1909 Robert Fulton So-Called Dollar, in gold (HK-375)

jonathanb · November 5, 2005 4:49AM

Fresh out of the mail, this is definitely one of my better eBay scores -- a Robert Fulton Dollar, in gold (HK-375). It might actually be gilt (HK-378) rather than gold, but HK doesn't list the weights, and short of a specific gravity test I don't know how to tell the difference otherwise. HK reports fewer than 75 struck for the gold, and fewer than 25 struck for the gilt. This is one of the minority of So-Called Dollars that are roughly the size of a gold dollar (15.5 mm in this case), rather than the size of a silver dollar, so this picture is a big enlargement. It has a matte finish, as struck.

Unfortunately, this seems to be rare enough that I can't find any sale records. Does anyone have an idea of its current value? (No, it's not for sale.)

jonathan

[This was my first opportunity to try photographing a gold coin. I "knew" that gold was more reflective than silver or copper, but I didn't really know it until now. I had my camera set on a +0.9 exposure (I don't know what units) based on suggestions from this board. I had to dial it all the way back down to +0.0 to get a decent picture of this gold coin. I think it turned out ok...]

1jester · November 5, 2005 4:56AM

It's beautiful. Is there any way to tell if this is authentic (I've never seen one before, but this token appears to have porous surfaces, analogous to a cast counterfeit)? Are you going to send it in for authentication and grading?

jonathanb · November 5, 2005 5:04AM

HK reports this having been struck in two varieties, with a matte finish or a bright finish. I guess this is the matte finish. Other than that, I have no idea if this is authentic. I'm hoping that if someone were to bother counterfeiting something, they wouldn't have chosen something so esoteric to put their effort into.

I'll probably send it off for grading at some point, but I'm not in any particular rush.

jonathan

MrSpud · November 5, 2005 5:19AM

Very cool So-Called Coin!!!

jonathanb · November 18, 2005 10:45AM

For the record (does anyone other than me use these threads as a reference source?), I showed this around at the Boston coin show today, and found a couple of dealers who were willing to come up with numbers.

In each case I said upfront that the coin was not for sale.

One dealer said it was worth $400-500. The other said it was worth $1500-2000.

I obviously like the second number, but I think the first is probably more realistic.

FYI.

jonathan

291fifth · November 18, 2005 11:56AM

1. Get it certified. This will get you the proper HK#.
2. Rare pieces like this need to be auctioned in the "right" auction to get their true value. I don't recall ever seeing one before.

keets · November 18, 2005 12:31PM

most of the Gold SC$'s are listed as rare and don't show up very often. this Hudson counterpart to your Fulton came to me quite by accident-----i stumbled onto it at a Cleveland Coin Expo a little over a year ago and wasn't certain if it was genuine mainly because of the finish and the fact that the reverse is "coin oriented" instead of medallic. i brokered an arrangement to have the dealer send it to either NGC or ANACS with the sale contingent on athenticity. it now resides in an NGC MS68 holder. this Fulton would most likely holder at MS66-67 due to what appears as some porosity in Fulton's face and the sails. you'd be a better judge of that with the coin in hand.

how'd you manage to find it on eBay without me locating it, also??

my Hudson came to me via a collection that the dealer had purchased a few years earlier. it was in a holder with a complete Gold Commemorative Dollar set that the collector had owned since 1958. the dealer didn't know exactly what it was so i helped him identify it since i always take the Hibler-Kapen reference with me to shows.

jonathanb · November 18, 2005 1:56PM

As far as I can tell, the porosity you mention is as struck. HK says that this medal was made in a matte finish. The porosity is consistent across the both faces and now that I look at it, the edge also (huh!), so I guess that's what it is.

I don't know how one goes about grading a matte piece like this. There is a little doohicky you can see before the first bullet on the portrait side, but now that I look at it more closely it's possible that was as-struck as well.

Considering the rarity, I don't imagine that the grade makes a whole lot of difference in the value, even between 64 and 68. And as long as I plan on keeping this piece, the value is truly irrelevent. I guess I'll get it slabbed eventually, but not right now.

FWIW, the reverse on mine is also oriented coin-turn.

<< <i>how'd you manage to find it on eBay without me locating it, also?? >>

As you can imagine: some tricks and some luck. Some days more of the former. Some days more of the latter. I'll take what I can get. The real trick is having more scores than mistakes, and I think I'm on safely the plus side in that account so I can't complain.

Here's another one that I suspect you missed (or that you didn't bid on, anyway). This is HK-601 for those following along. It doesn't "really count" as a So-Called Dollar because it was holed, and technically HK omitted any holed varieties. But it has the same design as HK-601, and it's kind of neat with the original pin. Nice cameo, but the obverse is a little scuffed up, likely from banging around by the pin. Believe it or not, I got the Fulton medal for half of what this one cost -- and I'm not complaining about what I paid for this one either.

And to share the pain for things missed, did you see the silver Lexington medal [HK-16] that was listed a few weeks ago? It was posted at something like 7:00 pm on a Sunday night, with a minimum bid of $75. It then disappeared about 12 hours later. I wrote the seller asking what happened, and he told me that someone made him a direct offer that he accepted -- for $200! Aargh!

Considering how many rips I do find, I can't imagine how many more get missed...

Conder101 · November 18, 2005 7:16PM

<< <i>a Robert Fulton Dollar, in gold (HK-375). It might actually be gilt (HK-378) rather than gold, but HK doesn't list the weights, and short of a specific gravity test I don't know how to tell the difference otherwise. HK reports fewer than 75 struck for the gold, and fewer than 25 struck for the gilt. This is one of the minority of So-Called Dollars that are roughly the size of a gold dollar (15.5 mm in this case) >>

Weight will still be the key. You say it is 15.5 mm. If it is roughly the same thickness as a gold dollar it should weigh a little over 2 grams. If it is gilt copper the weight would be closer to 1 gram. (Since gold is roughly twice as heavy as copper for the same volume.) So, what does it weigh?

Struntz · November 19, 2005 12:13AM

That Fulton has the normal finish for the 18kt gold strikes. I never found a Gilt specimen, and am not sure that they exist. Burnie and Kenney doubted that there were any, but H-K insists that there were because Elder said he struck 25 in Gilt.
The modern reference number foir the piece is DeLorey-77. You can read my article on Elder pieces in the June and July, 1980 issues of The Numismatist.
Tom DeLorey
P.S.: The ones that I had all had coin alignment, not medal alignment.

keets · November 19, 2005 12:24AM

you might also call Brian Silliman at NGC---1-866-627-2646 at ext. 219---since he does the grading of SC$'s and should have notes on diameter and weight. if he hasn't graded any of the Fulton Gold Dollars, i know he's graded at least one Hudson and i assume the weight would be the same. since information is scant, i'm not even sure of the composition, whether it's 90% or something else. my suggestion would be to have the medal holdered for authentication and protection, but i realize that's a personal choice. it could also be authenticated with any pertinent information about weight provided and then cracked out for whatever type of presentation you might want. the fee is cheap with all things considered. BTW, i'd place the value closer to the $1500 amount than the $400 amount, but that's predicated on a potential buyer being a dedicated collector/dealer.

jonathanb · November 19, 2005 3:54AM

Wow, great info. Thanks guys, and WELCOME, Tom!

Sorry, I forgot that I did get a weight after I made my original post. It's 2.3 grams. It's thicker than a gold dollar, but way thinner than a dime, and a dime is listed at 2.27 grams. So I guess that if it isn't gold, it's something that puts on a good imitation of it.

Thanks for the references, Tom. I don't have a copy of your book because I wasn't really planning on buying any Elder pieces, but now that I have this one I suppose I should brush up on my reading. I'll add it to my list. I'll also see about getting those articles from the Numismatist. I think the ANA Library has a service that will send them to me if I ask nicely. I'll look into that.

I know of Brian Silliman, but not personally. I'd rather not impose with a phone call under the circumstances. I'll get this sent off to him eventually. As you say, the fee is cheap enough. I'm just lazy.

jonathan

BlindedByEgo · November 19, 2005 4:01AM

A really great thread, guys. I learned something this Saturday morning - always a good start!

dealmakr · November 19, 2005 8:49AM

Hi jonathan,

What a nice pickup from Ebay. If NGC holders the coin as gold HK#375 in 65-66 I would be a buyer at 1500, so there is your firm market bid quote for valuation. A lot of so-called's are priced all over the map with quite a few really rare pieces not commanding too much premium for their true mintage rareity. I do see a great deal of interest coming along in this area over the last year or so after many years of quiet. As collectors are able to make the determination of what is really rare as compared to the scale used in the HK book. All of the Elder medals are very difficult to find and its nice that Tome DeLorey came out of lurking to field a comment. His work on Elder is a must have addition to the HK book. As a medal collector I found the following quotes to sum up my collecting interests;

Medals are original documents in metal. In stuying them we study history at its source.

One is to look upon a cabinet of medals "as a treasure, not of money, but of knowledge"

From the preface

American Colonial History Illustrated By Contemporary Medals

C Wyllys Betts

Best Regards,

dealmakr

keets · November 19, 2005 9:21AM

can you guys give me the book's title so i can pick it up??? it sounds like a good read and a good addition to a Numismatic library. from my little knowledge of Thomas Elder, he seems like an under-appreciated champion of the hobby at a time when interest was strong. does the book detail anything about who did the die work or any other specifics??

jonathanb · November 19, 2005 1:03PM

DeLorey, Thomas K. "Thomas L. Elder, a catalogue of his tokens and medals." Offprint from The Numismatist, June-July 1980. 1329-51, 1608-30p. ill.

Obviously, I didn't realize when I made my earlier response that the book I was thinking of was the same as the Numismatist articles Tom already had cited. Surprisingly, this isn't showing up on my standard used-book searches. Tom, I don't suppose you own the copyright on those articles, and would be interested in posting them electronically?

Hi, dealmakr, I didn't realize you were on these boards. Thanks for the market bid, but I'm going to hang onto this one. On the plus side, you can be confident that I'm not going to be a competitor at that price whenever another one shows up.

A price level like that probably means that the silver and bronze versions would also cost more than I wanted to pay. Oh, well. Maybe I'll get lucky again. Never know...

jonathan

Conder101 · November 19, 2005 8:15PM

<< <i>Sorry, I forgot that I did get a weight after I made my original post. It's 2.3 grams. It's thicker than a gold dollar, but way thinner than a dime, and a dime is listed at 2.27 grams. So I guess that if it isn't gold, it's something that puts on a good imitation of it. >>

Just the opposite. A weight of 2.3 grams makes it much MORE likely to be gold. At 2.3 grams it is much too heavy to be copper and since it is thinner than a dime and smaller in diameter but still weighs more than a dime mens that it must be made from a metal with a greater density than silver. Lead is too close to silver to account for the weight difference. The only commonly available metals that would be possible would be gold or some of the platinum group metals. With those choices it is almost certainly a gold alloy.

Struntz · November 20, 2005 2:32PM

I do hold the copyright to that article, but have no electronic version of it I could post.
If somebody wished to scan it and post it on a free website relevant to exonumia, I would probably say yes to a written request. I do not think that The Numismatist would or can object to this posting, but I would prefer that the poster request permission from them as well.
Tom DeLorey
P.S.: I think we did 100 bound copies of the articles.

keets · November 20, 2005 2:53PM

I do see a great deal of interest coming along in this area over the last year or so after many years of quiet. As collectors are able to make the determination of what is really rare as compared to the scale used in the HK book.

it seems that what might be happening is twofold-----the rise of all things Numismatic has grabbed SC$'s and started to raise prices/availability/awareness, while at the same time we could possibly be seeing the collections started during the early 1960's/subsequent to the original Hibler-Kappen printing being dispersed. i suppose that current surviving populations might be higher than Hibler-Kappen researched, i only wish NGC/ANACS/PCGS made their pop reports of the medals readily available. that would give some information that might be helpful.

jonathanb · November 26, 2005 11:26AM

I can scan the article no problem, but I don't have a useful website to host the result. Does anyone have one that they could volunteer (or have a suggestion of one that we should approach)?

jonathan

cadmanco · November 29, 2005 2:44AM

Hi Jonathan....

A Super find indeed. probably one for the records. The item is a very nice piece. I have one, yet to be graded and
I also have one in silver. I plan on getting them both sent through NGC, as soon as their back logs are cleared some,
which is probably next year sometime, if lucky.

I too, like Mr. Tom DeLorey, have never seen the gilt or bronze pieces. I've seen very few of the gold and silver ones!
I'll be happy to share scans of mine with you, if you so desire.... let me know

I have scanned my copies of the Numismatist with Mr. Tom Delorey's reference. I use them in PDF format on my machine for
easier lookup. I'd be happy to send an electronic copy to Tom, if he wishes.

John
cadmanco

jonathanb · November 29, 2005 5:06AM

Sure, John, I'd love to see a pic of your gold to compare to mine, and of a silver to compare with both. (I found your registry set a few weeks ago by accident. Very nice!) Post them to this thread for easy comparison?

[And no, this doesn't count as one for the records. It's pretty nice, but I don't think the records kick in unless your score tops the $10K level, or maybe even higher. There have been LOTS of good scores off eBay...]

Welcome to the boards!

jonathan

cadmanco · November 29, 2005 9:28AM

Jonathan...

I still feel that was a pretty awesome find.... I have tried to get some pictures of the gold attached here...not sure if its working yet....
If this doesn't work, I'll post links to them. I'll try and post the silver pictures later. I also have scans of my Hudson pieces - all 4 of the small ones, aluminum, bronze, silver & gold.. I'll post links to those later as well..

Here goes nothing until I get use to this message system....

John
cadmanco

jonathanb · November 29, 2005 10:15AM

Tutorial for posting pictures
Other tutorial for posting pictures

Struntz · November 29, 2005 1:58PM

Yes, please send a copy to
CaptHenway@AOL.com
Thanks
TD

Struntz · November 29, 2005 2:02PM

By the way, I do have one of the Hendrik Hudson gold dollar sized strikes that none of you do. It is struck on a BU Honduras 1907 UN CENTAVO. A good friend gave it to me because I used to collect Elder and was collecting Honduras at the time. Will see if I can get a picture of it.
TD

CaptHenway · November 30, 2005 10:41AM

Will be using this screen name from now on.
OK to email me at:
CaptHenway@AOL.com
Tom DeLorey

jonathanb · September 10, 2006 9:35AM

Kudos to those who pegged the value at $1500+. One of these in NGC MS 66 just sold in the latest Goldberg sale (lot 565 - eBay link) for $2200 + juice. That was the first one I've seen for sale since I snagged mine last year. Congrats to the winner, if they're on the board.

FWIW, the one sold in the Goldberg sale wasn't mine. I still have mine, and I haven't bothered to send it in to NGC yet so it's not on the pops.

I've also picked up a silver version of my own, in the time since the original post. The silver version cost me 6x what the gold version cost, which just confirms that the gold really was one of my better eBay scores...

tmot99 · September 10, 2006 9:53AM

Cool! That's just cause I wasn't into SC$s then.

Thanks for bringing this thread to the top. Because I wasn't into SC$s I skipped over it. Great information and great score.

1909 Robert Fulton So-Called Dollar, in gold (HK-375)

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