Options
What's the difference between the 1922 "Weak D" and "No D Weak Reverse"
seanq
Posts: 8,731 ✭✭✭✭✭
I noticed holders with both descriptions on Teletrade recently, and PCGS maintains populations of both separately. I also noticed that coins in the the "No D Weak Reverse" holders went for significant premiums over their "Weak D" counterparts.
Did PCGS change the way they holder these coins to prevent confusion? And if I were to submit a 1922 "Weak D" cent from Die pair #1 or #3 today, which holder would PCGS put the coin in?
Sean Reynolds
Did PCGS change the way they holder these coins to prevent confusion? And if I were to submit a 1922 "Weak D" cent from Die pair #1 or #3 today, which holder would PCGS put the coin in?
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
0
Comments
The 3 die pairs can be identified as follows:
Die Pair #1:
Second 2 in date is weaker than the first 2.
First T in TRUST is smaller and more distinct than the other letters.
WE is very mushy.
Reverse is very weak, usually with no lines in the wheat ears.
Die Pair #2:
Second 2 in date is sharper than the first 2.
All letters in TRUST are sharp.
WE is only slightly mushy.
L in LIBERTY butts up against the rim.
Reverse is sharp.
Die pair #3:
Second 2 in date is weaker than first 2.
TRUST is weak but sharper than IN GOD WE.
L in LIBERTY butts up against the rim.
Reverse is weak -- lower left part of O in ONE begins to spread into the field as the die deteriotates.
Top 10 Cal Fractional Type Set
successful BST with Ankurj, BigAl, Bullsitter, CommemKing, DCW(7), Downtown1974, Elmerfusterpuck, Joelewis, Mach1ne, Minuteman810430, Modcrewman, Nankraut, Nederveit2, Philographer(5), Realgator, Silverpop, SurfinxHI, TomB and Yorkshireman(3)
I know all about the three die pairs, and that only Die pair #2 is the "real" No-D, and PCGS certifies those as "No-D Strong Reverse." My question is, what is PCGS currently calling the other die pairs - they show inthe pop reports under two descriptions, and I would like to know which one is current. I suspect they changed from "No D Weak Reverse" to "Weak D" to prevent people who don't understand the distinction from paying a huge premium for one of the lesser die pairs. A brief look at Teletrade prices realized bears out that the "Weak D" holders realize about 75% less than a similarly graded coin in a "No D Weak Reverse" holder.
Thanks,
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
now all collectors have to do is to stop payying a huge premium for a suspected rarity created from a worn die or a grease filled die. to each their own, i guess. collect on!!!!!!
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
(1) 1922-D weak D, (2) 1922 no D Strong Reverse and (3) 1922 no D Weak Reverse.
what about people paying premiums for "no D Strong Reverse" with the worn off D, are they any wiser??
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
If absolutly NO trace of a D can be seen, PCGS would slab it "NO D Weak Reverse"
Coins that are "Weak D" came from the other two dies that produced No D Cents, the Strong Reverse die pair 2, of course, being the rarest, because they were coined that way from the beginning, the D being abraided off with no trace visible.
Pete
If you are saying ALL die #1 and die #3 varieties are slabbed as weak D by PCGS, then what die does PCGS recognize in order to slab a coin, no D weak reverse?
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>I went through a same thing in November. PCGS speak is confusing but I gathered is if there is no trace of D at 10X, it can go no D weak reverse. If there's a trace of D it goes weak D. >>
That's it in a nutshell. All No D strong reverse coins are from die pair #2, and all are slabbed as "No D" because they never had a "D" to begin with. Die Pairs #1 and #3 had a weak reverse and a "D" to begin with, but the "D" wore off eventually as the dies wore, so all "Weak D" examples came from these 2 die pairs when the dies wore halfway or so. When the dies wore enough and finally no trace of the "D" was left, then they are slabbed as "No D weak reverse". The values of the "Weak D" examples are quite nominal, "No D Weak Reverse" values are significant and "No D Strong Reverse" values could be astronomical, especially in XF and higher.
On DIes 1 and 3 the D was there but filled with grease,etc.
Anacs has never slabbed any of them as NO D's unless they were DIe2.
PCGS in the past (and currently?) slabbed the weak reverses with no sign of the D as NO D Weak Reverse. Those coins are not worth anywhere near the money I see people foolishly spending.
We all seem to be familiar with the three die states and the diagnostics identified with each one. Well, PCGS in their infinite wisdom has determined to look at the so called "grease filled" dies (#1 and #3) a little differently. They slab NOT based on the diagnostics, but on the visabilty of the mint mark on the coin. Now that might make sense for uncirculated examples, but when you get down to very good or fine condition, then it could mean that a so called weak D in extra fine condition becomes a no D because of wear in very good condition. I think maybe PCGS didn't want to deal with grading this coin based on diagnostics. It DOES cause some confussion to collectors who would think there is a direct relationship between the three die varieties and the three PCGS grading conditions. Only the second die variety and corresponding strong reverse are directly related. And to many of us THAT is the ONLY 1922 plain Lincoln cent that should be recognized as a major variety and carry a significant premium. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>That's it in a nutshell. All No D strong reverse coins are from die pair #2, and all are slabbed as "No D" because they never had a "D" to begin with. Die Pairs #1 and #3 had a weak reverse and a "D" to begin with, but the "D" wore off eventually as the dies wore >>
Actually all three dies had strong D mintmarks when they were new. The weak and no D coins all come from old worn out dies that should have been retired, but the Philadelphia mint wouldn't send any more dies so they used them far beyond their normal die life. After polishing, die 2's mintmark was completely gone and it was mated to a new reverse die. Dies 1 & 3 still had traces of a D that tended to come and go. They were paired with worn reverse dies.