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Don't buy raw coins and spare yourself of some headaches
lava
Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭
Everytime I read posts I see that following my advice of "don't buy raw" would have solved the problem. Yes you miss out on some decent coins, but you will probably be better off in the long run, as the bad deals you are spared from making probably more than offset the few missed opportunities.
I brake for ear bars.
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I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
--Severian the Lame
Sure they'll buy a few dogs, but they'll get some nice ones to offset the dogs.
However, they shouldn't purport to "know" how to grade (either) simply because they own a lot of slabs and claim to "know" what is or isn't.
The only thing slab buyers will miss out on is the joy of finding nice raw coins and putting them in to slabs.
Speaking as one who has done this countless times, it is truly a rewarding feeling.
Even over the past 5-10 years, raw coins have offered me nothing I couldn't have gotten by buying decent slabs in their place. Certainly an exception would be being offered an old time raw collection and you having first shot? Sure, how often does that happen to anyone? Last time for me was in 1988, and there were scores.
Once every 20 years.
Unless you do have extensive experience, the odds are stacked against you contrary to what others may tell you. Same goes for raw coins at auction where your odds are even slimmer. The coins that you do get will be the ones left behind by the sharp dealers who know there is no money in the coin (cleaned, AT, other problems).
roadrunner
<< <i>Don't buy raw coins >>
I rarely do otherwise.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I'd say buying raw is fine under as long as you truely know the series your looking at and you can see and hold the coin in person before making a decision. >>
I agree. One can really miss out on A LOT of really good coins if they decide to stay away from raw coins because they're afraid of getting burned. However, I do think it would be unwise to buy a raw coin sight unseen from an unknown dealer or from someone who doesn't offer a return policy.
Jade Rare Coin eBay Listings
<< <i>So before the TPGS's graced the earth, how did this hobby survive ??? >>
I bet there are some that believe PCGS built the pyramids---they have been here always----- they must have- they are gods aren't they ???
<< <i>I understand the philosophy for less sophisticated collectors, but ones that have experience and know what they like don't have to pass anything up. >>
I couldn't agree more!
Frankly, I like to be able to hold a coin in my hand, metal to flesh, and view it with having to look through plastic to see it. I also like the look of raw coins sitting in albums next to their brothers and sisters.
When and if I ever decide to sell, I will sell the less expensive coins raw and hope I at least break even (when I do sell, I will gain substantial experience on the divesting side of the hobby to go with the experience I have in the acquiring side). For more expensive pieces, I will one day join a TPG and have them graded and slabbed before I sell. Since coins are a hobby for me, the money I devote to it is discretionary and if I do not break even or profit, it will not be a big deal.
<< <i>I bet there are lots of people who bought SGS, UGS, NTC, ACG, PGC, NNC, ACCS, etc., etc., coins who have plenty of headaches. >>
I should have qualified my statement, so thanks for doing it for me.
Still it is wise to know your coins/ tokens and their markets or getting it slabbed before spending a large amount on anything.
do you prefer
slabbed
or
raw
I dont know how to do the polls , so if some one want to,...cool
A. from a respected dealer.
B. you are satisfied with coin in your hand before you pay.
C. you paid, but have a return policy from honest seller.
D. you are willing to lose money and not mention it on the forum.
D you suck it up, lose money and tell us all, so we can act all high and mighty.
E. what else?
I know the phrase : "Don't buy raw" often times refers to "key dates" from years gone past , so I'll use Pre-1933 as a basis for arguement, .... there are hoards out there. I know this for a fact as I am preparing to close on one in the next couple of days. So what to do ? Shall I bear the burden of paying a TPG to authenticate any "KEYS" that are located throughout the search ?.... some four thousand coins ? Let's step back, if only for a moment, and remember..... many a hoard of circulated pieces sit out there, nestled in a china hutch, a grandfather clock, a safe deposit box... and keep in mind, my friends.........many of these hoards were stashed long before there were such a thing as a TPG. Most of them were stored by people that had already stashed these coins before David Hall was even born..... I like to call them the PARANOID of our Government folks that were born in the twenties and survived the great depression. Some of them saved change inside walls, I have met some who have shown me pieces found in farmhouses during re-modelling jobs (GOLD). Let's not forget, some people were just stashing CASH. There was no thought of the "collectibility" of the coin. It was "SAVE for a RAINY day money" because Roosevelt said "TURN IN THE GOLD" and created an atomosphere by which our leaders were no longer trusted, nor our banks.
I guess the thing is, if you want to be sure of something, be sure of taxes and death.... otherwise, keep an open mind, find someone you may be able to develope a friendship and communication with who also is a knowledgeable person in the field and exchange what is necessary to build Trust !... Then buy RAW all day long
There is no set rule when buying and selling coins.... We have all seen the scum.... unlike the cream..... it sinks to the bottom rather than rising to the top.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Some collectors like to buy raw thinking they are getting bargains. I think raw coin bargains would likely already been had by someone else.
Comes time for selling, and the raw coins simply do not bring the high prices realized. JMHO
<< <i>So before the TPGS's graced the earth, how did this hobby survive ??? >>
The HOBBY survived just fine. It wasn't having any problems. It was only the people who wanted to try and turn it into an investment medium that were having problems. In general costs were lower and people didn't spend big money unless they knew what they were buying or were stupid. Today people freely spend big money on things they know nothing about based solely on the number on a label. I will admit they are safer than they would have been before the TPG (Back then a lot of them would have been included with the stupid class) And as for the stupid, even slabs won't protect them completely. They will wind up with overgraded coins, low end coins, and of course coins that get buried in because they have no idea of the market and greatly overpay for. (Not to mention the fourth tier and fly-by-night company slabs that they buy because they don't know any better. The cheating of people in coins hasn't ended, just changed form a little.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Raw, Raw, Raw
I been buying raw coins on E-bay for several years now and submitting a few to PCGS. Sure, I've been burned, but nothing I couldn't afford. I've really had a lot of fun and learned one heck of a lot, so I consider it money well spent. For me being relatively new to coins, it's been a great way for me to learn. But just about everything is under $50 and I don't remember spending more than $100. That's pocket change for some and way too much for others, so it's all relative to your budget. I think it's great fun sending coins in for grading even if a few come back lower than I hoped! I've scored some nice MS65 coins that way. I do buy a few slabbed coins as well.
My biggest burn was purchasing a nicely toned 1958-D Franklin in a NGC holder on E-bay. It took me a few months to realize that the slab had been tampered with and an AT coin put in there. I did spend over a $100 on that one, but I consider it the price of learning! It's a nice looking coin too, but I don't think it'll cross over!
MORE RAW FOR ME.
Obviously there is a monetary cut off and perhaps even $500 is to high, since today’s $300 coins are the $500 coins of tomorrow.
If I have learned anything here these past years it is that there are NO expert graders that hit the mark every time, but the TPG’S eliminate 90% of the worries for a cheap price.
During the next decade millions of new collectors will likely come into numismatics, and most of these will be from outside the borders of the U.S. from places like China and India. These countries have very little in the way of a coin collecting past or a supply of rare coins from their own countries. Our U.S. coins will be dark side coins to them, but they will invest their hard earned money here because our numismatic system of collecting is the most sophisticated on the planet backed by various types of warranties. These new collectors will want certified coins, first because of the amount of fakes in their own countries, and second because of the warranties.
If you want to see what happened to a collector that collected raw coins go look at the Jules Reiver collection at Heritage where 30% of the coins got bagged, and put into NCS holders. Look at the bids on these coins compared to the NGC slabbed coins.
This is not a derogatory comment on this collection, and sure some R6 and R7 coins can ONLY be purchased with problems, but many of the coins in this collection were common enough to be purchased without problems for the same money when they were collected. Mr. Reiver did not have the same opportunity with the TPG’S we have today, but we should learn from this sale. Mr. Reiver was one of the top collectors in the country with some of the best advice from his peers and dealers, so what chance do you think you have to build a problem free collection buying raw?
“So before the TPGS's graced the earth, how did this hobby survive ???”
Well here are a few answers to that question;
THIS IS NOT JUST A HOBBY ANY LONGER
There are currently 10 billionaires in this market and thousands of millionaires.
You can no longer find rare coins in change
Many dealers are making millions of dollars each year selling coins to the public, are they all honest?
Coin doctors are out in force changing surfaces
Most of the serious collectors in our ”hobby” have huge investments in their collections, as well as a large percentage of their net worth.
Carefully buying a few select coins each year can bring the average person the highest rate of investment return of any investment on the planet.
However, I continually buy for re-sale purposes, and have done much better ($) buying raw coins and making them then already holdered coins. Not very often do fresh items come through down here, but when it does I capitilize on the "dealers " in this area inexperience in grading coins.
jim
I enjoy buying raw coins for my albums and will continue to do so. These coins are always under $500, many less than $100, and often not worth slabbing anyway. For my gold coin collection, I buy slabbed, but it is somewhat self-fulfilling because the better coins usually come that way. When you see a rare date gold coin outside a holder, there is often a (sinister) reason why.
David
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
My collection of pre-33 US Gold coins will only have PCGS certified coins in there, because the risk is to great.....
My VG Barber Half & Quarter sets (likely will not have the 3 keys), will be entirely raw because the price of the coins.....
So I would say at a certain price level or with gold slabs are a good thing.....
The "hobby" survived by raping over 90% of the sellers and collectors. You could call it a bloodbath. I know I lost thousands of dollars in the 70's and early 80's on so called gems I bought that turned out to be AT or what have you. And I was one of the lucky ones. Except for the dealers, I would say most everyone lost money to support the dealer's profits. Some hobby. Even those in for investment only, most of them lost money too. Why would you expect anything different? There wasn't enough communications like there is today to share stories of getting screwed. In 1983 I was sent a gem 1858-0 seated quarter for $3000 from one of the top 3 coin dealers in the nation at that time. The coin was a pos cleaned AU55 worth all of $300. Luster was totally stripped. Today that coin is worth $300. I was lucky that Brad Bonhert of Superior found me the real deal for $4200 at that same time. That coin is now worth $40K or so (and still the only gem known to me). It was the Wild West back then. The FTC finally stepped in a few times by the mid-80's and the message was: cleanup or we'll do it for you.
PCGS came about soon after. They hobby may have turned over and died if not for PCGS and NGC.
Bully Goldsaint, you have made the point I was trying to get across crystal clear. Many of us, myself included, think we are immune to the mistakes of the hobby because we have 20-40 years in the hobby. It really doesn't matter. Unless you are doing it every day like a dealer, and keeping up with the "doctors" you will not win out in the long run. Even the major dealers who do auctions get their heads handed to them at times. I mean they lose money on the entire auction....not just a lot or two. The real fallacy is that each of us thinks we can "win" consistently and I'm saying you probably cannot. I know I cannot win at raw auctions for higher powered coins unless I take a 100% conservative route and touch nothing that is suspect and not cheap. And with that philosophy you cannot buy enough to cover your expenses. Out of 6 coins I may get 1 or 2 scores. And in that same group 1 or 2 will be losers. More than likely the losers will cancel or outweigh the winners. Go ahead and remove the top 3 to 6 cracker/wholesalers from the auction room and I can do ok. But with them there, it's a different environment.
And the lots they back off on that look ok to most, are probably the traps.
During a recent Long Beach auction I "cherrypicked" 2 ANACS slabbed coins for upgrade. A gem BU 65 Lib nickel & a PF65DCAM seated quarter. I had learned my lesson about cracking out stuff too quickly but I "knew" (lol) these were "no brainer" to cross or upgrade. On luster and marks both were. Well the quarter came back altered sufaces (twice) and the nickel (stained). I sold both at cost to one of the largest retailers. Suspect the quarter was either frosted or lasered or both. The state of the art is better than me.
Another recent raw seated 25c I bought was a hands down MS66/67 with just gorgeous orig surfaces. I couldn't pull out the $1200 fast enough to hand over to the vest-pocket dealer. I'd have paid $1500 without blinking. Everyone I showed it to was wowed. Well after a year, and 3 trips to the TPG's it came back (stained) each time. I couldn't see it, but I'm not a doctor. As the market heated up I sold the coin for $1500 to a crack out artist 2 years ago.
I did not disclose the coin's grading history as a top 10 cracker should stand-alone on their skills. They would do no different for me.
Had anyone offered me my cost at any time I'd have dumped it. I just took a small shot to make up for lost bank interest. The coin could probably have done well at auction too. Maybe it has already ended up holdered as 66. Who knows. But I was missing something based on 3 consecutive "stained" grades. Maybe I need to go back to Medical School and brush up doc! For now, slabs offer some cover from the AT, ED, AS, Lasered, Frosted, cleaned, etc. examples out there. Just last week got back a coin that no one thought would come back less than 63. I had offers to buy it. But I wanted the 64 shot first. It came back "cleaned." My friends could not understand it either, but there it is in black and white. And these are friends who submits lots of high end type. Time to churn and churn on another one that was not yet annointed.
For 99% of us, buy a nice coin holdered. Simple as that. You will save a lot headaches and time. You may not be able to brag about your 2-1 score, but that same guy is not telling you about his 50% losses either (you can be sure of that).
roadrunner
<< <i>Mr. Reiver was one of the top collectors in the country with some of the best advice from his peers and dealers, so what chance do you think you have to build a problem free collection buying raw? >>
And I'm sure that Jules knew that they were "problem" coins when he bought them. His main interest was in completeness and die states. Condition was of secondary importance. (I've only looked at some of the early copper, but probably 90+% of ALL of the early copper out there are bodybag candidates. I know several of the top collctions out ther and they all have "bodybag" coins in them.
The average collector takes several years to learn to grade consistently. Until she/he learns that, stay with coins where the grade doesn't make the price. For coins that are widely counterfeited such as small American gold coins, and certain key dates, definitely stick with certified. Counterfeit detection and authentication will take longer than learning how to grade. For high grade coins, especially certified ones, buy where the next grade down isn't a big hit in price.
For high price coins ($1000 and up), please take the time (a year or so) to learn the market before spending liberally. Not all grading companies are created equal, especially the so-called third-world companies, but even the big three. There has been more than one story about a newbie that bought some of these "third-world" high grade slabs and then offered them to a dealer. The offer was pennies on the dollar and would be about what most dealers would offer for the coins. Offers also will vary widely for coins graded by the so-called big three. Research this (using auction results at Ebay, Teletrade and Heritage) and know this before you buy. Unless, you want to be the latest newbie with a sob story to tell.
For instance, years ago I bought a beautiful, raw, (in a dansco album), set of BU Washington quarters, dated from 1932 thru 1964. The dealer was looking to flip the set, and basically added about 10% to his cost. The set was missing the 1932-D, I could see that the 32-S was lightly cleaned, but even so, I could see many high grade examples of other key and semi key date coins. After purchasing the set, I had about 10 of the better date coins certified by ANACS, and sure enough, the 35-D, 40-D, and a few other semi-key dates, came back MS-65, and many of the others were either MS-64, (including the 36-D, 39-S), or MS-63. The 32-S came back net graded, like I anticipated, but even so, I was still way ahead of the game.
Currently, I specialize in collecting higher grade circulated Barber quarters and halves. Without the ability to buy raw coins, your choices can become very limited in this series. In fact, when I buy raw coins, I consider myself much more picky than the TPG services, when it comes to grading, and selecting original looking Barber's.
I try to stay away from buying raw coins on Ebay, but I will buy raw coins from reputable dealer's who specialize in the series that I collect. This should not be a problem if they have a good return policy. Most dealer's that I buy raw coins from, know how picky I am, and won't waste their time, or my time, sending me inferior coins. So far, my returns have been very limited.
If you know how to grade the series you collect, and if it's a mail order deal - and there's a good return policy on the coin, then I have no problem at all in buying raw coins.
Connor Numismatics Website
Buy coins that have nice eye appeal, that you will enjoy, and use discretionary income. Buy what you like, and like what you buy. And don't worry what other people think.
Raw can be good , and some plastic cannot be trusted.
Some dealers are good and some cannot be trusted.
Coins are made in the trillions, but key dates are KEY for a reason: RARITY
If one wants a KEY DATE or Rarity , chances are it is not going to fall out of a slot machine or that you will likely get it at the grocery store, so to get it, expect to pay for it as even hoards are usually free of the key dates, either having been cherrypicked by the original owner and set aside, or even more true: That person who hoarded started his career of hoarding by looking for "KEY" dates, himself... and ended up with "commons".
Mr Hall has said it to all of us : Don't Buy Raw
The bottom line is : if you buy a coin of Significant Value or of Numismatic Importance, you should treat it like you would a serious medical issue............get a second opinion from a professional before making a costly decision.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
.............PCGS initial grade...PCGS round 2...PCGS round 3...PCI round 4...NGC round 5
1916-P........MS64FB................MS66FB............MS67FB
1928-P........MS65FB................MS64FB............MS64FB............MS65FB..........MS66FB
1937-D........MS65FB................MS64FB............MS64FB............MS63FB..........MS65FB
1937-S........MS66FB................MS64FB............MS65FB............MS64FB..........MS65FB
1944-D........MS67FB................MS66FB............MS65FB............MS65FB..........MS65FB
1944-D........MS67FB................MS66FB............MS65FB............MS65FB..........MS65FB
1945-D........MS66FB................MS66FB............MS65FB............MS65FB..........MS66FB
1945-S........MS66FB................MS65FB............MS64FB............MS65FB..........MS64FB
Now the above might not just be that alarming to you, but imagine for a second that they were not common Mercs but a 16-D, 19-S or D Merc, or a 26-S Merc, or an 18-D, etc. In some instances the difference in value could be as much as $35,000.
Net-net, I will submit to you that when people buy plastic there might as well not even be a grade on the plastic -- it is completely irrelevent. All that the MSYY code does is help you find the line item to look up the price in a price list. To make it easier the TPG's might as well put a $$ amount on the plastic instead of the grade. In essence TPG's don't grade your coins -- they appraise them (e.g. establish their value). As such the reason why a coin frequently (not always) trades in a certain range has less to do with the coin's grade and more to do with a TPG's appraisal of the coin, and supported by the perceived accuracy of their appraisal (funny how sometimes perception is a lot more powerful than reality).
However, people who buy raw coins will more often buy the coin and not the holder, and typically will pay less attention to the assigned grade on the slab and more attention to the coin in the slab. The challenge these people face most often, however, is the number of tries it takes them for the TPG to agree with them. And sometimes, they just leave the coin the way it is.
Now I know the cynic will say that each time the coin is cracked it gets worst, but that's bunk and you know it.
<<So before the TPGS's graced the earth, how did this hobby survive ???
The "hobby" survived by raping over 90% of the sellers and collectors. >>
You still get raped, just by different people and in a different way. The result -- you don't know that you're being raped because it doesn't hurt, you actually benefit by the raping, and everyone else is being raped right alongside you...so you get desensetized after a while.
What a wonderful hobby!
This has been a very interesting thread. I believe strongly in using the tpg's if you're into expensive type and gold, like roadrunner and ryk. If you're buying lame modern crap like Russ, then you can buy raw and make your own. One of the things that is good about this hobby/field is that there is a tremendous amount of diversity that works with anybody's financial resources....
<< <i>1916-P........MS64FB................MS66FB............MS67FB >>
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>1916-P........MS64FB................MS66FB............MS67FB >>
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ, my avatar coin.....it has dual meaning to me
I've been there myself - several times. Yet there are still so many who think PCGS is infallible.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE