Can or will coins naturally tone after they're slabbed?
CoinHusker
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I was just thinking about that and wondering if coins that are not toned, can or will tone after they are slabbed? With the current interest in toned coins, it makes me wonder if that interest will either decrease or increase if the supply of naturally toned, high grade, coins is effected by slabbing.
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I have never observed coins that toned in any of the top 3 slabs, after they were slabbed.
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<< <i>Many coins have Rim Toned in ANACS Slabs. >>
Thank you!
I have a few coins in ANACS slabs that I SWEAR have gained some rim toning since I bought them. I asked a question about that a few months ago, and was pooh-poohed.
From what I've read, studied, and experienced - yes!
Even though the top 3 slabs are designed to be airtight, every so often they can develop (or have from the start) very minor leaks.
Outside of this potential and perhaps rare leakage, any contaminant left on the coin at grading will be entombed with the coin for a very, very long time. Fingerprints, dust, foreign objects, epidermal scurf (love that one), oily residue from an improperly neutralized dipping or cleaning - the list is, of course, virtually endless.
While the cavity in the slab is sealed, there exists a very minute volume of air in the cavity. The effects of any contaminant in that small space will be magnified - there is no clean atmosphere available to dilute the outgassing contaminant.
"Outgassing" leads me to my next comment. Outgassing is not only what I do after a meal rich in broccoli or brussels sprouts. All metals, metallic contaminants, plastics, and the aformentioned foreign objects will outgas - which is to say that they will slowly release contaminants into whatever atmosphere in which they are contained. Back in a prior carrer in electronics, outgassing of certain components was a major headache when these components were exposed to extremes in heat, light, and radiation energy.
Thankfully we do not take our coins up into outer space, or otherwise expose them to many extreme environments. But keep in mind that virtually no completely non-reactive plastic exists, and if the least reactive plastic materials were used (like mil-spec products), the cost of the individual slabs would be prohibitive.
So, in the end, I believe that virtually all coins in plastic slabs will eventually change - now, how pleasant that change will be, and how long it will take - these are the questions that only time will answer.
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<< <i>I purchased this old pci holdered proof franklin that had said the coin was 95% white......
Wow - that's really pretty!
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
"Outgassing" leads me to my next comment. Outgassing is not only what I do after a meal rich in broccoli or brussels sprouts.
Thanks for the replies guys. I guess only time will tell what will happen.
All plastics have some degree of gas permeability.....meaning they are susceptible to proximic environmental hazards, such as paper, and moisture.
<< <i>There was a story on this in COIN WORLD several years ago. The slabs were placed in an environment that would potentially accelerate toning. Some of the coins toned rapidly while others showed very little toning. Unfortunately, I don't remember the issue date. >>
I'd seriously like to read this... If anyone knows about this article, please inform the group.
<< <i>There was a story on this in COIN WORLD several years ago. The slabs were placed in an environment that would potentially accelerate toning. Some of the coins toned rapidly while others showed very little toning. Unfortunately, I don't remember the issue date. >>
It was not long before ANACS slabs were made 1/16" wider.
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2.PCI green labels
3. Old ANACS..small ANA slabs.
All these slabs will tone coins.
Another factor is the sonic sealing process used to seal the two halves of the slab together. This can cause proof coins to haze and uncirculated coins to tone. Never submit any coin in a poly bag or poly-vinil flip...always use mylar flips only.
<< <i> Every generation of PCGS holdered silver coin can tone in the holder based on personal experience. I'm not sure what will mitigate this but I've had dozens of blast white silver coins change in the holder. >>
Yes coins DO tone and some even turn for the worse in PCGS, NGC and ANACS slabs. Heat and humidity are big players and yes, coins can be purposefully toned in slabs. I too have had coins that were White show evidence of toning long after slabbing and some "turn" a milky, white after a couple months and I have learned exactly what causes this so yes again, coin doctors not only tone them purposefully but bad doctors that haven't dipped the coins properly, forgetting to neutralize the dip, are one of the reasons coins turn. The other has something to do with the little bit of moisture that is left on the coin's surface before slabbing.
How many of you have ever noticed that there is moisture that comes out of the hoses you use to put air in your tires? Same principle. If a coin has been improperly dipped, kept in a bad environment fraught with heat and humidity, or inserted into a slab still moist, it will have adverse effects on your coins. Gospel....bet on it!
About a year ago I had an early Roosevelt proof slabbed by PCGS. It's a nice PR67 that had a pinkish tone when I submitted it and when it was returned. Just recently I took a long look at it and noticed that it's now got not only the pink rim with a bit richer color, but deep metallic purples and shimmering greens are breaking out over both the obverse and reverse. From a toning standpoint, it's gaining in value. I'd say it's 2X what it was in value a year ago. It's been stored in a climate controlled bank vault, with several other full PCGS blue boxes and none of them have shown any changes that I can tell.
This one just jumps out!! It has to be something endemic to the particular coin in question.
OTOH, I had a blue Merc turn so dark it's near black in a ANACs slab that was just lying on a closet shelf a few years ago. I'm afraid it's only hope is to be cracked and .......<shudder>........dipped. It was a nice full bander, it still is, you just can't see it anymore. I'll just have to be carefull with the EZest.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>All of the PCGS coins became discolored. This included brown spotty toning, faint toning and brown toning. None of the PCGS coins survived the 2 to 20 year test simulation in the same condition they started. >>
Wow... That's going to wrinkle a few feathers....
Here in the High Dry Desert of Colorado we do not get much toning so send me your PCGS Slabs and I will store them for you...
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Take Care, Dave
<< <i> - this 2000 press release discusses the article/study: link >>
Thanks for the link Mark!
<< <i>Absolutely!
About a year ago I had an early Roosevelt proof slabbed by PCGS. It's a nice PR67 that had a pinkish tone when I submitted it and when it was returned. Just recently I took a long look at it and noticed that it's now got not only the pink rim with a bit richer color, but deep metallic purples and shimmering greens are breaking out over both the obverse and reverse. From a toning standpoint, it's gaining in value. I'd say it's 2X what it was in value a year ago. It's been stored in a climate controlled bank vault, with several other full PCGS blue boxes and none of them have shown any changes that I can tell. >>
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<< <i>2bucks - this 2000 press release discusses the article/study: link >>
Thanks for the link coinguy1 that was fast! I'm somewhat shocked. Is this still true for todays slabs? What was the reaction by NCG and PCGS?
<< <i>
<< <i> - this 2000 press release discusses the article/study: link >>
Thanks for the link Mark!
<< <i>Absolutely!
About a year ago I had an early Roosevelt proof slabbed by PCGS. It's a nice PR67 that had a pinkish tone when I submitted it and when it was returned. Just recently I took a long look at it and noticed that it's now got not only the pink rim with a bit richer color, but deep metallic purples and shimmering greens are breaking out over both the obverse and reverse. From a toning standpoint, it's gaining in value. I'd say it's 2X what it was in value a year ago. It's been stored in a climate controlled bank vault, with several other full PCGS blue boxes and none of them have shown any changes that I can tell. >>
Sadly, no. My curent Mavica can't do macro well enough. A photo set up table with the proper camera is in my plans after the holidays. I'm tired of being handicapped by my lack of pictures on this forum. I'm going to go after that camera that Russ recently grabbed as the price seems great and the camera can certainly do the job. I'll just have to do the learning curve thing with stands and lighting.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
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Hey HalfNut...
Congrats on your retirement and Thanks for Your Service, it is greatly appreciated...
You guy's that are experiencing the toning in the slabs, are you in a wet, average or dry climate...?
Just wondering if it's climate or chemical related...
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Take Care, Dave
<< <i>It's been stored in a climate controlled bank vault, >>
USE DESSICANTS - CHANGE OFTEN.
That bank vault environment is primarily intended for paper documents, not coins. They are usually fairly high humidty. Get a $40 hygrometer, place in your safe deposit, leave for a week, return and see what the humidity reads. I'll bet it's in excess of 50%.
Again, if you're serious, place plenty of dessicants in the safe.
Those various environmental gasses; i.e., sulfur and chlorine, etc. will penetrate any kind of plastic; the type and contruction of the ultrasonic seal doesn't matter much over time.......if the gases are present, they will penetrate.
.....feel better?
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~Wayne
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<< <i>
<< <i>It's been stored in a climate controlled bank vault, >>
USE DESSICANTS - CHANGE OFTEN.
That bank vault environment is primarily intended for paper documents, not coins. They are usually fairly high humidty. Get a $40 hygrometer, place in your safe deposit, leave for a week, return and see what the humidity reads. I'll bet it's in excess of 50%.
Again, if you're serious, place plenty of dessicants in the safe. >>
I do, and I change them 3-4 times per year. Like I said, that one slab is the only one that's shown any sign of color change out of over 300 in the same vault box.
So my conclusion, at least in this case, is that it's just that coin.
Still, there's plenty of evidence of coins turning in slabs.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff