Being a little crazy paid off - More 2005 P Bison DDOs found!

Russellhome · December 9, 2005 3:41AM

I posted a few weeks ago with my 2005 P Bison Doubled Die 'Find' in a Westward Journey Nickel Series set. I sent the nickel off to Billy Crawford to see if it was a true DDO -- and he found that it was. Below is a link to the photos he took.

Here is a link to the photos on Billy Crawford's web site

I had just received the nickel set that had the DDO on the day after Thanksgiving. 12 other sets that I'd purchased in September did not have the DDO nickel. So I figured I might get lucky again if I quickly order more, since the DDO was in the current stock that the mint is sending out. Last week, I ordered 2 lots of Nickel Sets from the mint -- one for 25 sets and the other for 50, done as separate orders a day apart. They arrived this past Wednesday. The 50 piece lots had nothing interesting - but there was a distracting flaw in the reverse field of the OIV proof on 37 of the 50 sets, so I'm sending them back for replacement. The 25 piece lot had 9 DDO Bison nickels in it. I guess it depended what pile they filled the order from.

I don't know what these will sell for -- but I'm pretty sure they'll pay for the whole lot. And I guess it pays to be a little crazy sometimes.

I want to send most of them in to be graded. Any recommendations on the right grading service for modern variety coins such as these?

ChuckC · December 9, 2005 3:53AM

Do you have one for sale?

pharmer · December 9, 2005 3:55AM

My guess is that ANACS may slab them with attribution being it is Billy Crawford's, but ask him, and he may do a bit more, say contact ANACS, to facilitate it. They attribute some Crawford numbers now. You would probably want to send his attribution letter with the submission and clearly label them on the form.

HonoluluDude · December 9, 2005 3:55AM

<< I posted a few weeks ago with my 2005 P Bison Doubled Die 'Find' in a Westward Journey Nickel Series set. I sent the nickel off to Billy Crawford to see if it was a true DDO -- and he found that it was. Below is a link to the photos he took.

Here is a link to the photos on Billy Crawford's web site

I had just received the nickel set that had the DDO on the day after Thanksgiving. 12 other sets that I'd purchased in September did not have the DDO nickel. So I figured I might get lucky again if I quickly order more, since the DDO was in the current stock that the mint is sending out. Last week, I ordered 2 lots of Nickel Sets from the mint -- one for 25 sets and the other for 50, done as separate orders a day apart. They arrived this past Wednesday. The 50 piece lots had nothing interesting - but there was a distracting flaw in the reverse field of the OIV proof on 37 of the 50 sets, so I'm sending them back for replacement. The 25 piece lot had 9 DDO Bison nickels in it. I guess it depended what pile they filled the order from.

I don't know what these will sell for -- but I'm pretty sure they'll pay for the whole lot. And I guess it pays to be a little crazy sometimes.

I want to send most of them in to be graded. Any recommendations on the right grading service for modern variety coins such as these? >>

That means they are not that rare. 9 out of 25 sets sounds like a lot. You better get these on ebay, before the glut of DDO nickels are listed by everybody and their grandmas.

cladking · December 9, 2005 3:57AM

These are extremely interesting since doubled dies were considered impossible
now days even though they aren't very dramatic. With the popularity of these
nickels there should be some demand for this variety.

Russellhome · December 9, 2005 4:19AM

<< Do you have one for sale? >>

Not yet. I want to get them slabbed first. It is a tough variety to spot, and my guess is that authenticated DDO bisons will do much better than simply taking a sellers word for it (e.g. 'it will easily grade MS 65 or 66' -- yeah right).

HonoluluDude · December 9, 2005 4:24AM

<< 

<< Do you have one for sale? >>

Not yet. I want to get them slabbed first. It is a tough variety to spot, and my guess is that authenticated DDO bisons will do much better than simply taking a sellers word for it (e.g. 'it will easily grade MS 65 or 66' -- yeh right). >>

That's true. I sure wouldn't buy one if it wasn't 'officially' anointed DDO.

Russellhome · December 9, 2005 4:52AM

<< That means they are not that rare. 9 out of 25 sets sounds like a lot. You better get these on ebay, before the glut of DDO nickels are listed by everybody and their grandmas. >>

I've gone through a couple dozen rolls of nickels in recent months -- and it seems that you only get coins from 2 or 3 dies in each roll. In other words, if you get lucky and find some die crack or something, you can end up with 15 to 20 of them out of one roll. My guess is that the nickel sets were put together from coins that came to the handlers in some organized way (e.g. rolls) and sets from one palet will have many, and sets from other palets will have none. Like I said, 37 of the 50 sets in the 2nd order I made all had flawed proof OIV nickels that obviously came from the same die.

I don't know how much of a glut there will be -- but I'm sure the doubled dies struck many coins and being Satin Finish, none of them will end up in circulation. So I never figured they'd be terribly scarce. But in a discussion with Billy Crawford, he told me these Satin Finish dies wear out much faster than regular business strike dies. And this appears to be the case, as the 9 additional DDOs I found are clearly a later die state. All the DDO elements are there on the 9 I found, but they are not as crisp as the first coin I found. I also have one I found that might have been a weaker strike or something -- it has some of the elements/markers of the DDO -- but on others its too fuzzy to tell. So it could be that only the first XX percent of the coins struck with this die will show the DDO features and the rest will be unrecognizable. Time will tell. In any case, the 2004 P Peace DDO still sells well, and hundreds of them have been graded by NGC alone. I'm not too worried about it -- I think the value of these will do OK, considering Doubled Dies not occuring much these days. I think the $500 that some got for it on eBay might be a bit extreem - I'd be happy with half that.

pharmer · December 9, 2005 5:03AM

It's a real variety, a rarity these days, and there's a lot to be said for being recognized as a discoverer, with or without financial reward.

2manycoins2fewfunds · December 11, 2005 11:25PM

I wonder if this is a later stage of same die. Less detail but same effect in same location.
Came from 2005 Westward Journey Nickel set.

Opinions??

2manycoins2fewfunds · December 11, 2005 11:26PM

Second picture...........

seanq · December 11, 2005 11:49PM

2many: Looks the same to me. I know I've seen a bunch of other pictures or the variety, try to match your coin up in other places as well. It's possible more than one doubled die exists.

Russellhome: Congratulations on an exciting discovery. I hope it ends up having more legs than some other recent nickel varieties.

Sean Reynolds

2manycoins2fewfunds · December 12, 2005 12:14AM

Effect is almost lost due to what I assume is late stage of die. Most evident at base of US in Trust.
On the lower arm of R in trust it appears only as a small notch at extreme end of arm.

I'll mention I found 4 of these, all same late stage appearance out of 100+ Westward Journey Nickel sets I had on hand. Very difficult to see unless you know what to look for and catch light just right.

If nothing else this should guarantee additional interest in the Westward Nickel sets.

Bochiman · December 12, 2005 1:35AM

I need to check my 6 sets......

Russellhome · December 12, 2005 4:58AM

<< Effect is almost lost due to what I assume is late stage of die. Most evident at base of US in Trust.
On the lower arm of R in trust it appears only as a small notch at extreme end of arm.
>>

The additional DDOs I found were the same as you describe. I just got my nickel back from Billy Crawford and I did a little side-by-side of the most obvious feature (the R and the notch in the U). I emailed Billy the photo and he said it is definitly the same die, but in a much later die state.

I can still find all of the elements that Billy identified in his photographs, but they are certainly not as crisp as my original find. Over the life of the die, the visible elements seem to be ground away -- and almost start looking like mechanical doubling when they get blended together. Who knows what stage the die was in its useful life when this started occuring. Billy said these Satin Finish dies don't last as long -- but I wonder how many they did strike with the die for these nickels? And I wonder at what point did the DDO features vanish completly? I guess if 50,000 of these show up -- then I'll have my answer.

a few more pics of the later die state...

You can still see the separation lines in the 'OD' of GOD -- but it does appear to be filling in.

In my original find, you could see clear notching in the '2' of 2005. In the 2nd find, it looks more like mechanical doubling. But you can still see (barely) the separation lines in the '0'.

This DDO is tough to spot. My guess is that a great many will go undiscovered - waiting for cherry pickers to find them.

Russellhome · December 12, 2005 5:26AM

I do have one question for the 'experts' I forgot to ask... If I were looking to buy one of these DDO bisons, I'd much prefer the early die stage over these later die versions. When I get these graded and slabbed, will the coin service take the die state into consideration and denote 'late die state' on the older, or will the mint state ranking take care of it (e.g. late die coins being MS60/61 and early die state be MS65/66)?

BECOKA · December 12, 2005 5:31AM

You would have to e-mail David Hall directly if you want them slabbed in PCGS holders. Sometimes he can get something like that setup if there is a definate distinctive way to identify it.

I say go for it and re-post when you get some slabbed whoever ends up slabbing them.

coinspeculator · December 12, 2005 5:35AM

hmm, i have one too , but they dont appear do be a double strike. it looks more like the satin finish was places on the planchlet
before it was struck. the amount of satin may have been a little thick and not fully hard, so when the coin was struck it left a kind of shadow because the die was clean. and the pressure displaced some of the satin finish.
although i am not sure if the finish was placed on the planchlet before the strike. under a 10 x loop it is difficult to see.

clackamas · December 12, 2005 5:38AM

<< I do have one question for the 'experts' I forgot to ask... If I were looking to buy one of these DDO bisons, I'd much prefer the early die stage over these later die versions. When I get these graded and slabbed, will the coin service take the die state into consideration and denote 'late die state' on the older, or will the mint state ranking take care of it (e.g. late die coins being MS60/61 and early die state be MS65/66)? >>

No they won't note the die state. Also, you have to get the grading services to recognize the variety, this is no easy task. PCGS will only certify cherry picker varities.

seanq · December 12, 2005 6:05AM

<< 

<< I do have one question for the 'experts' I forgot to ask... If I were looking to buy one of these DDO bisons, I'd much prefer the early die stage over these later die versions. When I get these graded and slabbed, will the coin service take the die state into consideration and denote 'late die state' on the older, or will the mint state ranking take care of it (e.g. late die coins being MS60/61 and early die state be MS65/66)? >>

No they won't note the die state. Also, you have to get the grading services to recognize the variety, this is no easy task. PCGS will only certify cherry picker varities. >>

Good luck getting something new into the Cherrypickers' Guide, or getting the author to return your email. Billy Crawford is a very well respected researcher and attributor, I would think a letter from him with photos and a couple of coins would be enough to convince ANACS. I'm not sure what it would take at NGC or PCGS, but there are a couple of recent examples to reference.

PCGS did attribute the High and Low Leaf WI quarters shortly after they were discovered, but IIRC J.T. Stanton was active in the debate over the coins and actually gave them a FS number. More recently, the Nickel That Dares Not Speak Its Name was recognized without a FS number. In both cases there were several vocal supporters actively campaigning and pushing the services to act. So I wouldn't expect either PCGS or NGC to move without a pretty hard shove.

Sean Reynolds

2manycoins2fewfunds · December 13, 2005 3:34AM

As far as those 25-50,000 potential DDOs go they may be widely dispersed. The 6 coin Westward Journey set wasn't something many would have bought in bulk. I suspect there have been a lot of individual sales.

It will take a very good eye and knowledge of what to look for to see the DDO especially in the later die state coins.

Heck I had already given 4 sets away to friends as 'stocking stuffers' before I started looking and found I had some DDOs in my original purchase lot. Now I have to figure out a way to slip in through the chimmey and check those stockings to see if I gave away a DDO!!

Being a little crazy paid off - More 2005 P Bison DDOs found!

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