Tale of two grading services--PCGS vs. NGC

TheNumish · December 28, 2005 12:13PM

Mailed two bulk orders to be graded. One to PCGS and one to NGC.

Here is how NGC handled the 122 Marine Corps Dollars on invoice 1901925
10/20 Mailed coins
10/27 NGC received coins and logged coins in
11/01 NGC mailed the coins back to me graded. Took them 4 days to grade coins and mail them back

Here is how PCGS is doing on invoice 3164530 for proof silver state quarters
10/20/2005 mailed coins registered mail
11/01 coins logged into system
12/15 received email coins were graded and that they need to be paid for grading before sending coins back
12/15 express mailed check for $2,697.55 for three invoices.
12/16 PCGS receives check 12:50 pm according to the USPS web site
12/27 coins still not mailed

I make my living with the coin business. I would have liked to offer my customers Marine Corps Dollars in PCGS and NGC holders but if I did I would still be waiting for my first batch of Marine Corps from PCGS. I just can't tie up my money waiting for them to grade simple coins. If PCGS doesn't think they are losing an incredible amount of business due to being slow they really need to have their heads examined. I'm a little guy but if they were just a little faster I'm certain I would have spent at least 20k more in grading fees with them in 2005. My hope is that in 2006 they can get their act together. I don't have much faith. If they are this slow right now imagine how much slower they are going to be when all of the 2006 gold and silver eagles hit them. Not to mention 2006 proof silver eagles and proof quarters.

Glavin · December 28, 2005 12:24PM

what kind of a bulk discount do you get per coin pcgs/ngc?

Cameonut · December 28, 2005 12:27PM

So NGC grades your bulk submissions without payment in advance?
And PCGS does not? Interesting.....

I am more interested in the grades you received from both services as you have a decent sample size.

chloebess · December 28, 2005 12:30PM

I have nothing to add, did not know how to subscribe without a message.

Am looking forward to seeing more on this thread.

TheNumish · December 28, 2005 12:49PM

NGC accepts a credit card for bulk submissions and PCGS doesn't. There have been times I forgot to put my credit card number on the NGC invoice and it didn't slow the submission down. NGC mailed the coins and I just paid the grading fees when I got the coins. NGC knows me well enough they probably would do it all the time.

On proof coins I get a higher percentage of proof-70 coins from NGC then PCGS. The NGC proof-70 coins sell for less then the PCGS coins. Overall the proof-69's are about the same.

TheNumish · December 28, 2005 12:54PM

Just like to say I really like PCGS. I like the way they grade coins and I like the holder. My customers love buying PCGS coins. I just wish they would grade the coins in a more timely manner. The profit margin has to be pretty good on this modern stuff. You'd think they would be jumping through hoops to get as much business as possible.

Wolf359 · December 28, 2005 12:58PM

I just wish they would grade the coins in a more timely manner.

Hey, I've got 3 open orders right now I'm dying to get back because some will be flipped out and sold. But I honestly think rather than blast
thru submissions like a speeding bullet, they actually take the time to get it right. The good comes with the bad...

Freak1c · December 28, 2005 1:00PM

Sounds like a case of demand not meeting supply. These are the growing pains of a small company not prepared to meet the needs of the mass, IMO.

Tom

Shamika · December 28, 2005 1:06PM

<< I am more interested in the grades you received from both services as you have a decent sample size. >>

I'd also love to see a breakdown.

Coxe · December 28, 2005 1:10PM

I sent a box of previously graded slabs for variety attribution each to PCGS and NGC on 11/22.

NGC logged their box into their system on 11/28 and completed the attribution the same day. I received a shipping notification in email on 12/02 and received them on 12/07. I sent them a second box that was completed just as fast.

PCGS logged their box in on 11/30. They have been residing in sealing limbo now for I think two weeks. I called today and they said I will probably get them the week after the FUN show. I was sort of counting on having them to take to the show and thought sending them through the 10 day attribution service (not guaranteed though) before Thanksgiving would not present a problem.

I like them both but this does seem like a long time.

CC2GO · December 28, 2005 1:21PM

I understand how timing can be important. However to me........
QUALITY IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN TIMELINESS!

On that note, I have to agree with wolf359....

<< I honestly think rather than blast
thru submissions like a speeding bullet, they actually take the time to get it right. >>

My reasoning on this is based on my recent experience with both companies. I purchased 2 identical
2005 MS69 Satin Finish coins graded by NGC on Ebay from 2 different sellers. Upon initial inspection,
they did not appear as high quality coins.

I immediately submitted both coins to PCGS for a "Crossover" and BOTH coins failed to cross at MS69.
Meanwhile, I also picked up a couple PCGS MS69 Satin Finish coins. They looked fantastic!!!
Using a loupe and inspecting the NGC coins further and making comparisons, I could see myself why they didn't cross at that grade. Along with some bad spots, the luster was low and there was no eye appeal whatsoever.

This is NOT to say that NGC grades poorly! I've seen some awesome coins in NGC holders that I believe
were graded appropriately. BUT....I'm not sure about their consistency.

Thus, in agreement with "The Numish"......

<< Just like to say I really like PCGS. I like the way they grade coins and I like the holder. My customers love buying PCGS coins. I just wish they would grade the coins in a more timely manner. >>

Please keep in mind that this has been my personal experience and preference! Allthough I get frustrated with turnaround
times, the wait is worth it for me. I take extreme pride in my personal collection! However, I DO follow the advice to
"buy the coin and not the holder!" Sometimes I'll find a coin in a different holder that I just gotta have!

dbldie55 · December 28, 2005 1:32PM

There are some funny comments on here. Just how long do you think it takes PCGS to actually grade a single coin? If you really think it is more time than NGC, then I have a nice beach to sell you in the middle of Nevada.

golddustin · December 28, 2005 1:38PM

The problem right now with PCGS is NOT in the grading of the coins, but rather the administrative functions that are involved in processing the orders. I don't really think either service spends a substantial amount of time in the actual grading of the coins - it's just that at PCGS, there are boxes of coins sitting in grading rooms and packaging rooms waiting to be "processed". I sent a bulk submission of 120 coins in that were rec'd & entered on 9/1/05 - after several email & phone calls, I finally got an invoice emailed to me (never got the actual grades emailed - only found them out via the invoice) on 12/8, the invoice indicated that the coins had been graded 11/11/05!!! That kind of service will definitely turn away customers.

UncleWiggly · December 28, 2005 1:49PM

Maybe the percentage of coins submitted to graders is just higher at PCGS. Maybe they just have more coins coming in than NGC does.

Jerry

BECOKA · December 28, 2005 2:24PM

<< So NGC grades your bulk submissions without payment in advance?
And PCGS does not? Interesting.....

PCGS grades before payment. They ship after payment.

ILikeDimes · December 28, 2005 3:06PM

<< Maybe the percentage of coins submitted to graders is just higher at PCGS. Maybe they just have more coins coming in than NGC does. >>

sounds like they need to hire more graders then......JMO

Coxe · December 28, 2005 3:29PM

I checked the status of my variety review order. Still no change. However, when I checked the individual coins in the tag verification, they changed. They still don't show the grades which were reset in the database when the order was processed. Those grades won;t change anyway since they were PCGS slabs for variety review only. The varieties now show. Nearly all of the attributions made it, as I was sure they had to. One I was unsure of, a 1927 VAM-2, did verify. At MS64, that is a very cool Peace dollar. Now to wait for the grades to repopulate and they can go into the registry sets. Still have to wait on the crossover VAMs........ No tag numbers until/unless they cross to check.

TwoSides2aCoin · December 28, 2005 3:44PM

I quit submitting months ago. Save your money. Sell raw coins ! Especially MODERN commemoratives.... just mark up the original packaging by 30% and sell it.

Why waste a dime putting it in a slab ? And besides NGC and PCGS don't care about you or the coin they are grading, they care about money/profit. It is a simple philosophy.......... Pay Up, Shut Up, Put Up !

There is no added value in slabbed modern coins unless they are MS70 , by the way. And we all know how rare those are.

So you can get NGC quick, but their grading sucks or
you can get PCGS someday, but their service sucks.

Instant Gratification: NGC
SERVICE : NGC
CUSTOMER's WANT: PCGS

Who's the boss ? Do the mark up of the original packaging and sell quick ! If your customers want slabbed coins, offer that as a service and let them pay and wait. Dang.... I love solving problems.

Coxe · December 28, 2005 3:51PM

TwoSides2aCoin, while I agree with most of what you said, The customer is going to go and buy elsewhere rather than choose a raw coin or wait for a slab service at leat 9 times in 10. I am not talking about competent grading collectors but most collectors. The fact is that if you have a coin of significant value and you sell it raw you are probably cheaing yourself out of $$$ these days as you dissociate a sizable fraction of potential customers in competing for the sale.

Oh, and we all know there are THREE sides to a coin.

TwoSides2aCoin · December 28, 2005 4:25PM

Coxe....if we go by the fine details in legends, devices, mottos, dates and such, to include rim/edge.......there are way more than three sides to a coin .

And while I agree with cheating one's self out of potential profit by not having that added value of a TPG, we are talking bulk submissions. This implies not a concern for having anything but inventory available for the public. It is not like a slab that is NEEDED on a NOW basis, unless of course this has to do with the FUN show and someone is upset that their inventory is not going to be available for said show. In this case, I would be upset, too, as 45 days is sufficient time for turnaround of a bulk grade of 100+ coins, I would think.

But my contention is this : Most modern commemoratives will not see a large increase in value by being in a slab. So there shouldn't be much concern with regard to bulk submission and the time frame for turnaround, unless turnaround time with inaccurate grading is acceptable.

NGC offers a good turnaround time with inconsistencies in grading practices, and PCGS offers an accurate, though tough grade with a ridiculously slow turnaround time. The author states the customers love PCGS holders, so why would PCGS lose his business ? because of turnaround times ? I don't buy that. If my customer wants PELLA windows, I don't try to sell him ALSIDE windows. It's the same with a slabbed coin. If a customer wants a MARINE commemorative in a PCGS SLAB MS69, he will wait rather than take the NGC slab.

I'll shut up ! I was just throwing some bones out for the dogs, anyway

( a bit of sarcasm, if you will )

monsterman · December 28, 2005 5:32PM

>>>>>>>>>>>So you can get NGC quick, but their grading sucks or
you can get PCGS someday, but their service sucks

mmmmmmmmm the fact is...for one thing ngc grades more coins than pcgs

now for your quote

in golf the lowest score wins

in baseball the highest wins

so could it be that ngc grading is right on the money and pcgs is tighter.....if that were the case then one would deduce ngc is great and that pcgs grading sucks

awe the knife cuts both ways....

the fact is ngc is more consistent.........is pcgs tuffer...sometimes..and sometimes not

the fact is coins are graded in whole numbers..i have seen any 66.75 yet ...have you...so one must conclude that if ngc is 1/4 point below pcgs then 3 out of 4 coins are indeed graded to pcgs standards

so tell me ole wise one........are you a pro......can you tell the difference between a 66.3 and a 66.8...........if you cant then your screwed...because the pros know...and when they see your sell box they are gonna pick you clean.......of all the 66.8 coins that is and leave you with the 66.3 ones...at least at ngc youd have a better chance of the coin slab saying 67...which it probabaly is in the first place...but pcgs doesnt want to make you all the money for grading it right without you sending it to them for muliple grading fees first

so tell me now..........who grading sucks

i often chuckle at this and at how so many people dont understand this market at all....but....the supply of coins is run ( for the most part ) the "trade"...the trade being upgraders...these people send in millions of dollars a year in fees..they are as good as or better than the graders themselves...they know excatly what a coin should grade........key word is should.........when it doesnt grade where they would make all the money they go accross the street where they will grade it right..........then they have to take less money but they made the hit.....but guess what ...if you believe what i said is plausible..all the top coins are now in ngc holders........then when pcgs loosens up they go back accross the street for regrading again

this goes on ...and on...and on....back and forth...both servies are feeding each other

the key for a collector is to know WHERE YOU COIN LIES ( AKA RANKED ) IN RELATION TO THE REST OF THE POP....if you have the best....or 2nd best...or 3rd best...or even a very nice coin for the grade.....couple that with time in the market you will do great

if you dont know where your coins rank in relation to others you wont do great

hope this helps

monsterman

Coxe · December 28, 2005 6:34PM

Twosides, I agree totally when it comes to moderns and feel it should also be the case for most of the common Morgans too. I wouldn't be in this crazy holding pattern on more challenging material if the pipes weren't clogged with (ugh!!!) PR69DCAM Sac dollars. Of course, I would also probably need to pay 30%-50% more in their absence since those modern bulk submissions help carry the load.

Monstavet · December 28, 2005 6:36PM

My thought on this:

Slamming PCGS on the PCGS forums has resulted in many an addition to the former PCGS forum member list. Bwahahahaahaha!

IrishMike · December 28, 2005 7:14PM

<< There are some funny comments on here. Just how long do you think it takes PCGS to actually grade a single coin? If you really think it is more time than NGC, then I have a nice beach to sell you in the middle of Nevada. >>

If you need a loupe to see spots on a modern coin graded 69 best have your eyes checked soon they are going bad.

RYK · December 28, 2005 10:25PM

sounds like they need to hire more graders then......JMO

I sent 6 coins in for True View photography service. They mailed the coins back to me three weeks after the photography was completed. The graders never saw the coins. It seems to me that they need more widget processors.

Oh, I agree with everything in monsterman's post.

mercurydimeguy · December 28, 2005 10:45PM

The delay at PCGS and/or perhaps others, so I hear, has nothing to do with "grading quality improvements" or "getting it right" or "shortage of graders". Although all grading companies could use more quality graders, the reality is thath the bottleneck is likely in the "operations". Getting the coins, unpackaging them, entering them in to the system, yada, yada, yada.

What I've learned about the coin business is that by and large (not all, but definitely the majority of) its leaders are good at coins but not so good at business processes. They are also VERY cheap, and think they can always figure it out all on their own -- e.g. egos that can fill a room. Even if they don't have (or hire) Executives skilled at operations, they should at least hire a consultant or two to help them create a scalable operating infrastructure of their manual and automated processes. Without a proper plan, and detailed execution, their operations are currently being ran as linear a serious of "exception processing".

Not beating up anyone or any one firm, but the above has just been my observation -- right or wrong.

razorface1027 · December 28, 2005 10:57PM

Slamming PCGS on the PCGS forums has resulted in many an addition to the former PCGS forum member list. Bwahahahaahaha

Slamming or constructive criticism? I mean let's face it, timeliness has never been protocol for PCGS. IMO.

Tom

BAJJERFAN · December 28, 2005 11:22PM

My reasoning on this is based on my recent experience with both companies. I purchased 2 identical
2005 MS69 Satin Finish coins graded by NGC on Ebay from 2 different sellers. Upon initial inspection,
they did not appear as high quality coins.

<<"I immediately submitted both coins to PCGS for a "Crossover" and BOTH coins failed to cross at MS69.
Meanwhile, I also picked up a couple PCGS MS69 Satin Finish coins. They looked fantastic!!!
Using a loupe and inspecting the NGC coins further and making comparisons, I could see myself why they didn't cross at that grade. Along with some bad spots, the luster was low and there was no eye appeal whatsoever.

This is NOT to say that NGC grades poorly! I've seen some awesome coins in NGC holders that I believe
were graded appropriately. BUT....I'm not sure about their consistency.">>

What it means is that people send their best coins to PCGS and their chit coins to NGC. The simple reason that there are more nice coins in PCGS plastic is that there are more nice coins submitted to PCGS.

TheNumish · December 28, 2005 11:55PM

Bajjerfan--I have a feeling MS-69 Satin Finish coins will never cross. Sort of like trying to cross an MS-70 coin. PCGS won't cross the coin without taking it out of the holder to look at. Can't take it out of the holder in case it won't cross. Sort of a catch-22. That said it is true NGC is not as tight on high grade moderns as PCGS. Which way is the right way. That's just an opinion.

Didn't start this thread to bash PCGS. A lot of my success is due to PCGS and I am grateful for it. I just can't understand why they can't be more efficient.

Deadhorse · December 29, 2005 12:07AM

<< What it means is that people send their best coins to PCGS and their chit coins to NGC. The simple reason that there are more nice coins in PCGS plastic is that there are more nice coins submitted to PCGS. >>

That may have been true at one time, probably was.

I've come to believe that tide is turning. I recently saw a batch of coins in the 12-25K range just back from NGC at a local dealer. To me, those are high end coins.

coinguy1 · December 29, 2005 12:20AM

<< What it means is that people send their best coins to PCGS and their chit coins to NGC. The simple reason that there are more nice coins in PCGS plastic is that there are more nice coins submitted to PCGS. >>

I disagree.

Even if you think NGC usually grades higher than PCGS does, that still doesn't mean many of the best coins wont be sent to NGC. On the contrary, it means that many of the best coins will be in NGC holders and some of them will be graded higher than PCGS would have graded them. Edited to add: That doesn't necessarily make the coins anything less.

BAJJERFAN · December 29, 2005 1:06AM

<<The simple reason that there are more nice coins in PCGS plastic is that there are more nice coins submitted to PCGS. >>

I guess one would have to believe that statement is true, but it seems to have been stated/implied here many times.

The nicer/nicest coins in NGC slabs also get submitted for crossover too.

It all depends of course on what one's perception/definition of nice is.

mercurydimeguy · December 29, 2005 2:19AM

I thought, based on the original post, this thread was about timeliness

monsterman · December 29, 2005 3:15AM

>>>><< What it means is that people send their best coins to PCGS and their chit coins to NGC. The simple reason that there are more nice coins in PCGS plastic is that there are more nice coins submitted to PCGS. >>

I disagree.

Even if you think NGC usually grades higher than PCGS does, that still doesn't mean many of the best coins wont be sent to NGC. On the contrary, it means that many of the best coins will be in NGC holders and some of them will be graded higher than PCGS would have graded them. Edited to add: That doesn't necessarily make the coins anything less.
>>>>

i totally agree with mark

now think with me here and dont take anything i say as absolute just in theory as pointing to particular non conforming item should be termed an anomaly

its my cartel theory....isnt it in the services best interest to not flood the market with higher graded coins unless the demand is there to take them away....if they did " flood" the market the bids would go down, values would go down, dealers inventory would go stagnent and be worth less and submissions would slow...severely...thus shooting themselves in the foot

thus you have 2 classes of coins...whats hot and whats not

hot coins are being absorbed so pcgs loosenes and grades them accordingly ...and they are taken off the market by the demand

as far as

whats not ...they are not being absorbed by the market place so pcgs tightens the supply thus holding the supply at present pops so as not to exacerbate the issue

so now you can fill in the blanks...if the series is hot they flow to pcgs for " all the money"..........if its not they go to ngc for the right grade they wont get at pcgs

thus you hear a lot from dealers saying buy this or that ...they are to cheap...and they are right....ms 65 20th century type with a great look are too cheap right now and a good place to collect.....i often buy " undervalued coins" while im searching for one for my collection.....many times the coin i needed took me 2 years to find and the price went from 4,000 to 6,000 in the meantime.......but a properly placed 4,000 investment many times comes back at 6,000 thus i got my coin and at the price it was 2 years ago

so in conclusion ...in theory its like a tide..while its high tide in one part of the globe its low tide in the other.....and the coins go back and forth

to me...the key is to know the game thus it all goes back to the same old montra

BUY THE COIN NOT THE SLAB.....and if you buy superior coins for the grade....and if you stay in the market long enough for those superior coins to reach their true grade

you will do very well both financially and fullfillment wise

hope this helps

monsterman

Barry · December 29, 2005 4:16AM

hot coins are being absorbed so pcgs loosenes and grades them accordingly ...and they are taken off the market by the demand

However, if they grade loose, they've taken that coin out of the crackout/resubmit cycle, so it doesn't seem to be in their best interests. It seems to me the business model of the reputable TPGs is to grade tight enough to enourage resubmissions.

