i am willing to learn and will be the first to admit i make mistakes.
There are literally tens of thousands of coins to look at, are you telling me you look at them all? Do you actively search for PCI coins on ebay or what not?
It is not about being snobby, but making the best use of my time. It is about trust and buying sight unseen.
Maybe I am being a bit snobbish, but I just do not care to look through 100 NGC graded half eagles that are overgraded and dealers looking to sell them at PCGS prices. It just turns me off.
Now to level the playing field these two auction are by the same person. And they both close in about three hours. Wonder which coin will close for the most money. BTW this is not a plug for the members auctions, but I think most will reconogize who it is.
i am willing to learn and will be the first to admit i make mistakes.
There are literally tens of thousands of coins to look at, are you telling me you look at them all? Do you actively search for PCI coins on ebay or what not?
It is not about being snobby, but making the best use of my time. It is about trust and buying sight unseen.
Maybe I am being a bit snobbish, but I just do not care to look through 100 NGC graded half eagles that are overgraded and dealers looking to sell them at PCGS prices. It just turns me off.
i did not mean to get underneath your skin. >>
Not too worry. I do get a bit weary of the constant hammering about PCGS though. The vast majority of my slabbed coins are in PCGS holders. That has begun to change in the last year though. Yes, sadly I have seen 3-4 point swings on MS coins. Recently I submitted a few crossovers both ways, just to verify what I believe I have seen happening in the last 12 months. Along with the crossovers, I submitted a couple of crackouts to the same company. I'll see what PCGS does with a coin they called PR67 18 months ago. Same with NGC. There is no question that PCGS slabs are the preferred type just as this forum is the best around. Still, NGC coins are gaining in popularity and for many series, they are equally valued by quite a few people.
As far as searches. Yes, I do search green PCI slabs and NGC for that matter. I've made some nice scores on FBL Frankies from both as well as some nice Morgans that were under priced, though graded properly. It takes some looking, but it's quite satisfying to find a 51 S NGC Frankie in 66, pay AU money and get it back in a 65FBL holder from PCGS. Lately, you can't do that anymore with PCGS, though you still can with NGC. Standards appear to have changed, and i'm not talking about NGC getting easier. In fact, even they are getting tougher on Morgans in my experience. No, I don't look at everything either, not enough time. But I do with particular series. FB Mercury dimes are another series where some real steals can be had from lesser slabs.
I just don't believe large groups of dealers decided at the same time to stop submitting to PCGS in bulk and go to NGC simply because they want overgraded coins. I talked to many about this and they really want properly graded coins in a reasonable time frame. I'm just passing on what I've been told.
I don't collect older gold coins so I can't speak to grading on those series. Those I own I bought a while ago as they were nice coins for the price, but I don't seek them out for specific sets.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Now to level the playing field these two auction are by the same person. And they both close in about three hours. Wonder which coin will close for the most money. BTW this is not a plug for the members auctions, but I think most will reconogize who it is. >>
I'd be interested to hear from Russ why they are in different slabs. For that matter, why he didn't crack out the NGC. Picture wise, I like the NGC a bit better.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
I love threads like this- it's always enjoyable to see who's drinking more koolaid than others..... It's easy for me to understand why many dealers tire of sending coins to pcgs for grading, if the wait times are excessive and the grading seems unrealistically tight. I think that intentionally undergrading is almost as bad as overgrading- just give me consistent fair grading!! I also enjoy peoples' experience with the series that they specialize in. I know that from looking at tons of slabbed morgans, I really don't see superior grading performance from pcgs vs ngc or anacs.....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>I talked to many about this and they really want properly graded coins in a reasonable time frame >>
I seriously doubt it. I think that most dealers (and collectors too, for that matter) want their coins' grades maxed out, and the time element involved takes a big back seat to the grade achieved.
<< <i>I talked to many about this and they really want properly graded coins in a reasonable time frame >>
I seriously doubt it. I think that most dealers (and collectors too, for that matter) want their coins' grades maxed out, and the time element involved takes a big back seat to the grade achieved. >>
If this were true, everyone would send their coins to a third tier grading service for the higher grade.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I talked to many about this and they really want properly graded coins in a reasonable time frame >>
I seriously doubt it. I think that most dealers (and collectors too, for that matter) want their coins' grades maxed out, and the time element involved takes a big back seat to the grade achieved. >>
I dunno Mark, maybe I just talk to people with more integrity than the average dealer. Present company excluded, of course.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Many of us buy coins and not holders but there are a lot morre out there who rely heavily on the tags. The funny thing about that camp is that it is split (where, who knows?) between PCGS bias and absolutely no regard for the call letters on the slab (eBay wannabes). The former I believe exert price pressure that pushes PCGS above the others for a lot of the market. The latter group are open trashcans for promotors, for the most part.
Whether or not PCGS is or was the best, most consistent, or most conservative service (or had the best guaranty) is irrelevant. The perception of such, valid or not, as it relates to market pricing necessarily has a powerful effect. The PQ coins in other services' slabs WILL be crossed to PCGS. It would be fiscally irresponsible not to at least try. I used to get lots of really great ANACS slabs ten or fifteen years ago. Most of them dried up. The perception from what you'll see in auctions and the bourses is that ANACS overgrades and is not very consistent. NGC crosses to PCGS may have the same effect in time.
So, to answer the initial question, buy the coin in whatever holder or no holder, but get it in a PCGS slab before you sell it. PCGS holders are nearly the only ones worth having when you are selling your coins. If you had the choice, it should be that all of yours are PCGS.
<< <i>I talked to many about this and they really want properly graded coins in a reasonable time frame >>
I seriously doubt it. I think that most dealers (and collectors too, for that matter) want their coins' grades maxed out, and the time element involved takes a big back seat to the grade achieved. >>
Mark you are very honest, and polite at the same time. A rare combination.
mintluster---What do you mean by "top dog"? From what I've seen in dealer's price lists, the number of NGC coins out number the PCGS coins. Does anyone know the number of coins slabbed each month by the major grading services?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>YES. PCGS is top dog. They always have been and always will be.
More people choose them by far than anyone else.
NGC has to get the backing of the ANA and the PNG and they are still a distant second, so what does that tell you?
If you want to maximize the profit on your coins when/if you ever sell them, or trade them, they should be in a PCGS holder, plain and simple. >>
Please provide the numbers that back up your statement that more folks prefer coins in PCGS slabs. My understanding is that they both slab about the same number of coins year in and year out. Also please tell me how you know you can as a collector maximize your profits. Take Lindedads examaple of the 64 Kenndy, one sold for $200, the other $900 (approximate numbers). Which coin has the most upside potential for your investment? To make 40% on $200 you would have to sell it for $280 to make 40% on the other one you would need to sell it for $1260. Which do you think is more likely to happen?
Grading is an opinion, what happens to your investment if the NGC crosses, what happens if the market perception of the grading companies switches? Its happened before. Way too many things out of the control of a colllector to make such a blanket statement in my opinion. The folks who populate this board are in the minority of collectors, most of them whom I interact on a monthly basis are at shows to collect coins and care very little what slab its in, if fact raw coins outsell slabbed ones by many mulitiples.
..... it appears we all still have a free society and we can drive something down the road besides a YUGO™, eh ? I'll take the Caddy you take the Lexus. On second thought , I'll take the HUMMER ! The one with no bells and whistles cuz I just need it for LOOKS... they have no practical use on the streets anyway, except for a SHOW !
<< <i>YES. PCGS is top dog. They always have been and always will be.
More people choose them by far than anyone else.
NGC has to get the backing of the ANA and the PNG and they are still a distant second, so what does that tell you?
If you want to maximize the profit on your coins when/if you ever sell them, or trade them, they should be in a PCGS holder, plain and simple. >>
This is true because idiots like this are in the hobby. They would not even buy a coin in a NGC holder, so you get it at a discount. You cross it (I am currently at a 100% cross rate), and they pay you double the money for the SAME coin. You double your money and they think they are brilliant.
As for being a distant second, that certainly would not be the case for submission numbers.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
This is anecdotal information, but here goes anyway...........I cracked out 3 NGC Lincolns, 2 in MS 66 and 1 in MS65 (1 of the 66's was SMS). PCGS graded 2 as MS66 and 1 as MS67..........I cracked them out because someone convinced me that the graders might be more objective that way.
I now have 8 coins at PCGS (60 days) that are in other TPG's, all 66 or better and 3 with the * designation..........can't wait to see how these come in (if ever!).
Over the past few months I have been satisfied with PCGS grading.............I send my coins in because I want them in the same holder, not for sales but for convenience and looks. I keep most of the coins I buy. If they get down-graded or body-bagged (only happens with PCI with me) I still keep them as long as they fit my criteria.
Just one guy's experience..............and you can see I am not afraid to buy other slabs.
Basically I still stand by my 2005 comments. Only today I would add that I had been surprised by the additional lower liquidity of NGC coins (even stickered ones) in this down market. If there was a chance to go back to 2005 and do it over again, I would only buy coins in PCGS holders or those that would should easily get into PCGS holders. The proof is in the pudding. NGC standards in many areas such as bust halves (and bust coins in general) just fell short of PCGS. One cannot grade twice as many bust halves in MS65 or 50% more MS65 $10 Indians for example and expect to continue to get almost the same money as PCGS. While it held up pretty well in a strong market, it was clearly exposed over the past 9 months.
I absolutly hate to state this here, but facts are facts. I cannot sell my NGC moderns ( 1934-1958 ) Lincolns in the NGC holders......they languish and take up valuable real estate in the 4 allstate set-up at shows. I have resorted to putting out the silver boxes full of white slabbers with "SALE" in big letters.
PCGS 66-RD's are still a steady seller. This is just common Lincoln bling, folks, I cannot imagine what would happen with true nice stuff or better coins.........ANACS? On occasion they will sell, but at a discount. ( Any i feel will cross, i cross) . ICG ?? forget it. I cannot sell a 66 RD in any holder but a PCGS.
Semikeys and rare dates/grades are easy in any holder. Common date moderns.....fahget 'about'it
Thanks Jack. It's nice to get an objective opinion with real-life proof. I'm tired of people accusing us of just drinking the koolaid. As stated, this economy has exposed the marketability of non-PCGS coins.
some people's stupidity is exceeded only by their stupidity. any idiot at any show can see that coins in either ngc or pcgs holders sell about as easily as each other. could it just might be that the SELLER is the problem? not the pla$tic???
either way, any coin looks alot better once it is cracked out. i collect coins, not pla$tic.
Back in the mid to late 1990's some dealers in my local area sold NCG and ANACS coins at a decent discount compared to PCGS coins. It was a cherrypickers dream.
<< <i>some people's stupidity is exceeded only by their stupidity. any idiot at any show can see that coins in either ngc or pcgs holders sell about as easily as each other. could it just might be that the SELLER is the problem? not the pla$tic???
either way, any coin looks alot better once it is cracked out. i collect coins, not pla$tic.
some people's stupidity is exceeded only by their stupidity. any idiot at any show can see that coins in either ngc or pcgs holders sell about as easily as each other. could it just might be that the SELLER is the problem? not the pla$tic???
The only Idiot I see here is the one who provided the above "analysis." It's amazing what someone can come up with when they have zero market experience and believes that all TPG's grade on the exact same scale for all series. Incredible!
I have bought many NGC coins because they were coins I could not get any other way and 90% of them when crossing downgrade at least one point if not two or three. This may be why even with the sticker they sell at a discount.
The above seems to hold based on many auction photos as well. It just seems to be a different grading scale, at least for half eagles.
I have bought many NGC coins because they were coins I could not get any other way and 90% of them when crossing downgrade at least one point if not two or three. This may be why even with the sticker they sell at a discount. I had the same experience with southern gold, and it has been well-documented by me on this forum. Your results may vary.
Heck there are great coins in both NGC and PCGS holders, as well as dogs. You have to watch a few major auctions to really get a feel for what sells, and what level they sell at. There is spirited bidding sometimes for an NGC coin, and sometimes a PCGS coin will go unsold with no interest. Sometimes it's just the opposite, to generalize and think that there are no good coins in NGC holders is like wearing blinders because you may miss a really nice piece just because of your prejudice against NGC coins. However, I have to agree that PCGS coins are perceived as being superior on the whole to NGC coins by many people, and thus may be more marketable becuse of it. Interesting how CAC is changing the perception on non-CAC'd coins of both persuasions in auctions, how long this will last ultimately remains to be seen. On the whole, they seem to be bringing stronger prices. And yet some go unsold even with the CAC sticker, saw a few in Bowers auction last night where a CAC'd PCGS coin went unsold. Bottom line to all my rambling here is you have to judge each coin on it's own merits, regardless of the holder, and in reality I think many collectors don't take the time or have the ability to do that.
<< <i>Just FYI....most of the coins in PCI holders that I have sent in for Re-Grade to PCGS have crossed over. There is a wise bit of advice thrown out here ALL the time.... "buy the coin, not the plastic". >>
An NGC coin worth owning, and undergraded by any standards:
NGC PR65BN CAMEO The BN CAMEO designation isn't even available through PCGS, so if you bought only PCGS coins, you certainly wouldn't get correct attribution. Has that "depending on the angle" look:
the "slabbing game" that you point out in your initial thread is far larger than I think you realize. While PCGS has it's niche with US coins, and many think and can prove that PCGS coins garner more money at auction when compared to NGC, that is pretty much where it stops.
What many don't realize is just how much of a monopoly NGC has in nearly everything else. NGC has certified 100% of 7-figure world coins, and over 90% of 6-figure world coins. In fact, one of the only world coin collections that PCGS had to it's credit, has nearly all been crossed to NGC (The fabulous and high dollar Terner gold coins). It has even gotten to the point that one rarely sees a PCGS world coin over $10k, and their full court marketing press to overseas coin markets seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Although I do in fact judge a coin on it's merits, I won't own a $10k+ coin in PCGS plastic, it just doesn't have anywhere near the market acceptablity as it's NGC brethern. My five figure world coins are all NGC for a reason, as I need to know my heirs can get top dollar should something, well you know........
The "game" is much larger and more complex than many know.
<< <i>some people's stupidity is exceeded only by their stupidity. any idiot at any show can see that coins in either ngc or pcgs holders sell about as easily as each other. could it just might be that the SELLER is the problem? not the pla$tic???
The only Idiot I see here is the one who provided the above "analysis." It's amazing what someone can come up with when they have zero market experience and believes that all TPG's grade on the exact same scale for all series. Incredible!
roadrunner >>
you are truly not that stupid. i just know it.
any idiot knows that the MARGIN is what matters, not what pla$tic something is in. so if your gonna claim that XXX sells for less then YYY, then you would also PAY LESS for XXX.
it's pretty simple, i bet you can understand it if you try. then you will see that my previous statement was correct
<< <i>I don't have much of a stake in slabbed coins anymore. My observation of the marketplace indicates that PCGS is now the clear winner in the slabbing game. If I were to go back into US coins I suspect I would want PCGS only. Coins in other holders would have to be discounted EVEN IF THE COINS WERE PROPERLY GRADED.
What are your current feelings? >>
All things being equal, PCGS is the clear winner for resale. NGC coins sell well also, especially if the coin inside is choice and has eye appeal, but PCGS holdered coins seem to garner an extra premium just for the name on the holder.
I still buy NGC graded coins at a premium, as long as the coin inside is worth it.
Tyler
Oh, here is my newest NGC coin.
and here is Megan Fox. I think she has a big crush on me.
<< <i> some people's stupidity is exceeded only by their stupidity. any idiot at any show can see that coins in either ngc or pcgs holders sell about as easily as each other. could it just might be that the SELLER is the problem? not the pla$tic??? you are truly not that stupid. i just know it.........
any idiot knows that the MARGIN is what matters, not what pla$tic something is in. so if your gonna claim that XXX sells for less then YYY, then you would also PAY LESS for XXX.
it's pretty simple, i bet you can understand it if you try. then you will see that my previous statement was correct
K S >>
A few years back, I crossed a PCI graded coin from PCI to PCGS. I knew the PCI coin graded MS-65 was way overgraded. The seller insisted the coin was an AU-50. Most prospective buyers pegged it as EF-40/45 and did not buy the coin. I knew better; I crossed it to PCGS VG-10 but see below.
No, I don't think the excessive difference between PCGS VG-10 and PCI MS-65 is an problem caused only by the seller if they didn't price it properly at the VG-10 level. The seller was given the opportunity to overgrade the coin while having the protection of looking like the "good guy" because he was grading it 15 points below the assigned grade. I had to shame the seller into warning him that I would report him to PNG (at the time) to have him come down from his EF-40/45 price to the VG-10 price as he stated that his AU-50 price was indeed based on being an AU-50 grade as I had to keep asking him how he determined his price.
Having different grading services grade inconsistently is an unethical seller's dream to overcharge the less experienced buyer. But it is also a weak grading seller that also tends to overcharge for such slab. Too many buyers have been so badly burned that I see them literally throw away NGC slabbed coins at those gold and silver buyer places as they were so disgusted on how the sellers overcharged them at full retail prices as if they were graded on the PCGS tight grading standards.
But it is the "seller" that is the problem, you say?" Indeed, the seller is PART of the problem, which was initiated by the TPG "plastic" that was improperly graded to begin with and thus is the source of the problem.
I can clearly see that your statement is incomplete and is incorrect as a result.
If I were to have an error coin graded is one service preferable over another. I have several high end off-centers, brockages and clips that I'm thinking I should get into holders...
<< <i>A few years back, I crossed a PCI graded coin from PCI to PCGS. I knew the PCI coin graded MS-65 was way overgraded. The seller insisted the coin was an AU-50. Most prospective buyers pegged it as EF-40/45 and did not buy the coin. I knew better; I crossed it to PCGS VG-10 but see below. >>
<< <i>A few years back, I crossed a PCI graded coin from PCI to PCGS. I knew the PCI coin graded MS-65 was way overgraded. The seller insisted the coin was an AU-50. Most prospective buyers pegged it as EF-40/45 and did not buy the coin. I knew better; I crossed it to PCGS VG-10 but see below. >>
If I were to have an error coin graded is one service preferable over another. I have several high end off-centers, brockages and clips that I'm thinking I should get into holders...
Any thoughts are appreciated...
Unlike with some other series, the error market doesn't seem to award a premium to PCGS. So I'd suggest making your decision based on the cost of certification. In other words, you should send your errors to NGC.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Comments
i am willing to learn and will be the first to admit i make mistakes.
There are literally tens of thousands of coins to look at, are you
telling me you look at them all? Do you actively search for PCI
coins on ebay or what not?
It is not about being snobby, but making the best use of my time.
It is about trust and buying sight unseen.
Maybe I am being a bit snobbish, but I just do not care to look through 100 NGC graded half eagles that are overgraded and
dealers looking to sell them at PCGS prices. It just turns me off.
i did not mean to get underneath your skin.
NGC Coin
PCGS Coin.
Now to level the playing field these two auction are by the same person.
And they both close in about three hours.
Wonder which coin will close for the most money.
BTW this is not a plug for the members auctions, but I think most will reconogize who it is.
<< <i>deadhorse,
i am willing to learn and will be the first to admit i make mistakes.
There are literally tens of thousands of coins to look at, are you
telling me you look at them all? Do you actively search for PCI
coins on ebay or what not?
It is not about being snobby, but making the best use of my time.
It is about trust and buying sight unseen.
Maybe I am being a bit snobbish, but I just do not care to look through 100 NGC graded half eagles that are overgraded and
dealers looking to sell them at PCGS prices. It just turns me off.
i did not mean to get underneath your skin. >>
Not too worry. I do get a bit weary of the constant hammering about PCGS though. The vast majority of my slabbed coins are in PCGS holders. That has begun to change in the last year though. Yes, sadly I have seen 3-4 point swings on MS coins. Recently I submitted a few crossovers both ways, just to verify what I believe I have seen happening in the last 12 months. Along with the crossovers, I submitted a couple of crackouts to the same company. I'll see what PCGS does with a coin they called PR67 18 months ago. Same with NGC. There is no question that PCGS slabs are the preferred type just as this forum is the best around. Still, NGC coins are gaining in popularity and for many series, they are equally valued by quite a few people.
As far as searches. Yes, I do search green PCI slabs and NGC for that matter. I've made some nice scores on FBL Frankies from both as well as some nice Morgans that were under priced, though graded properly. It takes some looking, but it's quite satisfying to find a 51 S NGC Frankie in 66, pay AU money and get it back in a 65FBL holder from PCGS. Lately, you can't do that anymore with PCGS, though you still can with NGC. Standards appear to have changed, and i'm not talking about NGC getting easier. In fact, even they are getting tougher on Morgans in my experience. No, I don't look at everything either, not enough time. But I do with particular series. FB Mercury dimes are another series where some real steals can be had from lesser slabs.
I just don't believe large groups of dealers decided at the same time to stop submitting to PCGS in bulk and go to NGC simply because they want overgraded coins. I talked to many about this and they really want properly graded coins in a reasonable time frame. I'm just passing on what I've been told.
I don't collect older gold coins so I can't speak to grading on those series. Those I own I bought a while ago as they were nice coins for the price, but I don't seek them out for specific sets.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Hey russ no slammin- but dayum- what a difference a slab makes!!
<< <i>Well we can try a test. I noticed that the same grade coin a PR68CAM 1964 Half Dollar was available in NGC and PCGS on eBay.
NGC Coin
PCGS Coin.
Now to level the playing field these two auction are by the same person.
And they both close in about three hours.
Wonder which coin will close for the most money.
BTW this is not a plug for the members auctions, but I think most will reconogize who it is. >>
I'd be interested to hear from Russ why they are in different slabs. For that matter, why he didn't crack out the NGC. Picture wise, I like the NGC a bit better.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
It's easy for me to understand why many dealers tire of sending coins to pcgs for grading, if the wait times are excessive and the grading seems unrealistically tight. I think that intentionally undergrading is almost as bad as overgrading- just give me consistent fair grading!!
I also enjoy peoples' experience with the series that they specialize in. I know that from looking at tons of slabbed morgans, I really don't see superior grading performance from pcgs vs ngc or anacs.....
<< <i>I talked to many about this and they really want properly graded coins in a reasonable time frame >>
I seriously doubt it. I think that most dealers (and collectors too, for that matter) want their coins' grades maxed out, and the time element involved takes a big back seat to the grade achieved.
<< <i>
<< <i>I talked to many about this and they really want properly graded coins in a reasonable time frame >>
I seriously doubt it. I think that most dealers (and collectors too, for that matter) want their coins' grades maxed out, and the time element involved takes a big back seat to the grade achieved. >>
If this were true, everyone would send their coins to a third tier grading service for the higher grade.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>I talked to many about this and they really want properly graded coins in a reasonable time frame >>
I seriously doubt it. I think that most dealers (and collectors too, for that matter) want their coins' grades maxed out, and the time element involved takes a big back seat to the grade achieved. >>
I dunno Mark, maybe I just talk to people with more integrity than the average dealer. Present company excluded, of course.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Whether or not PCGS is or was the best, most consistent, or most conservative service (or had the best guaranty) is irrelevant. The perception of such, valid or not, as it relates to market pricing necessarily has a powerful effect. The PQ coins in other services' slabs WILL be crossed to PCGS. It would be fiscally irresponsible not to at least try. I used to get lots of really great ANACS slabs ten or fifteen years ago. Most of them dried up. The perception from what you'll see in auctions and the bourses is that ANACS overgrades and is not very consistent. NGC crosses to PCGS may have the same effect in time.
So, to answer the initial question, buy the coin in whatever holder or no holder, but get it in a PCGS slab before you sell it. PCGS holders are nearly the only ones worth having when you are selling your coins. If you had the choice, it should be that all of yours are PCGS.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>
<< <i>I talked to many about this and they really want properly graded coins in a reasonable time frame >>
I seriously doubt it. I think that most dealers (and collectors too, for that matter) want their coins' grades maxed out, and the time element involved takes a big back seat to the grade achieved. >>
Mark you are very honest, and polite at the same time. A rare combination.
More people choose them by far than anyone else.
NGC has to get the backing of the ANA and the PNG and they are still a distant second, so what does that tell you?
If you want to maximize the profit on your coins when/if you ever sell them, or trade them, they should be in a PCGS holder, plain and simple.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Consistancy is also a factor for me, I like all my VAM coins to be in ANACS holder............
Herb
<< <i>YES. PCGS is top dog. They always have been and always will be.
More people choose them by far than anyone else.
NGC has to get the backing of the ANA and the PNG and they are still a distant second, so what does that tell you?
If you want to maximize the profit on your coins when/if you ever sell them, or trade them, they should be in a PCGS holder, plain and simple. >>
Please provide the numbers that back up your statement that more folks prefer coins in PCGS slabs. My understanding is that they both slab about the same number of coins year in and year out. Also please tell me how you know you can as a collector maximize your profits. Take Lindedads examaple of the 64 Kenndy, one sold for $200, the other $900 (approximate numbers). Which coin has the most upside potential for your investment? To make 40% on $200 you would have to sell it for $280 to make 40% on the other one you would need to sell it for $1260. Which do you think is more likely to happen?
Grading is an opinion, what happens to your investment if the NGC crosses, what happens if the market perception of the grading companies switches? Its happened before. Way too many things out of the control of a colllector to make such a blanket statement in my opinion. The folks who populate this board are in the minority of collectors, most of them whom I interact on a monthly basis are at shows to collect coins and care very little what slab its in, if fact raw coins outsell slabbed ones by many mulitiples.
Collector
Posts: 1764
Joined: Oct 2003
Thursday December 15, 2005 3:31 AM
If you want to maximize the profit on your coins when/if you ever sell them, or trade them, they should be in a PCGS holder, plain and simple.
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as yes now i see it............. profit maximization
this IS THE main thing about these boards
and with greed comes a clouding of ethics and knowledge and responsibility
Me too Mike.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
good post 291fifth....
..... it appears we all still have a free society and we can drive something down the road besides a YUGO™, eh ?
I'll take the Caddy you take the Lexus. On second thought , I'll take the HUMMER ! The one with no bells and whistles cuz I just need it for LOOKS... they have no practical use on the streets anyway, except for a SHOW !
who spiked the Kool-Aid, anyway ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>YES. PCGS is top dog. They always have been and always will be.
More people choose them by far than anyone else.
NGC has to get the backing of the ANA and the PNG and they are still a distant second, so what does that tell you?
If you want to maximize the profit on your coins when/if you ever sell them, or trade them, they should be in a PCGS holder, plain and simple. >>
This is true because idiots like this are in the hobby. They would not even buy a coin in a NGC holder, so you get it at a discount. You cross it (I am currently at a 100% cross rate), and they pay you double the money for the SAME coin. You double your money and they think they are brilliant.
As for being a distant second, that certainly would not be the case for submission numbers.
I now have 8 coins at PCGS (60 days) that are in other TPG's, all 66 or better and 3 with the * designation..........can't wait to see how these come in (if ever!).
Over the past few months I have been satisfied with PCGS grading.............I send my coins in because I want them in the same holder, not for sales but for convenience and looks. I keep most of the coins I buy. If they get down-graded or body-bagged (only happens with PCI with me) I still keep them as long as they fit my criteria.
Just one guy's experience..............and you can see I am not afraid to buy other slabs.
For me PCGS has worked well for many years.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
roadrunner
PCGS 66-RD's are still a steady seller. This is just common Lincoln bling, folks, I cannot imagine what would happen with true nice stuff or better coins.........ANACS? On occasion they will sell, but at a discount. ( Any i feel will cross, i cross) . ICG ?? forget it. I cannot sell a 66 RD in any holder but a PCGS.
Semikeys and rare dates/grades are easy in any holder. Common date moderns.....fahget 'about'it
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
either way, any coin looks alot better once it is cracked out. i collect coins, not pla$tic.
K S
<< <i>some people's stupidity is exceeded only by their stupidity. any idiot at any show can see that coins in either ngc or pcgs holders sell about as easily as each other. could it just might be that the SELLER is the problem? not the pla$tic???
either way, any coin looks alot better once it is cracked out. i collect coins, not pla$tic.
K S >>
Glad to see your views haven't changed
Sure...but once you have the coin...if you're going to sell...
....buy PCGS plastic!
The only Idiot I see here is the one who provided the above "analysis." It's amazing what someone can come up with when they have zero market experience and believes that all TPG's grade on the exact same scale for all series. Incredible!
roadrunner
I have bought many NGC coins because they were coins I could not get any other way and 90% of them when crossing downgrade at least one point if not two or three. This may be why even with the sticker they sell at a discount.
The above seems to hold based on many auction photos as well. It just seems to be a different grading scale, at least for half eagles.
I had the same experience with southern gold, and it has been well-documented by me on this forum. Your results may vary.
If you have any doubt, revisit this thread and this one.
john
An experienced numismatist does not need to see any more detail to understand what is going on here.
63. Yeah, right. Laughable. Not with that hit on the cheek.
<< <i>Just FYI....most of the coins in PCI holders that I have sent in for Re-Grade to PCGS have crossed over. There is a wise bit of advice thrown out here ALL the time.... "buy the coin, not the plastic". >>
NGC PR65BN CAMEO The BN CAMEO designation isn't even available through PCGS, so if you bought only PCGS coins, you certainly wouldn't get correct attribution.
Has that "depending on the angle" look:
Empty Nest Collection
What many don't realize is just how much of a monopoly NGC has in nearly everything else. NGC has certified 100% of 7-figure world coins, and over 90% of 6-figure world coins. In fact, one of the only world coin collections that PCGS had to it's credit, has nearly all been crossed to NGC (The fabulous and high dollar Terner gold coins). It has even gotten to the point that one rarely sees a PCGS world coin over $10k, and their full court marketing press to overseas coin markets seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Although I do in fact judge a coin on it's merits, I won't own a $10k+ coin in PCGS plastic, it just doesn't have anywhere near the market acceptablity as it's NGC brethern. My five figure world coins are all NGC for a reason, as I need to know my heirs can get top dollar should something, well you know........
The "game" is much larger and more complex than many know.
<< <i>some people's stupidity is exceeded only by their stupidity. any idiot at any show can see that coins in either ngc or pcgs holders sell about as easily as each other. could it just might be that the SELLER is the problem? not the pla$tic???
The only Idiot I see here is the one who provided the above "analysis." It's amazing what someone can come up with when they have zero market experience and believes that all TPG's grade on the exact same scale for all series. Incredible!
roadrunner >>
you are truly not that stupid. i just know it.
any idiot knows that the MARGIN is what matters, not what pla$tic something is in. so if your gonna claim that XXX sells for less then YYY, then you would also PAY LESS for XXX.
it's pretty simple, i bet you can understand it if you try. then you will see that my previous statement was correct
K S
<< <i>I don't have much of a stake in slabbed coins anymore. My observation of the marketplace indicates that PCGS is now the clear winner in the slabbing game. If I were to go back into US coins I suspect I would want PCGS only. Coins in other holders would have to be discounted EVEN IF THE COINS WERE PROPERLY GRADED.
What are your current feelings? >>
All things being equal, PCGS is the clear winner for resale. NGC coins sell well also, especially if the coin inside is choice and has eye appeal, but PCGS holdered coins seem to garner an extra premium just for the name on the holder.
I still buy NGC graded coins at a premium, as long as the coin inside is worth it.
Tyler
Oh, here is my newest NGC coin.
and here is Megan Fox. I think she has a big crush on me.
You said:
<< <i>
some people's stupidity is exceeded only by their stupidity. any idiot at any show can see that coins in either ngc or pcgs holders sell about as easily as each other. could it just might be that the SELLER is the problem? not the pla$tic???
you are truly not that stupid. i just know it.........
any idiot knows that the MARGIN is what matters, not what pla$tic something is in. so if your gonna claim that XXX sells for less then YYY, then you would also PAY LESS for XXX.
it's pretty simple, i bet you can understand it if you try. then you will see that my previous statement was correct
K S >>
A few years back, I crossed a PCI graded coin from PCI to PCGS. I knew the PCI coin graded MS-65 was way overgraded. The seller insisted the coin was an AU-50. Most prospective buyers pegged it as EF-40/45 and did not buy the coin. I knew better; I crossed it to PCGS VG-10 but see below.
No, I don't think the excessive difference between PCGS VG-10 and PCI MS-65 is an problem caused only by the seller if they didn't price it properly at the VG-10 level. The seller was given the opportunity to overgrade the coin while having the protection of looking like the "good guy" because he was grading it 15 points below the assigned grade. I had to shame the seller into warning him that I would report him to PNG (at the time) to have him come down from his EF-40/45 price to the VG-10 price as he stated that his AU-50 price was indeed based on being an AU-50 grade as I had to keep asking him how he determined his price.
Having different grading services grade inconsistently is an unethical seller's dream to overcharge the less experienced buyer. But it is also a weak grading seller that also tends to overcharge for such slab. Too many buyers have been so badly burned that I see them literally throw away NGC slabbed coins at those gold and silver buyer places as they were so disgusted on how the sellers overcharged them at full retail prices as if they were graded on the PCGS tight grading standards.
But it is the "seller" that is the problem, you say?" Indeed, the seller is PART of the problem, which was initiated by the TPG "plastic" that was improperly graded to begin with and thus is the source of the problem.
I can clearly see that your statement is incomplete and is incorrect as a result.
A very small percent. I'd guess less than 5%.
Seems to me the big dealers know which plastic is the most consistent even if they are not perfect.
I am more comfortable with PCGS grading. I have bought
NGC slabbed coins that met my criteria, but the number
has been small. Especially when it comes to CB Halves ,
Standing Liberty Quarters, Morgan DMPL, Peace Dollars,
Barbers, and Seated Liberty in general, I prefer the PCGS
grading. However, this is my personal opinion. I have always
felt that one should buy the coin as well as the slab. The Combo
of a nice coin in a PCGS slab is irresistible to me.
Camelot
<< <i>
I still buy NGC graded coins at a premium, as long as the coin inside is worth it.
>>
I say that is more buying the coin and not the holder.
Any thoughts are appreciated...
<< <i>A few years back, I crossed a PCI graded coin from PCI to PCGS. I knew the PCI coin graded MS-65 was way overgraded. The seller insisted the coin was an AU-50. Most prospective buyers pegged it as EF-40/45 and did not buy the coin. I knew better; I crossed it to PCGS VG-10 but see below. >>
I'd really like to see an image of this item.
<< <i>
<< <i>A few years back, I crossed a PCI graded coin from PCI to PCGS. I knew the PCI coin graded MS-65 was way overgraded. The seller insisted the coin was an AU-50. Most prospective buyers pegged it as EF-40/45 and did not buy the coin. I knew better; I crossed it to PCGS VG-10 but see below. >>
I'd really like to see an image of this item. >>
If I were to have an error coin graded is one service preferable over another. I have several high end off-centers, brockages and clips that I'm thinking I should get into holders...
Any thoughts are appreciated...
Unlike with some other series, the error market doesn't seem to award a premium to PCGS. So I'd suggest making your decision based on the cost of certification. In other words, you should send your errors to NGC.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.