Are the 1913 Liberty nickels proofs or are they not proofs?
fivecents
Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
......that is the question.
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<< <i>According to the dealers that split them up, two are proofs and three are not. >>
Wow! I always thought all 5 were considered proofs. Thanks for the info TDN.
<< <i>However, the fabric of even the finest specimen does not compare to that of a normal proof of the series. >>
So all five 1913 liberty nickels have business strike type surfaces?
Simple answer: no - they are a mixture of prooflike and matte.
Complex answer: define business strike surfaces. The surfaces of a business strike depend on how many have been struck off the die. The cartwheel luster that people love doesn't show up for quite some time - it takes die wear to occur.
made late at night by midnight minters who tried to make them as special presentation master proof coins as they could with what they had maybe adding some tonnage to the press and polishing a few blanks on a leather apron before striking with non proof dies
since they where sort of haphazardly specially prepared more so thean a regular biz strike i do not have a problem with calling them proofs
but i would myself if i was the service of choice to grade them
put on the holder
unofficial "midnight minted" essai-piece de caprice
and leave it at that
Objection - assumes facts not in evidence.
Andrew
<< <i>Isnt the term Proof meant as to describe the method of manufacture. Weather or not the actual coins have what we currently consider to be Proof in appearance is of little concern in determineing weather they are proofs or business strikes. >>
Technically, yes. However, earlier mint records being what they are the determination frequently comes down to a best guess scenario based on the appearance and die characteristics of some issues.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>According to the dealers that split them up, two are proofs and three are not. However, the fabric of even the finest specimen does not compare to that of a normal proof of the series. >>
It's strange that two are considered proofs and three are considered uncs. You would think all five would be struck in the same manner...especially since all five 1913 Liberty nickels were struck in a single night. All five were struck from the same die, so either they polished the die on the last two coins struck or the increased the number of strikes per coin on two out of three of the coins.
<< <i>Weather or not the actual coins have what we currently consider to be Proof in appearance is of little concern in determineing weather they are proofs or business strikes. Its the method of their manufacture that needs to be determined,
were they specially struck from specially prepared die? >>
No. Standard business strike die, but a brand new one so presumably all the details are sharp and crisp and the die freshly polished. (All dies have to be polished after hardening to remove oxides from the heating process.)
<< <i>Were they given multiple strikes to make sure that all the details were brought out fully? >>
No, only one of the coins is fully struck, the Elisaberg coin.
<< <i>Were the planchets given special care in their manufacture? >>
No, the planchets were not polished and appear to be standard circulation planchets.
They are basicly PL or Semi-PL coins struck from new dies before the dies wore enough to impart a cartwheel effect to the surface of the coins.
Tom DeLorey (new screen name)
<< <i> Wonder if anyone that was working at the mint at that time is still there and could answer that question.{/q]
Considering they were struck Ninety three years ago, any employee from back then still working there would have to be about 113 years old.
<< <i>How come no one makes counterfiets of these? >>
They do, I've owned three, and one of the numismatists at the midnight meeting examining the fifth specimen had seven of them in his pocket to show the Walton family after their turned out to be fake in order to show them how common the fakes were.