Regarding the 1960-D Jefferson, and all other strike designations and their cynical opponents.
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Perhaps it's just a Modern thing, but I think it's a bit humorous to see all the hoopla and cynical remarks made about that 1960-D ultra-grade-rare Jefferson. A few things are clearly evident about the comments made out of ignorance concerning the value of the coin to those of us who collect them. I thought it might be enlightening to point them out:
1. Those who tend to downplay the significance of the coin have quite obviously never spent any time searching thousands of a specific date for a fully struck coin.
2. Apparently some members don't aspire to have the best examples of coins for a certain date/MM/type in their collections.
3. Some tend to view strike designations offered by grading companies by putting the cart before the horse, forgetting that the designation was sought by collectors long before it was offered by a service.
4. Some members are just unable to grasp the simple fact that when they have no experience in a certain area of the hobby, they should probably not worry about their post count and just keep silent. Other fools may be impressed by your false wisdom and cynicism, but many more will think you a bigger fool.
Did I mention that I'm a Jefferson collector and I think the coin is quite significant??
Al H.
1. Those who tend to downplay the significance of the coin have quite obviously never spent any time searching thousands of a specific date for a fully struck coin.
2. Apparently some members don't aspire to have the best examples of coins for a certain date/MM/type in their collections.
3. Some tend to view strike designations offered by grading companies by putting the cart before the horse, forgetting that the designation was sought by collectors long before it was offered by a service.
4. Some members are just unable to grasp the simple fact that when they have no experience in a certain area of the hobby, they should probably not worry about their post count and just keep silent. Other fools may be impressed by your false wisdom and cynicism, but many more will think you a bigger fool.
Did I mention that I'm a Jefferson collector and I think the coin is quite significant??
Al H.
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Comments
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
In general do you think that the moderns are easier to find fully struck, or are they just as elusive as in other older series? Or does it just depend on the series itself (i.e., Jeffs are generally well struck most of the time in a particular date, but other series are typicall well struck in all dates, etc.)?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
David Bowers had a column called "The joys of collecting".
Forget about what others say......collect what you want.........pay what you want.
H
O
B
B
Y
Maybe its in our nature to argue amongst ourselves only to subconsciously try to justify what we ourselves like.
I don't know..........
I come here to learn and impart my knowledge to others.
Pete
In the end, the study of Jeff nickels is quite complex (perhaps the most complex series of coins from 1938 to present). There are coins in holders I have seen that clearly do not deserve to be called "FS" using one or more of the various techniques/standards used to determine FS. Indeed, graders at the various services have (IMHO) over time slabbed "FS" coins that are not deserving of the "FS" designation and, on the flip side, there are many coins not labeled "FS" that are deserving of the designation applying one or more of the accepted standards.
It will be interesting to see whether, over the next decade or so, this series begins to get graded in a more uniform fashion between the top grading companies (and even within each grading company iteself). In the meantime, all I can say is that TRUE FS specimens of many of the coins in this series are quite elusive and highly collectible. There is little difference from the way I see it between a true 1961(d) gem FS nickel and a 1945(p) true gem+ FB Merc.
Wondercoin
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Just to throw this into Al's post. Here is a 95 P Jeff with almost Full Steps----It's a real beauty isn't it?
They sure can be, such stunning detail, I just shot this image...
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Al:
In general do you think that the moderns are easier to find fully struck, or are they just as elusive as in other older series? Or does it just depend on the series itself (i.e., Jeffs are generally well struck most of the time in a particular date, but other series are typicall well struck in all dates, etc.)? >>
It depends on your definition of fully struck. If meant in the strictest sense that 100% of
the detail must be present then I wouldn't know because I don't know how tough the any
of the classics are to find in this condition. But, there are several dates of Jeffersons just
since 1965 that probably didn't have a single coin for the entire date fully struck. If you allow
for small strike deficiencies and define full as 99% of detail is present then generally Jeffer-
sons are far more difficult than the classics with the possible exception of shield and liberty
nickels. (especially shield). Most all Jeffersons are extremely elusive with a full strike. While
the steps knock more out of contention than anything else there are lots of things that will
often be weak on these. Part of the problem is that the detail never even made it onto the
dies so a full strike simply becomes an impossibility. Most all coins made since 1950 are made
to lower standards and this is nowhere more apparent than in the copper nickel coins.
One highly frustrating thing about Jeffersons is that they seem to be a little perverse. When
you find a beautiful clean clad coin it is more likely to be fully struck. But this doesn't seem to
work so well with the nickels. If it's clean it's poorly struck. If one side looks great the other
will be a dog. If it's well struck it will have a gouge and marks.
