to dispose of numismatic related items.

If you're a price buyer, the internet is the place for you.

If you are focusing on a certain segment or series, and you are looking for quality coins on a consistent basis, you should tie yourself in with dealers that focus in those respective areas. The fear with that commitment for some collectors is that they will pay "too much" for their coins. Good coins are worth good money and they will hold their value almost all the time, so "too much" isn't what it seems.

MrHalfDime · January 17, 2006 4:03AM

Is your problem with sniping WHEN I bid or WHAT I bid? Remember... if I snipe an item and win, it was not so much because I bid late in the auction, but because I bid MORE than you. Period. You could have placed a larger proxy bid, any time you wanted, if you really wanted the item. Don't criticise me merely for my timing. It was not my timing that won the lot. It was my maximim bid.

Most criticism of sniping appears to be 'sour grapes' from people who were trying to find a bargain. Sniping, as has been said, is legal on eBay, is widely practiced, and is not likely to be discouraged by eBay. Besides, it is much less violent than castration.

mercurydimeguy · January 17, 2006 4:09AM

<< Is your problem with sniping WHEN I bid or WHAT I bid? >>

Steve, I don't have a problem with sniping, but apparently people feel quite passionate about this topic.

<<Besides, it is much less violent than castration.>>

Now that's a bit OT, isn't it??

lloydmincy · January 17, 2006 4:16AM

"sniper"? I think the term is "HIGHEST BIDDER".

joeyuk · January 17, 2006 4:29AM

There is 1 dealer on e-bay I do the opposite of a snipe on. They start the auction at what they would accept.
I place a minimum bid and always get a second chance offer because they have multiples. It is a shame because I have been taught to bid low on their auctions.

I hope their not listening.

MrHalfDime · January 17, 2006 4:30AM

<<Besides, it is much less violent than castration.>>

Now that's a bit OT, isn't it??

Hey, I was just commenting on a previous post.

Hyperion · January 17, 2006 4:37AM

<< 

<< the auction would eventually end when someone truly met the top dollar price.

I consider that POV to be short sighted. >>

oh, so the auction would end when a pre-determined value has been reached? Doesn't sound like an auction to me. >>

it would end when the last person put in thier top dollar they'd be willing to pay. like a real auction.
how hard is this concept to understand ?

mercurydimeguy · January 17, 2006 4:42AM

If the consensus is that sniping is good for buyers/sellers, why do you think coin auction companies haven't embraced this and enabled this type of functionality for their internet only auctions?

CharlieB · January 17, 2006 4:46AM

<< Sorry to say that sniping has become a ritual for me now. Most vammers have been bidding the heck out of auctions that I have been bidding on recently and rather than alert anyone, I don't place bids..... >>

I agree with you

BigD5 · January 17, 2006 4:59AM

<< If the consensus is that sniping is good for buyers/sellers, why do you think coin auction companies haven't embraced this and enabled this type of functionality for their internet only auctions? >>

Most coin auction companies are looking to sell to floor bidders, that would be the major reason there.

As far as internet auctions other than Ebay, there's Heritage and these IO auctions are a tiny segment of what they do and I'm not sure if they're that concerned over snipes with what is listed there.

InYHWHWeTrust · January 17, 2006 5:02AM

Sniping keeps me out of bidding wars and going over budget, passion/emotions vs. self-control
Proxy sniping or software costs money but may be better protection from home PC problems, storms, etc.
Early on in my ebay life, I tried some 'manual' sniping, once at 1AM closing time, and the lightning storm at 12:45AM finished off that endeavor!

Don

Jcarney · January 17, 2006 5:05AM

If it wasn't for my snipe, the seller would have to settle for less money for their item. As an occasional seller, I welcome snipers with open arms.

John

flaminio · January 17, 2006 5:07AM

<< it would end when the last person put in thier top dollar they'd be willing to pay. like a real auction. >>

What is a "real auction"? There are many different types of auctions. eBay's model is just as "real" as any other auction type.

Russ · January 17, 2006 5:27AM

<< it would end when the last person put in thier top dollar they'd be willing to pay. like a real auction.
how hard is this concept to understand ? >>

"Real" auctions charge a buyer's fee for the privilege of bidding until the bidding ends. eBay is fine just the way it is.

Russ, NCNE

Is "sniping" ethical (and does it help/hurt buyers/sellers)??

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Is &quot;sniping&quot; ethical (and does it help/hurt buyers/sellers)??

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Is "sniping" ethical (and does it help/hurt buyers/sellers)??