I can't believe I'm asking a question about colonials--1760 Voce Populi halfpenny
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
Lot #3 of the ANR catalog is the coin described in my title. The text of the description states that there has been some past confusion over the difference between Nelson 8 (Zelinka 3-C) and Nelson 15(Zelinka 3-A), which share an obverse die. The text also states that they are sure this is a Nelson 8.
Is there any easy, simple way to describe why there is confusion between these two attributions? This is more out of curiousity from my point of view, and an (unwrittten) aspect of my question is to what extent attributions can get confusing.
Is there any easy, simple way to describe why there is confusion between these two attributions? This is more out of curiousity from my point of view, and an (unwrittten) aspect of my question is to what extent attributions can get confusing.
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
Attributions of colonials (and other series) can become controversial and times due to die state and die reworking. The nature of manufacture was relatively crude. Dies would damage easily and those dies would be reworked, thus creating what could be seen as a new variety.
Also, there are some varieties in certain colonial series that are sooooo close to each other that it is very difficult to distinguish between the 2. To complicate things further, most colonial issues only exist in low grade. Some varieties only exist in grades lower than G-4. A perfect example would be Connecticut coppers, with 355 different die varieties known.
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Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Actually, Pistareen should be the one to post an answer to this thread. I think he wrote the auction lot description for the 1760 Voce that you asked about.....
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I have researched Nelson 8 vs Nelson 15 and can explain the confusion about this specific issue.
The obverse of each variety is the same 'Long-Nose' design, like this:
The reverse of Nelson 8 is the same reverse as found on Nelson 4. The distinguishing characteristic of this reverse is that there is a flower and a dot on the frame on the right side of the harp. The coin in this photo is well worn, but if you look at the last harp string on the bottom and follow it toward the rim you'll see a big worn out flower on the harp frame and then a dot next to it:
The reverse of Nelson 15 is the same reverse as found on Nelson 9. The distinguishing characteristic of this reverse is that there are instead two hollow circles on the same portion of the harp frame. Follow that bottom harp string toward the rim and you'll see a hollow circle on the harp frame with another one next to it:
The confusion stems directly from the fact that in the 1975 Stack's Spence catalog, a Nelson 15 was incorrectly attributed as a Nelson 8. And then in the 1983 Roper catalog, Stack's misattributed another Nelson 15 and called it a Nelson 8. Then the 1988 Norweb catalog repeated the mistake, misattributing still another Nelson 15 and calling it a Nelson 8 (perhaps one could conclude that the catalogers had used the ealrier works as a reference, perpetuating the error). And then, just to ensure that the confusion was absolutely complete, the October 2004 Ford sale did it again, calling lot #8 a Nelson 8 when it also was really a Nelson 15.
Thats the story.
It took me about 30 minutes to type my detailed response above and set up the links, and then I see that Longacre, the guy I was responding to, hasn't posted a single message since August 31st and is, for all I know, hanging out with a bunch of hot babes over at the NGC forum.
I would feel a lot better if someone else would read this lest I feel I wasted my time.
Thanks.
a Wood's Hibernia Halfpenny. I still find Colonial coinage to be be very fascinating.
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
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In the meantime, I appreciate the effort and the detailed descriptions.
<< <i>TTT -
It took me about 30 minutes to type my detailed response above and set up the links, and then I see that Longacre, the guy I was responding to, hasn't posted a single message since August 31st and is, for all I know, hanging out with a bunch of hot babes over at the NGC forum.
I would feel a lot better if someone else would read this lest I feel I wasted my time.
Thanks. >>
Colonial-- thanks for your response. I appreciate the time and information, which I found very interesting. More interestingly, is the comment that I have not posted a single message since August 31st. Are you referring to the NGC boards? You certainly cannot be referring to the PCGS boards, where I am sometimes asked whether posting threads is my full time job.
But thanks again for your response.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I checked the archives under Longacre after posting this and didn't see any activity since your original question - but I must have screwed something up and was incorrect.
Anyway, as you can see by the history of misattribution of this Voce Populi variety, it has been probably just about the most confused variety in the whole colonial field. So good question -
I enjoyed your post. Especially, the provinancing of the misattributions<s>. What I have always found so interesting about this variety is that despite its very neat legend "VOCE POPULI" (voice of the people), they were not struck for the American Colonies and except for the ocassional immigrant from Ireland who had some in his/her pocket when they came over, they never really circulated here.
I am not sure when they first appeared in the Redbook, but that probably got more of them here than anything else.
JMHO,
novacaesarea
<< <i>What I have always found so interesting about this variety is that despite its very neat legend "VOCE POPULI" (voice of the people), they were not struck for the American Colonies and except for the ocassional immigrant from Ireland who had some in his/her pocket when they came over, they never really circulated here.
I am not sure when they first appeared in the Redbook, but that probably got more of them here than anything else. >>
Aaaaah. I agree, but I disagree. In the early days the Redbook reflected that which had actually been collected and recognized as 'Early American', whether it actually circulated in the colonies in quantity or not at all.
And so the fact that Voce Populi coinage was collected in the 'golden period' of named Chapman sales in he early 20th century (and some lovely examples were plated in Parsons, and Earle, etc.) inevitably led to the series being included in the Redbook. I therefore suggest that the Redbook was an effect, not a cause.
As an aside, the Parsons catalog suggests that the coinage was not accepted back home in Ireland and was instead shipped here. Which may be nonsense, but not more so than a lot of what gets posted here in the forum.
Interesting point on the Chapmans generating interest before the Redbook. I don't have a Mickley handy, but now I wonder if he had one. As to the Parson's observation, I think that is a bit of urban legend. Virtually no Voce Populi have been found by detectorists, Williamsberg, the Philadelphia highway dig etc. On the other hand, there have been many Hibernias found which I think were shipped here because of lack of local Irish acceptence (courtesey Jonathan Swift aka William Drapier).
Again, this is JMO.
novacaesarea