But when you finally find a really nice Jefferson you know it. In the mean time you can keep an
eye out for varieties, full steps, PL's and other special coins.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Your example looks to me to be the result of a grease-filled die (note the second L in Monticello).
The coins struck from those dies prior to the grease probably didn't have anywhere near full-steps.
This coin was probably struck with the same pressure as those before it, but the extra material in
the die (grease) caused the nickel to flow into the step area.
Ken
on the reverse, but the steps were full. This is an example the "cynical opponents" are speaking of.
do you understand why that coin looked like that, with good step detail but overall LDS???
I'd venture to say that the vast majority of the coins struck from that die had nearly non-existant steps,
as is typical for the issue. Nickel, being a hard metal, is also hard on dies. Over time, the building details
will be worn away from repeated use and other Late-Die-State characteristics will appear (roughness
in the fields, etc). Somewhere towards the end of it's life, an adjustment was made - perhaps the pressure
was increased by allowing the dies to come closer together - or the planchet was just a hair thicker
than normal (it would be interesting to find the exact weight of the referenced coin). In any case
that particular striking caused the metal to flow into the step area of the die (which was still in pristine
condition at that time from non-use), creating the coin with full-steps, but poor overall detail.
Or, I could be wrong!
Ken
Nope - doesn't float my boat. All I care about in strike is that it isn't poorly struck.
2. Apparently some members don't aspire to have the best examples of coins for a certain date/MM/type in their collections.
Actually, yes I do. I just don't consider arbitrary strike definitions as defining the 'best' example.
3. Some tend to view strike designations offered by grading companies by putting the cart before the horse, forgetting that the designation was sought by collectors long before it was offered by a service.
Based on what I've seen of the strike designations offered by the grading companies, I think a person is better off searching for a great coin with a just missed strike and buying more coins with the significant savings in price.
4. Some members are just unable to grasp the simple fact that when they have no experience in a certain area of the hobby, they should probably not worry about their post count and just keep silent. Other fools may be impressed by your false wisdom and cynicism, but many more will think you a bigger fool.
LOL. Like lack of knowledge or experience is gonna stop anyone around here [myself included].
<< <i>1. Those who tend to downplay the significance of the coin have quite obviously never spent any time searching thousands of a specific date for a fully struck coin. >>
Clearly erroneous. The paucity of well struck coins of particular dates and mints is endemic to collecting in a multitude of series.
<< <i>2. Apparently some members don't aspire to have the best examples of coins for a certain date/MM/type in their collections. >>
Probably true in many cases, but really misses the point entirely. The cost of acquiring the “best” examples is well beyond the means of most collectors. But the real point being debated is whether a coin really is the “best” merely by making the strike designation. No one has yet to explain why an MS 65 FS is “better” than an MS67 with superior luster and overall eye appeal.
<< <i> 3. Some tend to view strike designations offered by grading companies by putting the cart before the horse, forgetting that the designation was sought by collectors long before it was offered by a service. >>
No. The point is that there is a lack of agreement among the society of collectors as well as
among the grading companies as to what it takes to earn the FS designation.
<< <i>4. Some members are just unable to grasp the simple fact that when they have no experience in a certain area of the hobby, they should probably not worry about their post count and just keep silent. Other fools may be impressed by your false wisdom and cynicism, but many more will think you a bigger fool. >>
Sorry, but the posts by many experienced Jeff collectors in the FS Jeff thread started by Koincat refute your point
I also especially like this discourse in the original thread about the 1960-d FS:
<< Now for the real fun... full steps, whether 5, 5.5 or 6, basically require that the steps be uninterrupted by a nick or mark. On a coin that grades MS65 or perhaps 66, the nick may be small, and effects the steps, but does not effect the rest of the structure of Monticello... and if Monticello looks pretty attractive, why should that coin basically be written off because it does not have full steps? In fact, the strike may well be as good, if not better than a full steps example... this is just one of the concerns and issues I have with Full Steps being the only designation for this series... it is just not the most representative way of describing the state of preservation of the coin... >>
<<Another case of, "to each his own" and "hopefully, others will catch on!" I have several high quality coins in my collection that have a minor flaw with the steps! Whether it be a bridge, nick or struck-thru or the steps did not completely strike up. A COLLECTOR NEEDS TO EXAMINE THE ENTIRE COIN! And many new collectors are learning this. It's too much of a risk to buy overgraded certified coins and hold them. The window to move such coins is not that wide for this series.>>
One further point. Some joker started a spoof thread about bringing a 30X stereo-microscope to a coin shop to buy state quarters. Perhaps that would not be so funny if he were buying FS Jeffs.
CG