Doubled Die Obverse in the 2005 P Ocean In View Nickels (two types)

Russellhome · December 30, 2005 3:59AM

Now that the news is out, I can finally talk about 2 new Doubled Die discoveries in the 2005 Westward Journey Nickel sets. Billy Crawford, who just reported one of these types (and referred to the 2nd) in the current issue of Numismatic News (Jan 3, '06 - page 30), granted me permission to link to his web pages with photos of the new discoveries.

The 2005 P Ocean In View Type I DDO is the same DDO as first reported for the 2005 P Bison nickel. In other words, during production, the mint switched out the reverse dies from the Bison to the Ocean in View - keeping the same obverse die. This resulted in a single DDO variety that has two different reverses. Because the obverse dies are the same for both nickel types - it is exactly the same DDO (same doubling, same markers) for both the Bison and OIV nickels. It is likely that this is a first in numismatic history (at least for US coins) and this core of the article that Billy wrote for the current issue of Numismatic News. Here is a link to Billy Crawford's photos of this version of the doubled die (which applies to both the Bison and OIV nickels):

Link to Billy Crawford's Photos of the Ocean In View DDO Discovery (Type I - Matching the Bison DDO)

The 2005 P Ocean In View Type II DDO is a newly discovered variety and is covered on Page 3 of the current issue of Coin World (Jan 9, '06). I actually got a nickel of this type to Billy Crawford a day before Ken Potter received one from a different source. But because of different submission deadlines, Ken got the scoop on this new DDO variety in his Coin World article. But I will say this, Billy's photos turned out much better. If you've seen the photos in Coin world, compare them to the link below. This OIV DDO is similar to that of the original Bison DDO, but the heaviest doubling is in 'IN GOD WE" -- where the original Bison DDO was heaver in 'TRUST and LIBERTY". Overall, the amount of doubling is about the same, just in different areas. Here is a link to Billy's photos of this new OIV DDO type:

Link to Billy Crawford's Photos of the Ocean In View DDO Discovery (Type II - New DDO)

There are also weaker versions of doubled die obverses being found in the 2005 Westward Journey Nickel sets. They are much less impressive than the two types shown above and may turn out to be the 'Poor Mans DDO' of these new DDO discoveries. Billy has written an article that, if published, should sum up the various doubled die discoveries that have shown up in the new nickels. Since the mint went to the 'single squeeze' process for creating dies in the mid to late 1990's, the chances for a really striking doubled die (like the 1955 and 1972 cents) is pretty remote -- so DDOs like these, although minor in comparison, are likely to catch on and become significant to variety and error collectors. It does not hurt that they showed up in the new one-year-only nickels in the 'satin finish' issue, which had the lowest mintage of all 3 types (including proof).

So go check your nickel sets if you got them. You might get lucky and find something. I searched more nickel sets than I care to admit and did have some luck getting some examples of 3 or 4 different DDO types. I even got photos of one of my coins published - and that was pretty cool. I guess I've used up my 2 minutes of fame.

Sorry about the double-post. I'm not sure what happened. Oh - and I fixed the link for the OIV Type I

ecos · December 30, 2005 4:09AM

Very cool Russellhome. I wish I had some sets to look through.

Do you think this will have any impact on the popularity (or lack of popularity) of the "Hand shake" nickel DDO?

Russellhome · December 30, 2005 4:23AM

<< Very cool Russellhome. I wish I had some sets to look through.

Do you think this will have any impact on the popularity (or lack of popularity) of the "Hand shake" nickel DDO? >>

Perhaps it will. But more importantly, the 2004 handshake (or Peace) nickel now as a Cherry Picker's FS number and is recognized by NGC. NGC has now graded about 1400 of these. Since this was a regular business strike DDO, there are likely to be more of them than will eventually turn up in the 2005 varieties. But on the other hand, the 2004 DDOs are in general circulation and much harder to find. These 2005 varieties are, thus far, only found in Westward Journey Nickel Sets. If you search enough of sets, you will find some.

Now that I have a few of the 2005 DDOs, I'd like to pick up the 2004 DDO as well -- so what you are asking is true, at least for me. But the asking prices have been a little steep. I don't know that they are unpopular. I just don't think a market value on them has shaken out completely. Time will tell.

If I can get a good deal on one, I plan to get one. Or perhaps a trade for a 2005 OIV DDO will be a means to getting a 2004 DDO.

2manycoins2fewfunds · December 30, 2005 4:27AM

It may get a whole lot more interesting...................

I had sent Billy Crawford examples of what I thought were yet unreported variations of 2005 Bison and OIV DDOs. He has emailed me to say that on INITIAL exam there do seem to be 3 additional DDO varities!!!!!!

I had reviewed 300+ sets and felt there were 2-3 different DDOs in each the Bison and OIV and it looks like that may be confirmed!!

Betbigger · December 30, 2005 4:30AM

Russellhome, appreciate the detail. I have two questions.

1) Are both the Bison and Ocean View DDOs found in the nickel sets?

2) Are most in early release or in late release sets?

Thanks Again,

Betbigger

2manycoins2fewfunds · December 30, 2005 4:50AM

Excuse the pre-emptive reply but yes, they are both found in the 2005 Westward Journey sets. To date they haven't been reported in the the other mint products containing Satin Matte finish Bison/Ocean in View coins but that could change.

It appears the DDOs are scattered through series. Based purely on my experience with 200+ sets I'd say it averages one hit for every 7-10 sets.

Russellhome · December 30, 2005 5:11AM

<< Russellhome, appreciate the detail. I have two questions.

1) Are both the Bison and Ocean View DDOs found in the nickel sets?

2) Are most in early release or in late release sets?

Thanks Again,

Betbigger >>

All the known varieties of the 2005 P OIV and Bison DDOs have been found in nickel sets. They are the 'satin finish' type, which is only found it Mint Sets and these 6 Coin nickel sets. As far as I know, none have been found in mint sets yet. According to Billy, the mint may have used these dies for regular business strikes after they were done minting the Special Mint Set coins. If this is true, they may turn up in bags, rolls, and in circulation as well.

About your 2nd question: Based on what I've searched -- and what I know about a few other variety hunters have done -- here is my best guess answer...

I ordered 10 or 12 sets when they first came out in September. I found nothing.

The discoverer of the original Bison DDO received his in Mid October

I ordered a few more sets as Christmas presents - they got here just after Thanksgiving. I found One of the original Bison DDOs.

I then ordered a bunch more sets (3 different orders) that arrived in early December. I found several weak Bison DDOs and a few of the stronger OIV DDOs.

I know of another guy who got 20 sets on December 22. He found a few of the OIV DDOs and no Bison DDOs.

I just went through a lot of 20 I received just before Christmas. I found nothing.

So, in summary. Given my small sample and what others have told me, the hit rate has been fairly high (10% or so). But they do tend to come in groups. In other words, one order of 25 sets may have 5-10 examples of one type of DDO and nothing in the rest. Another order of 25 may have nothing at all. Some sets have been reported that have both the Bison and OIV DDOs. So -- it appears that the stonger Bison DDOs came early and the strong OIV DDOs came later. But who really knows. I do know that the mint was shipping out sets with DDOs in Mid-December, and possibly right up to the end of sales on December 25.

Russellhome · December 31, 2005 3:35AM

<< It may get a whole lot more interesting...................

I had sent Billy Crawford examples of what I thought were yet unreported variations of 2005 Bison and OIV DDOs. He has emailed me to say that on INITIAL exam there do seem to be 3 additional DDO varities!!!!!!

I had reviewed 300+ sets and felt there were 2-3 different DDOs in each the Bison and OIV and it looks like that may be confirmed!! >>

Billy Sent me the link to the pages he did for your new discoveries. Here they are...

2005-P 5c Bison Rev. CDDO-003 Web Page

2005-P 5c OIV Rev. CDDO-003 Web Page

2005-P 5c OIV Rev. CDDO-004 Web Page

The first two are not too bad -- but still not as strong of a DDO as the original Bison or OIV DDOs. The last one is really weak -- I may have come across a DDO bison or two that had about the same minimal amount of doubling. It looks to me that what ever happened to create the doubled dies in the first place kepted on doing it's thing (to a lesser degree each time) during the manufacturing of the dies. I'm not sure if these new finds help or hurt. I think the stronger ones may remain popular, and even the weaker ones will command a small premium. But it is going to be a trick for most just to figure out what version they have.

xbob · December 31, 2005 3:52AM

Nice finds. What kind of magnification is being used to ID these?

FullStepJeffs · December 31, 2005 3:58AM

Well, that answers where this came from.

Steve

Russellhome · December 31, 2005 4:16AM

<< Nice finds. What kind of magnification is being used to ID these? >>

Billy Crawford uses a film camera to get his close-up images. I don't know the specifics about what equipment he uses, but he does this for a living, so I imagine it is a high-end setup.

With the right light, I can make out the strong DDOs with a regular magnifing glass. The light reflects off of the doubled portions a little more intensely than on the same angle surfaces that are not doubled. I first used a plain childrens microscope to examine the sets. It worked pretty good. A few weeks ago, I bought an Intel Play QX3 computer microscope like this one (click here). It too is for children, but I heard that stamp and coin collectors used them as well. It does work pretty good and you can take snapshots of what you see. At the 60x setting, it does a great job of showing the doubling on these DDOs. And my kids like the microscope for looking at bugs and stuff, too. It was well worth the 30 bucks I paid for it on eBay.

Note: The Intelplay QX3 is obsolete and no longer available for retail sale. I got it on eBay and I had to download driver/software updates from Intel to get it to work on Window XP. There is a similar product (Digital Blue QX5 Computer Microscope) which I think is still a current retail product. But, I think it costs more than I paid, too.

xbob · December 31, 2005 9:42AM

Thanks for the info on the imaging. 60X is pretty close!

I look through rolls and change a lot for fun, but the most I've used is 10X.

What power loupe is needed when looking for this type of error. A 10X magnifier doesn't seem enough to capture such a tiny DDO. Or is it not possible without a QX3/5 or ther microscope device?

Russellhome · December 31, 2005 1:17PM

<< Thanks for the info on the imaging. 60X is pretty close!

I look through rolls and change a lot for fun, but the most I've used is 10X.

What power loupe is needed when looking for this type of error. A 10X magnifier doesn't seem enough to capture such a tiny DDO. Or is it not possible without a QX3/5 or ther microscope device? >>

The Intelplay QX3 has 10x, 60x, and 200x modes. I think the 10x would be good for quick searches -- but for some reason, it does not want to focus very well at 10x. At 60x, you cannot even fit the full 'GOD' on the nickel into the viewing image - so yes, you have to fish a little bit to find what you are looking for. I've used it searching cents, too - and it is really fast to flop a coin on it, search around a bit, and move on to the next.

About locating one of these DDOs with a 10x loop... it is possible (at least for the major ones) if you know what you are looking for. It has more to do with how the light reflects off of the doubled areas than actually seeing the doubling. For example...

This is a photo of an OIV DDO I'm selling on eBay. The light is coming in from 3 o'clock. See how the light in the lower loops of "US" in TRUST appears thicker than at the top of the U and the upper loop of the S? You can also see it at the bottom of the "E" in WE. If it were not the Doubled Die, the band of light would be thinner. Since the doubling on this variety is greatest in GOD, a light angle from 1 o'clock would also show a wide band of light in the lower loop of the GOD lettering. Using a loop and a lamp, I get the same effect. So I have been able to pick out the DDOs from the regular nickels fairly easily.

But as you know from this thread, there are several varieties with various levels of doubling. To actually identify what specific DDO variety you have, you will need more than 10x magnification. Plus, some show very little doubling at all and really can't be seen at all at 10x. I suspect this is true for a lot of variety coins (Doubled Dies, RPMs, Full Step Jeffersons, etc) -- a 10x loop might hint at a find, but more magnification is needed to identify it. Before I got the QX3, I was using a simple kids microscope I picked up at a yard sale for a few bucks -- it worked great in identifing my first Bison DDO find.

xbob · January 1, 2006 1:18PM

Thanks for the information Russellhome. I do see the indicators in your photo based on the lighting. My 10X isn't going to cut it if I want to do these kind of searches. I've looked through a lot of cents and found nothing.

To seriously look for DDO's and the like, it seems a microscope is a necessity (Coppercoins posted an excellent set-up). Maybe I'll get one someday... or stick to searching Quarters.

Russellhome · January 2, 2006 1:10AM

<< Thanks for the information Russellhome. I do see the indicators in your photo based on the lighting. My 10X isn't going to cut it if I want to do these kind of searches. I've looked through a lot of cents and found nothing.

To seriously look for DDO's and the like, it seems a microscope is a necessity (Coppercoins posted an excellent set-up). Maybe I'll get one someday... or stick to searching Quarters. >>

I saw that coppercoins post, too. It was good information -- and I'm glad he provided some sort of idea how many 'finds' are obtained from a batch of cents. Billy Crawford didn't tell me how, but he said he can go through as much as $100 in cents in a single day. Now that is dedication to your hobby (and if I tried it, it would earn me a divorce).

I too have looked through cents and found nothing -- but not too many since I got the computer microscope. I have a $50 bag of wheat cents that I've had since 1979 and it has only been searched for dates & mint marks -- perhaps on some of these cold winter days, I'll go through it again for RPMS and the like. But I think I'd better learn more about what to look for first. I only recently discovered sites like Coppercoins, varietynickels.com, etc -- which have nice photos to learn what to look for. Now, what I should do is train my 3 kids to look for things.

Searching nickel sets is slow, no matter how good of a system you have. It costs alot, too. So, after about 120 sets, I've stopped. Unlike circulated coins, I just can't take all these sets down to the bank and cash them in. It is going to take a little while to unload all of them -- hopefully they will remain popular, even after the 2006 nickels start rolling out.

MajorDuty · January 2, 2006 3:08AM

<< I ordered a few more sets as Christmas presents - they got here just after Thanksgiving. I found One of the original Bison DDOs. >>

Did that original Bison DDO end up going as a Christmas present as intended? :-)

EJB · January 2, 2006 3:27AM

......Well I guess I'll have to dig my sets out, Now that I know what to look for.......

Russellhome · January 2, 2006 3:38AM

At the time I found out about the Bison DDO, my wife had already gift wrapped several sets intended as gifts and had them ready to go (but not shipped yet). I have to confess, we did unwrap them and check them out for the Bison DDO (with no luck). But I found out about the OIV DDO after we set them out. So I emailed all who received one and told them what to look for. I have not heard back yet -- but I think the OIVs were shipped later than when I bought these -- so I doubt they will have any luck.

I will say this. The nickel sets as gifts were a real hit. I gave them to a younger cousins, nieces and nephews (and a few adults). Most had never seen a proof coin before, and having a set with the new nickels that had the proof side-by-side with the SMS UNC issue proved to be an interesting combination. Everyone who got one liked it and I was told they were passed around getting ooohs and ahaas by everyone present. It has also sparked an interest in coin collecting for at least 2 of my nephews -- as they have called me repeatedly to discuss the hobby (and neither one had ever called me before).

So seasoned collectors may have found the the nickel sets no more than novilty item/money makers for the mint. But young collectors (and non-collectors) think they are pretty neato.

DieVarieties · January 2, 2006 6:14AM

"Billy Crawford uses a film camera to get his close-up images. I don't know the specifics about what equipment he uses, but he does this for a living, so I imagine it is a high-end setup."

I use a Minolta Maxxum 430si RZ SLR with 400 film attached to a stereoscope.

Doubled Die Obverse in the 2005 P Ocean In View Nickels (two types)

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