Conder101 · December 29, 2005 5:25AM

<< The delay at PCGS and/or perhaps others, so I hear, has nothing to do with "grading quality improvements" or "getting it right" or "shortage of graders". Although all grading companies could use more quality graders, the reality is thath the bottleneck is likely in the "operations". Getting the coins, unpackaging them, entering them in to the system, yada, yada, yada >>

If this was/is the case then PCGS could solve (have solved) the problem very quickly. If the botleneck was the graders you have a problem. There are only X world class graders out there and to get more of them you either have to hire them away from your competitor or from their very luctritive private businesses. Neither is easy or in the long run effective. And trying to train and create new "world class" graders is probably not too effective either. (High washout rate plus a cetain percentage will wind up going to your competitor or into their own business. Then you are right back where you started only X is a little larger.)

On the other hand if Operations is the problem, it should be fairly easy to rapidly increase the operations staff since the qualification level isn't as high. A basic knowledge of coins and how to handle them plus some computer/typing skills. The talent pool with those skills is MUCH larger. Probably 90% or more of us on the forum would qualify. And we are just a small portion of the collector base)

monsterman · December 29, 2005 12:26PM

>>>>>>However, if they grade loose, they've taken that coin out of the crackout/resubmit cycle, so it doesn't seem to be in their best interests.>>>>

abolutley it makes sense...dont think so much inside the box...think outside the box.....when they loosen it creates wealth for the submitter.........there is billions of wealth in these grades........the key is to let them out slowly.........by loosening they create wealth for the dealer who inturn will use a % of that wealth they just got to submit more coins...its not that hard to understand

>>>>It seems to me the business model of the reputable TPGs is to grade tight enough to enourage resubmissions>>>>>

ok now you done it.........listen to yourself...............is a tpg really is an appraiser of the grade ...right.....so what your saying is when you want an appraisal on your house you want them to come over and do it 20 times at 300 a wack..............tell that to your wife and you`ll get commited!!!!!!!!!

>>>>>>>>It seems to me the business model of the reputable TPGs is to grade tight enough to enourage resubmissions>>>>>

please go see your college econ teacher and show him this quote by you and watch his head turn like a dog hearing a dog whistle.....as he stares at you like your on crack...........i`ll bet you cant explain this quote to him in 500 words

monsterman

Hobbyist · December 29, 2005 12:48PM

<< There are some funny comments on here. Just how long do you think it takes PCGS to actually grade a single coin? If you really think it is more time than NGC, then I have a nice beach to sell you in the middle of Nevada. >>

I am wondering if some people fail to realize that the time spent actually grading their coins is measured in seconds, not months.

claychaser · December 29, 2005 1:18PM

I sent my 1st submission to NGC using "early bird" 12 working day service - 5 coins. They received them on 11/28, and still no grades posted 22 working days later - I've been in "quality control" for almost 2 weeks. At least PCGS gaurantees their times for the higher level service.

I like the PCGS holder better too. For us non-dealers, the 6+ PCGS week economy route makes sense to me. PCGS seems to take longer to log in the order, but at least they post the grades.

I do think PCGS is tougher, especially on MS Morgans.

Myqqy · December 29, 2005 4:25PM

There are some funny comments on here. Just how long do you think it takes PCGS to actually grade a single coin? If you really think it is more time than NGC, then I have a nice beach to sell you in the middle of Nevada.

I also agree with everything monsterman stated previously....

Conder101 · December 30, 2005 12:47AM

<< >>>>>>However, if they grade loose, they've taken that coin out of the crackout/resubmit cycle, so it doesn't seem to be in their best interests.>>>>

abolutley it makes sense...dont think so much inside the box...think outside the box.....when they loosen it creates wealth for the submitter.........there is billions of wealth in these grades........the key is to let them out slowly.........by loosening they create wealth for the dealer who inturn will use a % of that wealth they just got to submit more coins...its not that hard to understand >>

Sounds like an endorsement for the Star Grading Service business model.

Tale of two grading services--PCGS vs. NGC

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