So many people so completely miss the whole point...
Numismatics is a study. If you're not willing to study and learn - LEAVE. It's that simple. Cleaning, polishing, dipping, doctoring coins is all detectable, and without a whole heck of a lot of effort. Third party grading services are a marketing tool and shouldn't be used as a crutch by those unwilling to learn all there is to learn about what they collect. If you are serious about building a nice collection of coins, learn first---buy later. Above all, instead of paying so damn much attention to the holders, how about looking at the coins once in a while. You would be missing much more than half of the good coins if all you did was look at overpriced plastic.
"It would be slabbed if there wasn't something wrong with it" is about the most untrue statement I've ever heard around here, and I see a number of people spreading that falsehood to the new people. The statement isn't only completely untrue, it's downright unfair to the dealers who don't like the fees associated with having every coin slabbed, and it's not fair to the collectors who might just buy into such crap because they respect your opinions.
I would go so far, in fact, to say that the people who make such statements are the very same people who seem unwilling or unable to figure out what coins look like when they are messed with, and are unwilling to take the time to really study and learn what there is to learn about what they are doing. They'd rather just make rash assumptions and spread them around like they were gospel.
Truth of the matter is that there are still tons of coins coming out of attics, old-timers' collections, and other places that are perfectly fine, valuable, and aren't ALL going to people who worship coin entombment. In other words, there ARE indeed plenty of good RAW deals out there. You just have to be educated enough to spot them.
Wouldn't most agree that a good TPG slab does provide a certain level of security? They're not infallible, but I think, in most cases worth what they're charge. Some like me, like slabbing for reasons such as, storage, uniformity, and long term protection from the elements (with low maintenance). I generally won't buy any pre-modern coins over $100 unless they're slabbed. If it cost me more then so-be-it. Consider it insurance. I've been burned a few times, and I have a pretty good head for what I'm doing. We're all fallible. TPG's should be looked at like a temporary numismatic expert as a friend standing next to you when you make a purchase.
So you choose to come up with an expensive method of storing your collection, and that's fine. I'm talking more about the people who somehow believe that buying slabbed coins is the ONLY way to build a collection, and that's complete horse crap.
I have a collection I've been working on for nearly 30 years, and there are fewer than a dozen slabbed coins in the whole collection. I chose flips and 20 pocket pages for my storage, which when used properly is completely safe, uniform, and very protected from "elements." I don't mind slabbed coins, but will not overpay for the priviledge of having an oversized chunk of plastic in my collection that has someone else's often incorrect assessment of grade on it. If I'm paying the right price for the coin, it doesn't matter what holder it's in.
As for the education, that part is pretty obvious to many, but I have studied my area of numismatics to the point that I am on the national list of speakers, have authored a website and a book on the subject, and am working on a number of other projects pertaining to it. Partly because of my insistence on getting an education rather than simply filling a safe with slabs, I know the difference between a monkeyed coin and a good coin, a real coin from a fake one. I have read every book I could get my hands on regarding the subject of numismatics, and don't regret for one single day having done it the way I have.
I just think it's completely irresponsible to tell a noob that if they ONLY buy slabs and don't even LOOK at coins that aren't slabbed (because all the "raw" coins are crap), they will forever be safe because the TPGs are gods and they are the only source to be trusted.
Thank you Mr. Daughtrey. I was beginning to wonder if ANYONE else out there actually got it. This is a hobby. If you are going to participate then learn something about it.
THEN TEACH SOMEONE ELSE!!!
Jim
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>So many people so completely miss the whole point...
Numismatics is a study. If you're not willing to study and learn - LEAVE. It's that simple. Cleaning, polishing, dipping, doctoring coins is all detectable, and without a whole heck of a lot of effort. Third party grading services are a marketing tool and shouldn't be used as a crutch by those unwilling to learn all there is to learn about what they collect. If you are serious about building a nice collection of coins, learn first---buy later. Above all, instead of paying so damn much attention to the holders, how about looking at the coins once in a while. You would be missing much more than half of the good coins if all you did was look at overpriced plastic.
"It would be slabbed if there wasn't something wrong with it" is about the most untrue statement I've ever heard around here, and I see a number of people spreading that falsehood to the new people. The statement isn't only completely untrue, it's downright unfair to the dealers who don't like the fees associated with having every coin slabbed, and it's not fair to the collectors who might just buy into such crap because they respect your opinions.
... In other words, there ARE indeed plenty of good RAW deals out there. You just have to be educated enough to spot them. >>
You make some good points. I agree that the grading services are primarily marketing companies--the grading is secondary. I disagree strongly that cleaning, dipping, artificial toning, tooling are easily detectable. The amateur jobs can by spotted a mile away, however, the pro coin doctors are very good. Some of these altered coins get past the grading services every day and those are full time professionals that see thousands of coins every month and get the latest news on the subject. If the doctors can get coins past the top pros, they can get past most collectors and many dealers.
On the point of the thread, I think it is throwing the baby out with bath water to avoid raw coins completely because ONE person is cracking out problem coins and selling them raw without noting problems. I would wager more money is lost by collectors buying marginal slabbed coins that problem raw coins. Why? Because collectors are lulled into a false sense of security by the grade on the slab. A coin that barely makes the grade on the 10th resubmission is NOT worth a retail price for that higher grade, but a large percentage of these marginal coins find home in collections, often sold at full retail to unsuspecting collectors relying on the grade on the holder. There is a difference between that marginal coin and one that is solid for the grade and a difference between that and one that has a shot at the next grade up. It takes most collectors years of looking at large numbers of coins to discern these differences--it is by no means easy. With the current market pricing that difference is often substantial.
Be careful out there, there are pitfalls both buying raw and buying slabbed.
<< <i>I would wager more money is lost by collectors buying marginal slabbed coins that problem raw coins. Why? Because collectors are lulled into a false sense of security by the grade on the slab. >>
Exactly right since the vast majority of big money is spent on slabs. The TPG's have given the market this crutch that too many people use as a replacement for learning to grade themselves.
The fact that all this crap goes on in our hobby does not make it right. Yes, all collectors should educate themselves, but it is the scammer that is harming our hobby, not the uninformed collector.
Good point!
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
You're correct about the old-school Stack's!! I like their catalogs, but would be scared to death to bid on raw stuff. Unless I knew it was one of the big rarities and I knew for sure it didint NEED to be slabbed, but:
I remember recently they had a 1933 Eagle UNSLABBED, and I was suspicious. It LOOKED gem, and well - it sold but I later knew as well as everyone else - it was unslabbed for a reason. It was cleaned. Still sold for $400,000+ though.
My belief, and is only a belief: Unslabbed big stuff, IE a 1916-D dime that is MS, can't get slabbed for a reason. I am just not savvy enough to tell a good raw coin from one with problems....
Yeah, lots of bad guys out there.BUT as CD said, "there are still tons of coins coming out of attics, old-timers' collections, and other places that are perfectly fine, valuable, and aren't ALL going to people who worship coin entombment. In other words, there ARE indeed plenty of good RAW deals out there. You just have to be educated enough to spot them."
<< <i>I think that having a general agreement that dishonesty (or at least deception) is rampant is a sad statement, and this perception IS harming the hobby and IS limiting the people entering it. >>
I totally agree. Why are so many people here going out of their way to defend the tactics of an obvious scam artist? Is it because they want to retain the option of doing the same if it's in their interest to do so? I find it hard to dismiss that suspicion.
Coin collecting is an optional activity. It's a hobby. It's supposed to be fun. Those of you who want to be elitist about it should take heed of a simple economic principle: Fewer new collectors means a smaller market for your coins when you want to sell them.
<< <i> I totally agree. Why are so many people here going out of their way to defend the tactics of an obvious scam artist? Is it because they want to retain the option of doing the same if it's in their interest to do so? I find it hard to dismiss that suspicion.
Coin collecting is an optional activity. It's a hobby. It's supposed to be fun. Those of you who want to be elitist about it should take heed of a simple economic principle: Fewer new collectors means a smaller market for your coins when you want to sell them. >>
I am not trying to defend an obvious scam artist. There is NO SCAM GOING ON HERE!! The seller is auctioning off EXACTLY what he says he is...a circulated coin. It has some problems. Would it be nice if he described them rather than simply showing them in the picture? Sure, but how does that make it an "obvious" scam? Does he "puff" the coin in his description? A little...ie he calls it nice, but SO DOES EVERY SELLLER OF ANY PRODUCT IN ANY ARENA!!. (How many of you really believe that if you drink a particular brand of beer that the twins are going to show up at your party and crown you "the man"?) He makes no false claims as to its grade or value.
So where is the scam?
As for being "elitist" about the hobby simply because I believe that participants should bear the final responsibility for their own actions, well, I guess I am guilty--not only in this hobby, but in life itself. However, I don't find that particular belief to be elitist, but democratic. I, and nearly every other collector I have ever met in this hobby has been extremely willing to share any and all of his information and experience with anyone who wished to actually learn something about numismatics rather than simply collect pieces of plastic.
Jim
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i> I totally agree. Why are so many people here going out of their way to defend the tactics of an obvious scam artist? Is it because they want to retain the option of doing the same if it's in their interest to do so? I find it hard to dismiss that suspicion. >>
I don't see myself as one of the people to whom you refer with this statement, but just in case I am mistaken and have misunderstood you--I am not defending anyone's actions. I am actually on the offense against stupid statements made by those who have been around for a while and need to grow up and realize their actions are watched by those trying to learn this hobby. Blanketing all coins not in slabs as being problem coins is immature and wrong. Furthermore, I'd rather not have anyone buy anything from me with the attitude that I'm selling raw JUST because I have problem coins and am trying to scam someone. I don't need that sort of customer base. I'd prefer to have the customers who are active in educating themselves who wouldn't think on such an immature level.
<< <i>Coin collecting is an optional activity. It's a hobby. It's supposed to be fun. Those of you who want to be elitist about it should take heed of a simple economic principle: Fewer new collectors means a smaller market for your coins when you want to sell them. >>
I, too, am guilty if being "elitest" involves educating one's self ad-nauseum on a subject before spending hard-earned money on that subject, especially when it is well known that there are a number of problems associated with buying in that subject that the collector needs to be very well aware of before making purchases. To lay the blame on the sellers and take it completely off of the buyer is irresponsible at best. Education is the key to this business/hobby, and self-education is better than any other kind. Hundreds of $1-$5 purchases should be made before the first $100 purchase. That's just the way it is for those who want a true education. Jump off the deep end and start tossing $100 bills around without any forethought and you're a great mark for a burn.
In all seroiusness, if the "new collectors" about whom you speak are all the type that would jump right out and blow wads of cash without any clue as to what they are doing, they aren't true collectors and won't last long in the market anyway, regardless of whether they get burned. They aren't interested in the coins, they are interested in money. Numismatics is too deep a subject for them as they will quickly figure out and move on to pork bellies or some other financial risk.
Numismatics is a study. If you're not willing to study and learn - LEAVE. It's that simple. Cleaning, polishing, dipping, doctoring coins is all detectable, and without a whole heck of a lot of effort.
Michael beat me to the obvious a few replies above, the rim filing was visible around eight o'clock in the obverse picture before the listing was removed. regardless of any other factors involved it was clearly visible. as jom so aptly posted, The TPG's have given the market this crutch that too many people use as a replacement for learning to grade themselves.
<< <i>To lay the blame on the sellers and take it completely off of the buyer is irresponsible at best. Education is the key to this business/hobby, and self-education is better than any other kind. >>
Do you apply that logic to the people who bought stock in Enron, Global Crossing or any other scandal-tainted company? Perhaps you do, but the legal system doesn't. The simple fact is that someday an activist prosecutor such as New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer is going to get wind of attitudes like the ones posted in this thread and score massive political points on the backs of the numismatic community, just as he and others did with Enron.
The behavior described by the OP is unethical, period, and also arguably illegal. The buyer's behavior is irrelevant to that determination. Such behavior would not be tolerated by consumers in any other retail business, and no other businessman worth the name would tell his potential customers to get lost if their knowledge doesn't meet his minimum standards.
You can sneer at investors and newbie collectors all you want, but you should also realize that their purchases help support the market for rare coins at current levels.
<< <i>The behavior described by the OP is unethical, period, and also arguably illegal. The buyer's behavior is irrelevant to that determination. Such behavior would not be tolerated by consumers in any other retail business, and no other businessman worth the name would tell his potential customers to get lost if their knowledge doesn't meet his minimum standards >>
Once again, how is it unethical to sell a raw coin? That is ALL that he was doing. Nowhere in his description did he call it anything other than exactly what it was--a raw, circulated coin. Did he describe all the bad points about his product? No, but contrary to your statement above, NEITHER DOES ANY OTHER SELLER OF ANY PRODUCT! If this is "unethical, period, and arguably illegal" then you better be ready to build a lot of new jails, because anyone who buys advertising on TV/radio/print is guilty.
Jim
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>The behavior described by the OP is unethical, period, and also arguably illegal. The buyer's behavior is irrelevant to that determination. Such behavior would not be tolerated by consumers in any other retail business, and no other businessman worth the name would tell his potential customers to get lost if their knowledge doesn't meet his minimum standards >>
Once again, how is it unethical to sell a raw coin? That is ALL that he was doing. Nowhere in his description did he call it anything other than exactly what it was--a raw, circulated coin. Did he describe all the bad points about his product? No, but contrary to your statement above, NEITHER DOES ANY OTHER SELLER OF ANY PRODUCT! If this is "unethical, period, and arguably illegal" then you better be ready to build a lot of new jails, because anyone who buys advertising on TV/radio/print is guilty.
Jim >>
It's unethical to knowingly misrepresent something you're selling, even by omission. In some business arrangements (and in some states), that constitutes fraud as well and is illegal. If you really believe that his practice is as commonly acceptable as you said, then try it with some other product and see what happens. Or better yet, call the National Collectors Mint and ask them about how New York authorities viewed their advertising tactics -- you will find that people are indeed hauled into court and even prosecuted for false advertising a lot more frequently than you think.
The bottom line is that the seller's practices don't pass the smell test. And neither do a lot of others in the coin business. The attitude of "I paid my tuition, now you pay yours" when unsuspecting buyers are burned is a turnoff. It's small-minded, mean and not worthy of a great pursuit such as numismatics.
<< <i>The bottom line is that the seller's practices don't pass the smell test. And neither do a lot of others in the coin business. The attitude of "I paid my tuition, now you pay yours" when unsuspecting buyers are burned is a turnoff. It's small-minded, mean and not worthy of a great pursuit such as numismatics. >>
The bottom line is that the seller's practices don't pass the smell test. And neither do a lot of others in the coin business. The attitude of "I paid my tuition, now you pay yours" when unsuspecting buyers are burned is a turnoff. It's small-minded, mean and not worthy of a great pursuit such as numismatics
For once...I actually agree with Newsy. Well said...
Rufus T. Firefly: How would you like a job in the mint?
Chicolini: Mint? No, no, I no like a mint. Uh - what other flavor you got?
<< <i>To lay the blame on the sellers and take it completely off of the buyer is irresponsible at best. Education is the key to this business/hobby, and self-education is better than any other kind. >>
Do you apply that logic to the people who bought stock in Enron, Global Crossing or any other scandal-tainted company? >>
Actually I don't apply any logic to the stock market because I don't participate. Once again you take my statements completely out of context. I am NOT speaking of THIS instance in particular--since the beginning of my involvement in this thread I have been speaking of a GENERAL ATTITUDE taken here by a number of less than responsible people who want to preach their opinions as gospel. I was - and am - speaking on the topic of the horse crap statement that all decent coins are slabbed...that's all, nothing more than that. Quit trying to make my statement something it isn't.
<< <i>You can sneer at investors and newbie collectors all you want, but you should also realize that their purchases help support the market for rare coins at current levels. >>
Actually I find myself helping "newbie collectors" quite often, perhaps on a scale far greater than your own investment in similar endeavors. In fact this coming week I am going to be speaking to a local coin club nearly 300 miles from home and am driving up there to do so. I have travelled up to six hours away for the sole purpose of helping collectors set up their computers/scanners/cameras, and have volunteered my time without compensation in publishing newsletters, writing articles, and the like. I hardly "sneer" at anyone who wants to take the time to learn what they are doing. Conversely, I do all I can to help them including giving money I cannot afford to give.
I do, however, sneer at people who look at monetary wealth and experience on the same level, and think that throwing money around on coins is the answer to learning a hobby filled with experience, history, culture, and mystery. This is the vast majority of those who are "burned" on deals because they didn't take the time to learn what they are doing before throwing their savings account at it. They expect instant answers to questions, immediate gratification in biulding entire sets of beautiful coins in a week or less, and don't have the patience (and in some cases brains) to learn how to grade, detect alterations and counterfeits, properly valuate what they are buying, or anything else a responsible collector does before making large purchases (those large enough to hurt if wrongly done, regardless of the amount). None of these things are rocket science in nature, and any reasonably intelligent individual with a will to learn can do so in a few months. Problem is, far too many want to jump right in being a "player" throwing their wads of cash around trying to impress someone without doing any homework first.
Although I hate to see anyone burned in any deal and think it unethical for anyone selling anything to purposefully hide information that would make a difference in a transaction decision, these impatient people I describe are constantly setting themselves up to be disgruntled and to leave the hobby shortly after entering with a bad taste in their mouths because they are unwilling to listen to experience. Then for those who do, they come here to see many people with thousands of posts here discussing how buying slabbed coins is the only safe way to buy coins. Damned if you do...that attitude is complete horse crap (as stated before) because it gives an incorrect impression to very impressionable collectors. That's my complaint, and that's why I am posting in this thread - not to "defend the tactics of an obvious scam artist."
Actually, as it were, I read the title of the thread and wanted to see what was inside. I read the original post and only made it half way through the replies before becoming insensed at the general attitude..."yeah, you should only buy slabbed coins - that's the only way to be safe."
How about knowing what you're doing before doing it? Is that not a good measure to take? If people knew what they were doing before "investing" in valuable coins, the slabs wouldn't make a hill of beans difference.
Coppercoins, since I collect non-U.S. coins, the vast majority of my purchases are raw. I consider myself pretty well-versed in the coinage of the countries I collect to the point where I don't necessarily need a slab to confirm my own opinion. But I can't agree with blanket statements such as this one:
"Numismatics is a study. If you're not willing to study and learn - LEAVE. It's that simple. Cleaning, polishing, dipping, doctoring coins is all detectable, and without a whole heck of a lot of effort. Third party grading services are a marketing tool and shouldn't be used as a crutch by those unwilling to learn all there is to learn about what they collect."
Slabbing is a very valuable tool if you want to buy coins online off pictures from dealers in countries where cleaning coins is perfectly acceptable and the coins simply aren't available on a sight-seen basis. It's very valuable when you buy coins that are so heavily counterfeited the fakes outnumber the real ones, and many are professionally done. What are you going to do, bring a scale with you to every coin show and weigh every coin? Or perhaps a kit to do onsite specific gravity tests?
Slabbing makes an international market in coins possible. You can study coins from now until doomsday, but you can't interpret information from a picture if the information isn't there and you can't hold the coin. Then you're forced to trust someone, whether it's the dealer's reputation, or the slabbing company's or your own hunch. What's the difference? It's still a risk, even if it's a calculated one.
I admire your willingness to help new collectors. But I am disgusted by the attitude of those who believe new collectors have to learn the hard way because some of us got burned once. That's not just mean, it's self-defeating.
There's a dealer in my area who is widely reputed to be a strong buyer of choice AU sliders such as Morgan dollars or Walkers so he can sell them as BU. The ANA kicked him out because his customer service practices ran afoul of their rules. Yet this dealer is still one of the largest advertisers in the numismatic press, which has not lifted a finger to even attempt anything remotely resembling journalism or consumer advocacy in this case. What does that say about the hobby? Why doesn't anyone seem to care whether people are being turned off from the hobby after being promised one thing and getting much less?
<< <i> There's a dealer in my area who is widely reputed to be a strong buyer of choice AU sliders such as Morgan dollars or Walkers so he can sell them as BU. The ANA kicked him out because his customer service practices ran afoul of their rules. Yet this dealer is still one of the largest advertisers in the numismatic press, which has not lifted a finger to even attempt anything remotely resembling journalism or consumer advocacy in this case. What does that say about the hobby? Why doesn't anyone seem to care whether people are being turned off from the hobby after being promised one thing and getting much less? >>
Does he sell these coins from coast to coast?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Basically, because I really don't care if people who are too lazy to do more than read the label on a piece of plastic rather than expend at least a modicum of energy learning what they are doing do leave the hobby. This does not mean that I think newbies need to "pay their tuition" by being burned a few times. It means that I feel that at least a little bit of study should be necessary before spending large amounts of money on coins whether slabbed or not.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
I don't buy raw coins anymore. But i have seen many posts that express regret that only older men seem to have coin collecting as a hobby. Certainly it is in the interest of ALL collectors to try to ensure that "ripping off" is kept to a minimum. In the particular case above, forget ethics for the moment. Lets look at what would happen in a court of law with all the facts and parties present. If a merchant was sued, and all the facts came out, It would be clear that the merchant was in possession of material facts which he deliberatly covered up. If he did not disclose all the facts he knew about the "net grade" of this coin, and its previous cleaning he would lose the case. Plus, in this case since he cracked it out, solely to deceive naive buyers he would be convicted of deliberate FRAUD! I think it is very telling that some of the posters on this board would take any other position that "this is ok" or "let buyer beware". This is a very shortsighted and imho immoral view of the facts presented here.
<< <i>Slabbing makes an international market in coins possible. You can study coins from now until doomsday, but you can't interpret information from a picture if the information isn't there and you can't hold the coin. Then you're forced to trust someone, whether it's the dealer's reputation, or the slabbing company's or your own hunch. What's the difference? It's still a risk, even if it's a calculated one. >>
Although it may be true that buying slabbed coins online is a wiser choice it is still not acceptable for people to state that any coin "worth slabbing is already slabbed" and for the same people to pass those rash assumptions on to new collectors.
The best way to learn the hobby and the reputation of any dealer is to ease into it with lower dollar purchases to see if the dealer is reputable, and only if completely satisfied with the purchases and customer relations of the dealer to move into bigger more expensive purchases. It not only gives the collector more time and education in studying the coins purchased, but also gets them set for making the larger purchases having experience and knowledge under their belt.
I never said, and do not condone the attitude that everyone should get burned to learn--I never have because I took it slowly and intelligently throughout the 30 years I've collected. I started with pocket change, moved to low premium coins, and collected those for over 20 years before making larger purchases. I know exactly what I'm getting when I make a purchase and will not purchase if I don't know exactly what I'm getting. I insisted on doing it this way because it was the only way of handling the process of learning without having to take lumps and learn the hard way. Ergo, I teach this way of learning the market because it worked for me, works for many others, and nearly all the people I know who have been burned (some of them time and time again) are the type that do not follow such a mantra.
ANYONE with patience and a noodle between their ears can learn to grade by using pocket change. They can learn varieties, die varieties, errors, and other oddities--what's common and what's not--by using pocket change. They can learn what cleaned coins are and learn what cleaning does to the coins using pocket change. They can "graduate" to premium value purchases of $5-$50 (whatever the comfort level is) and take it slowly learning in that area. At whatever pace a person chooses, they alone should know when they are ready for a larger purchase. THIS is the right way to do it. Take this advice and ask questions whenever possible or necessary. That's what this place should be used for--not to tell people to only buy slabbed coins because everything else is suspitious, worthless junk.
some of you guys should dispel with the PollyAnna notion that all should be fair play in this hobby....................or in any other walk of life worthy of human endeavor. bad things are going to happen, quite often to good people. learn about the hobby just as you learn about life in order to avoid the pitifalls and failings of your fellows. one thing to remember, just because me and some other members have not agreed with the general temper of this thread, it doesn't mean that we condone ripping off others or that we practice unethical behavior.
an old fishing axiom comes to mind which has reworded relevance to how the hobby works with certified coins; collecting based on the TPG's opinions breeds dependence and skepticism, collecting based on your own opinion breeds independence and confidence.
<< <i>I don't buy raw coins anymore. But i have seen many posts that express regret that only older men seem to have coin collecting as a hobby. Certainly it is in the interest of ALL collectors to try to ensure that "ripping off" is kept to a minimum. In the particular case above, forget ethics for the moment. Lets look at what would happen in a court of law with all the facts and parties present. If a merchant was sued, and all the facts came out, It would be clear that the merchant was in possession of material facts which he deliberatly covered up. If he did not disclose all the facts he knew about the "net grade" of this coin, and its previous cleaning he would lose the case. Plus, in this case since he cracked it out, solely to deceive naive buyers he would be convicted of deliberate FRAUD! I think it is very telling that some of the posters on this board would take any other position that "this is ok" or "let buyer beware". This is a very shortsighted and imho immoral view of the facts presented here. >>
No, I don't think that deliberate FRAUD is okay. I simply don't think that this particular instance qualifies.
What material facts did he cover up? The fact that it had once been slabbed? He placed it for sale as exactly what it currently is--a raw circulated coin.
I have several fomerly slabbed coins in my collection. If and when my heirs sell them it will be totally inmaterial to that future sale that once upon a time they were encased in plastic.
There are many many cases of fraud daily on Ebay--and elsewhere. Knowingly calling circulated coins MS as practiced by ALL of the TGP's is much more fraudulant and in the end much more damaging to the hobby than anything this seller has done.
Jim
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
I'll skip the "cleaning" part of what he covered up and go straight to "rim filing" - I believe that is generally an objective and factual determination, as well as a material one to most any collector.
Which was discernable as at least a major rim ding in the pic. Once again, a little time trying to find out what one was bidding on prior to placing that bid would have sufficed.
Jim
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
why do you guys feel so insistent on a seller having to divulge what is clearly visible in the picture?? have you ever listed a coin and not mentioned that it had a slight luster disturbance that wasn't easily visible in the picture?? have you ever listed a coin and not mentioned the slight reeding mark in the reveres lettering that wasn't easily visible in the picture?? have you ever listed a coin and not mentioned the slight strike weakness in a particular area that wasn't easily visible in the picture??
I'll skip the "cleaning" part of what he covered up and go straight to "rim filing" - I believe that is generally an objective and factual determination, as well as a material one to most any collector.
------------------------- Mark Feld
Well said Mark. If anyone has any doubt that this is unqualified fraud, ask any lawyer qualified in interstate commerce. I am not, but i have taken a few law courses.... it is FRAUD!!!! anyone who thinks it isnt is rationalizing, or does not understand the law...
<< <i>Which was discernable as at least a major rim ding in the pic. Once again, a little time trying to find out what one was bidding on prior to placing that bid would have sufficed. >>
"Discernable as at least a major rim ding" is very different from a known rim filing. And, if a seller is going to intentionally omit information about things like that, how is one to "find out what one was bidding on prior to placing that bid"?
You appear to be placing an unfair and impossible burden upon an internet bidder, and letting the seller off completely. The fact that a bidder is not fully informed or highly knowledgeable, does not excuse a seller such as the one being discussed in this thread.
The picture shows a coin that clearly has rim problems. A question to the seller as to the severity of the problem would have sufficed for any buyer who has done enough homework in the hobby that it is time for him to start buying sight unseen coins--raw or otherwise; a question to a more experienced collector would have set him straight.
I have never stated that the seller in this particular case is totally blameless. I merely disagree with the idea that the prospective buyer has no responsiblity for his own actions.
Jim
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i>A question to the seller as to the severity of the problem would have sufficed... >>
Jim, not if the seller is going to intentionally withhold information, as it appears this seller does. All that might accomplish is to make a potential return easier. I do agree, however, that buyers should be responsible in their actions/behavior.
I would like to state for the record (mostly to put an end to all the PM's threatening many of my most treasured body parts) that I am not this seller--do not work for this seller, have never purchased from this seller, and do not know this seller.
All the opinions expressed by me in this thread are just exactly that opinions. Take them for what you feel they are worth...just as I accept yours.
Jim
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
I didn't take time to read through all the posts, so forgive me if someone already made this comment:
What if the coin was cracked, bought by someone on eBay (without knowing) who submitted it to PCGS or NGC (or back to Anacs for that matter) and it slabbed with no problem. It would now be in a no problem PCGS holder. Would most coin collectors still have a problem with it?
My point being is I can tell you countless coins that were MS that went PF, countless more that were slabbed and then went AT on crackout/regrade, and even countless more that were AT and then got slabbed on subsequent gradings. Just because the coin was in a problem Anacs holder doesn't mean it is a problem coin, does it? And just because the coin is in a no problem PCGS holder doesn't mean it has no problems, does it?
My point is buy the coin and not the holder...and if you buy quasi-sight-unseen (e.g. eBay), it is probably a good idea to know the seller.
BTW -- DISCLAIMER: I am not taking a position on whether anything right or wrong has transpired nor am I defending anyone's actions. I'm simply making an observation
Comments
Numismatics is a study. If you're not willing to study and learn - LEAVE. It's that simple. Cleaning, polishing, dipping, doctoring coins is all detectable, and without a whole heck of a lot of effort. Third party grading services are a marketing tool and shouldn't be used as a crutch by those unwilling to learn all there is to learn about what they collect. If you are serious about building a nice collection of coins, learn first---buy later. Above all, instead of paying so damn much attention to the holders, how about looking at the coins once in a while. You would be missing much more than half of the good coins if all you did was look at overpriced plastic.
"It would be slabbed if there wasn't something wrong with it" is about the most untrue statement I've ever heard around here, and I see a number of people spreading that falsehood to the new people. The statement isn't only completely untrue, it's downright unfair to the dealers who don't like the fees associated with having every coin slabbed, and it's not fair to the collectors who might just buy into such crap because they respect your opinions.
I would go so far, in fact, to say that the people who make such statements are the very same people who seem unwilling or unable to figure out what coins look like when they are messed with, and are unwilling to take the time to really study and learn what there is to learn about what they are doing. They'd rather just make rash assumptions and spread them around like they were gospel.
Truth of the matter is that there are still tons of coins coming out of attics, old-timers' collections, and other places that are perfectly fine, valuable, and aren't ALL going to people who worship coin entombment. In other words, there ARE indeed plenty of good RAW deals out there. You just have to be educated enough to spot them.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
Looking for alot of crap.
I have a collection I've been working on for nearly 30 years, and there are fewer than a dozen slabbed coins in the whole collection. I chose flips and 20 pocket pages for my storage, which when used properly is completely safe, uniform, and very protected from "elements." I don't mind slabbed coins, but will not overpay for the priviledge of having an oversized chunk of plastic in my collection that has someone else's often incorrect assessment of grade on it. If I'm paying the right price for the coin, it doesn't matter what holder it's in.
As for the education, that part is pretty obvious to many, but I have studied my area of numismatics to the point that I am on the national list of speakers, have authored a website and a book on the subject, and am working on a number of other projects pertaining to it. Partly because of my insistence on getting an education rather than simply filling a safe with slabs, I know the difference between a monkeyed coin and a good coin, a real coin from a fake one. I have read every book I could get my hands on regarding the subject of numismatics, and don't regret for one single day having done it the way I have.
I just think it's completely irresponsible to tell a noob that if they ONLY buy slabs and don't even LOOK at coins that aren't slabbed (because all the "raw" coins are crap), they will forever be safe because the TPGs are gods and they are the only source to be trusted.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
THEN TEACH SOMEONE ELSE!!!
Jim
I usually require them to be well cooked.
Camelot
however, I have added this indivudal to my blocked list....
<< <i>So many people so completely miss the whole point...
Numismatics is a study. If you're not willing to study and learn - LEAVE. It's that simple. Cleaning, polishing, dipping, doctoring coins is all detectable, and without a whole heck of a lot of effort. Third party grading services are a marketing tool and shouldn't be used as a crutch by those unwilling to learn all there is to learn about what they collect. If you are serious about building a nice collection of coins, learn first---buy later. Above all, instead of paying so damn much attention to the holders, how about looking at the coins once in a while. You would be missing much more than half of the good coins if all you did was look at overpriced plastic.
"It would be slabbed if there wasn't something wrong with it" is about the most untrue statement I've ever heard around here, and I see a number of people spreading that falsehood to the new people. The statement isn't only completely untrue, it's downright unfair to the dealers who don't like the fees associated with having every coin slabbed, and it's not fair to the collectors who might just buy into such crap because they respect your opinions.
...
In other words, there ARE indeed plenty of good RAW deals out there. You just have to be educated enough to spot them. >>
You make some good points. I agree that the grading services are primarily marketing companies--the grading is secondary. I disagree strongly that cleaning, dipping, artificial toning, tooling are easily detectable. The amateur jobs can by spotted a mile away, however, the pro coin doctors are very good. Some of these altered coins get past the grading services every day and those are full time professionals that see thousands of coins every month and get the latest news on the subject. If the doctors can get coins past the top pros, they can get past most collectors and many dealers.
On the point of the thread, I think it is throwing the baby out with bath water to avoid raw coins completely because ONE person is cracking out problem coins and selling them raw without noting problems. I would wager more money is lost by collectors buying marginal slabbed coins that problem raw coins. Why? Because collectors are lulled into a false sense of security by the grade on the slab. A coin that barely makes the grade on the 10th resubmission is NOT worth a retail price for that higher grade, but a large percentage of these marginal coins find home in collections, often sold at full retail to unsuspecting collectors relying on the grade on the holder. There is a difference between that marginal coin and one that is solid for the grade and a difference between that and one that has a shot at the next grade up. It takes most collectors years of looking at large numbers of coins to discern these differences--it is by no means easy. With the current market pricing that difference is often substantial.
Be careful out there, there are pitfalls both buying raw and buying slabbed.
<< <i>I would wager more money is lost by collectors buying marginal slabbed coins that problem raw coins. Why? Because collectors are lulled into a false sense of security by the grade on the slab. >>
Exactly right since the vast majority of big money is spent on slabs. The TPG's have given the market this crutch that too many people use as a replacement for learning to grade themselves.
jom
Good point!
You're correct about the old-school Stack's!! I like their catalogs, but would be scared to death to bid on raw stuff. Unless I knew it was one of the big rarities and I knew for sure it didint NEED to be slabbed, but:
I remember recently they had a 1933 Eagle UNSLABBED, and I was suspicious. It LOOKED gem, and well - it sold but I later knew as well as everyone else - it was unslabbed for a reason. It was cleaned. Still sold for $400,000+ though.
My belief, and is only a belief: Unslabbed big stuff, IE a 1916-D dime that is MS, can't get slabbed for a reason. I am just not savvy enough to tell a good raw coin from one with problems....
let the buyer beware
sleezebay you gotta love it
<< <i>I think that having a general agreement that dishonesty (or at least deception) is rampant is a sad statement, and this perception IS harming the hobby and IS limiting the people entering it. >>
I totally agree. Why are so many people here going out of their way to defend the tactics of an obvious scam artist? Is it because they want to retain the option of doing the same if it's in their interest to do so? I find it hard to dismiss that suspicion.
Coin collecting is an optional activity. It's a hobby. It's supposed to be fun. Those of you who want to be elitist about it should take heed of a simple economic principle: Fewer new collectors means a smaller market for your coins when you want to sell them.
<< <i>
I totally agree. Why are so many people here going out of their way to defend the tactics of an obvious scam artist? Is it because they want to retain the option of doing the same if it's in their interest to do so? I find it hard to dismiss that suspicion.
Coin collecting is an optional activity. It's a hobby. It's supposed to be fun. Those of you who want to be elitist about it should take heed of a simple economic principle: Fewer new collectors means a smaller market for your coins when you want to sell them. >>
I am not trying to defend an obvious scam artist. There is NO SCAM GOING ON HERE!! The seller is auctioning off EXACTLY what he says he is...a circulated coin. It has some problems. Would it be nice if he described them rather than simply showing them in the picture? Sure, but how does that make it an "obvious" scam? Does he "puff" the coin in his description? A little...ie he calls it nice, but SO DOES EVERY SELLLER OF ANY PRODUCT IN ANY ARENA!!. (How many of you really believe that if you drink a particular brand of beer that the twins are going to show up at your party and crown you "the man"?) He makes no false claims as to its grade or value.
So where is the scam?
As for being "elitist" about the hobby simply because I believe that participants should bear the final responsibility for their own actions, well, I guess I am guilty--not only in this hobby, but in life itself. However, I don't find that particular belief to be elitist, but democratic. I, and nearly every other collector I have ever met in this hobby has been extremely willing to share any and all of his information and experience with anyone who wished to actually learn something about numismatics rather than simply collect pieces of plastic.
Jim
<< <i>
I totally agree. Why are so many people here going out of their way to defend the tactics of an obvious scam artist? Is it because they want to retain the option of doing the same if it's in their interest to do so? I find it hard to dismiss that suspicion. >>
I don't see myself as one of the people to whom you refer with this statement, but just in case I am mistaken and have misunderstood you--I am not defending anyone's actions. I am actually on the offense against stupid statements made by those who have been around for a while and need to grow up and realize their actions are watched by those trying to learn this hobby. Blanketing all coins not in slabs as being problem coins is immature and wrong. Furthermore, I'd rather not have anyone buy anything from me with the attitude that I'm selling raw JUST because I have problem coins and am trying to scam someone. I don't need that sort of customer base. I'd prefer to have the customers who are active in educating themselves who wouldn't think on such an immature level.
<< <i>Coin collecting is an optional activity. It's a hobby. It's supposed to be fun. Those of you who want to be elitist about it should take heed of a simple economic principle: Fewer new collectors means a smaller market for your coins when you want to sell them. >>
I, too, am guilty if being "elitest" involves educating one's self ad-nauseum on a subject before spending hard-earned money on that subject, especially when it is well known that there are a number of problems associated with buying in that subject that the collector needs to be very well aware of before making purchases. To lay the blame on the sellers and take it completely off of the buyer is irresponsible at best. Education is the key to this business/hobby, and self-education is better than any other kind. Hundreds of $1-$5 purchases should be made before the first $100 purchase. That's just the way it is for those who want a true education. Jump off the deep end and start tossing $100 bills around without any forethought and you're a great mark for a burn.
In all seroiusness, if the "new collectors" about whom you speak are all the type that would jump right out and blow wads of cash without any clue as to what they are doing, they aren't true collectors and won't last long in the market anyway, regardless of whether they get burned. They aren't interested in the coins, they are interested in money. Numismatics is too deep a subject for them as they will quickly figure out and move on to pork bellies or some other financial risk.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
Michael beat me to the obvious a few replies above, the rim filing was visible around eight o'clock in the obverse picture before the listing was removed. regardless of any other factors involved it was clearly visible. as jom so aptly posted, The TPG's have given the market this crutch that too many people use as a replacement for learning to grade themselves.
<< <i>To lay the blame on the sellers and take it completely off of the buyer is irresponsible at best. Education is the key to this business/hobby, and self-education is better than any other kind. >>
Do you apply that logic to the people who bought stock in Enron, Global Crossing or any other scandal-tainted company? Perhaps you do, but the legal system doesn't. The simple fact is that someday an activist prosecutor such as New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer is going to get wind of attitudes like the ones posted in this thread and score massive political points on the backs of the numismatic community, just as he and others did with Enron.
The behavior described by the OP is unethical, period, and also arguably illegal. The buyer's behavior is irrelevant to that determination. Such behavior would not be tolerated by consumers in any other retail business, and no other businessman worth the name would tell his potential customers to get lost if their knowledge doesn't meet his minimum standards.
You can sneer at investors and newbie collectors all you want, but you should also realize that their purchases help support the market for rare coins at current levels.
<< <i>The behavior described by the OP is unethical, period, and also arguably illegal. The buyer's behavior is irrelevant to that determination. Such behavior would not be tolerated by consumers in any other retail business, and no other businessman worth the name would tell his potential customers to get lost if their knowledge doesn't meet his minimum standards >>
Once again, how is it unethical to sell a raw coin? That is ALL that he was doing. Nowhere in his description did he call it anything other than exactly what it was--a raw, circulated coin. Did he describe all the bad points about his product? No, but contrary to your statement above, NEITHER DOES ANY OTHER SELLER OF ANY PRODUCT! If this is "unethical, period, and arguably illegal" then you better be ready to build a lot of new jails, because anyone who buys advertising on TV/radio/print is guilty.
Jim
<< <i>
<< <i>The behavior described by the OP is unethical, period, and also arguably illegal. The buyer's behavior is irrelevant to that determination. Such behavior would not be tolerated by consumers in any other retail business, and no other businessman worth the name would tell his potential customers to get lost if their knowledge doesn't meet his minimum standards >>
Once again, how is it unethical to sell a raw coin? That is ALL that he was doing. Nowhere in his description did he call it anything other than exactly what it was--a raw, circulated coin. Did he describe all the bad points about his product? No, but contrary to your statement above, NEITHER DOES ANY OTHER SELLER OF ANY PRODUCT! If this is "unethical, period, and arguably illegal" then you better be ready to build a lot of new jails, because anyone who buys advertising on TV/radio/print is guilty.
Jim >>
It's unethical to knowingly misrepresent something you're selling, even by omission. In some business arrangements (and in some states), that constitutes fraud as well and is illegal. If you really believe that his practice is as commonly acceptable as you said, then try it with some other product and see what happens. Or better yet, call the National Collectors Mint and ask them about how New York authorities viewed their advertising tactics -- you will find that people are indeed hauled into court and even prosecuted for false advertising a lot more frequently than you think.
The bottom line is that the seller's practices don't pass the smell test. And neither do a lot of others in the coin business. The attitude of "I paid my tuition, now you pay yours" when unsuspecting buyers are burned is a turnoff. It's small-minded, mean and not worthy of a great pursuit such as numismatics.
<< <i>The bottom line is that the seller's practices don't pass the smell test. And neither do a lot of others in the coin business. The attitude of "I paid my tuition, now you pay yours" when unsuspecting buyers are burned is a turnoff. It's small-minded, mean and not worthy of a great pursuit such as numismatics.
>>
For once...I actually agree with Newsy. Well said...
Chicolini: Mint? No, no, I no like a mint. Uh - what other flavor you got?
<< <i>
<< <i>To lay the blame on the sellers and take it completely off of the buyer is irresponsible at best. Education is the key to this business/hobby, and self-education is better than any other kind. >>
Do you apply that logic to the people who bought stock in Enron, Global Crossing or any other scandal-tainted company? >>
Actually I don't apply any logic to the stock market because I don't participate. Once again you take my statements completely out of context. I am NOT speaking of THIS instance in particular--since the beginning of my involvement in this thread I have been speaking of a GENERAL ATTITUDE taken here by a number of less than responsible people who want to preach their opinions as gospel. I was - and am - speaking on the topic of the horse crap statement that all decent coins are slabbed...that's all, nothing more than that. Quit trying to make my statement something it isn't.
<< <i>You can sneer at investors and newbie collectors all you want, but you should also realize that their purchases help support the market for rare coins at current levels. >>
Actually I find myself helping "newbie collectors" quite often, perhaps on a scale far greater than your own investment in similar endeavors. In fact this coming week I am going to be speaking to a local coin club nearly 300 miles from home and am driving up there to do so. I have travelled up to six hours away for the sole purpose of helping collectors set up their computers/scanners/cameras, and have volunteered my time without compensation in publishing newsletters, writing articles, and the like. I hardly "sneer" at anyone who wants to take the time to learn what they are doing. Conversely, I do all I can to help them including giving money I cannot afford to give.
I do, however, sneer at people who look at monetary wealth and experience on the same level, and think that throwing money around on coins is the answer to learning a hobby filled with experience, history, culture, and mystery. This is the vast majority of those who are "burned" on deals because they didn't take the time to learn what they are doing before throwing their savings account at it. They expect instant answers to questions, immediate gratification in biulding entire sets of beautiful coins in a week or less, and don't have the patience (and in some cases brains) to learn how to grade, detect alterations and counterfeits, properly valuate what they are buying, or anything else a responsible collector does before making large purchases (those large enough to hurt if wrongly done, regardless of the amount). None of these things are rocket science in nature, and any reasonably intelligent individual with a will to learn can do so in a few months. Problem is, far too many want to jump right in being a "player" throwing their wads of cash around trying to impress someone without doing any homework first.
Although I hate to see anyone burned in any deal and think it unethical for anyone selling anything to purposefully hide information that would make a difference in a transaction decision, these impatient people I describe are constantly setting themselves up to be disgruntled and to leave the hobby shortly after entering with a bad taste in their mouths because they are unwilling to listen to experience. Then for those who do, they come here to see many people with thousands of posts here discussing how buying slabbed coins is the only safe way to buy coins. Damned if you do...that attitude is complete horse crap (as stated before) because it gives an incorrect impression to very impressionable collectors. That's my complaint, and that's why I am posting in this thread - not to "defend the tactics of an obvious scam artist."
Actually, as it were, I read the title of the thread and wanted to see what was inside. I read the original post and only made it half way through the replies before becoming insensed at the general attitude..."yeah, you should only buy slabbed coins - that's the only way to be safe."
How about knowing what you're doing before doing it? Is that not a good measure to take? If people knew what they were doing before "investing" in valuable coins, the slabs wouldn't make a hill of beans difference.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
"Numismatics is a study. If you're not willing to study and learn - LEAVE. It's that simple. Cleaning, polishing, dipping, doctoring coins is all detectable, and without a whole heck of a lot of effort. Third party grading services are a marketing tool and shouldn't be used as a crutch by those unwilling to learn all there is to learn about what they collect."
Slabbing is a very valuable tool if you want to buy coins online off pictures from dealers in countries where cleaning coins is perfectly acceptable and the coins simply aren't available on a sight-seen basis. It's very valuable when you buy coins that are so heavily counterfeited the fakes outnumber the real ones, and many are professionally done. What are you going to do, bring a scale with you to every coin show and weigh every coin? Or perhaps a kit to do onsite specific gravity tests?
Slabbing makes an international market in coins possible. You can study coins from now until doomsday, but you can't interpret information from a picture if the information isn't there and you can't hold the coin. Then you're forced to trust someone, whether it's the dealer's reputation, or the slabbing company's or your own hunch. What's the difference? It's still a risk, even if it's a calculated one.
I admire your willingness to help new collectors. But I am disgusted by the attitude of those who believe new collectors have to learn the hard way because some of us got burned once. That's not just mean, it's self-defeating.
There's a dealer in my area who is widely reputed to be a strong buyer of choice AU sliders such as Morgan dollars or Walkers so he can sell them as BU. The ANA kicked him out because his customer service practices ran afoul of their rules. Yet this dealer is still one of the largest advertisers in the numismatic press, which has not lifted a finger to even attempt anything remotely resembling journalism or consumer advocacy in this case. What does that say about the hobby? Why doesn't anyone seem to care whether people are being turned off from the hobby after being promised one thing and getting much less?
<< <i>
There's a dealer in my area who is widely reputed to be a strong buyer of choice AU sliders such as Morgan dollars or Walkers so he can sell them as BU. The ANA kicked him out because his customer service practices ran afoul of their rules. Yet this dealer is still one of the largest advertisers in the numismatic press, which has not lifted a finger to even attempt anything remotely resembling journalism or consumer advocacy in this case. What does that say about the hobby? Why doesn't anyone seem to care whether people are being turned off from the hobby after being promised one thing and getting much less? >>
Does he sell these coins from coast to coast?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Exactly! Very well worded.
Newsman stated it far better than I could.
<< <i>Slabbing makes an international market in coins possible. You can study coins from now until doomsday, but you can't interpret information from a picture if the information isn't there and you can't hold the coin. Then you're forced to trust someone, whether it's the dealer's reputation, or the slabbing company's or your own hunch. What's the difference? It's still a risk, even if it's a calculated one. >>
Although it may be true that buying slabbed coins online is a wiser choice it is still not acceptable for people to state that any coin "worth slabbing is already slabbed" and for the same people to pass those rash assumptions on to new collectors.
The best way to learn the hobby and the reputation of any dealer is to ease into it with lower dollar purchases to see if the dealer is reputable, and only if completely satisfied with the purchases and customer relations of the dealer to move into bigger more expensive purchases. It not only gives the collector more time and education in studying the coins purchased, but also gets them set for making the larger purchases having experience and knowledge under their belt.
I never said, and do not condone the attitude that everyone should get burned to learn--I never have because I took it slowly and intelligently throughout the 30 years I've collected. I started with pocket change, moved to low premium coins, and collected those for over 20 years before making larger purchases. I know exactly what I'm getting when I make a purchase and will not purchase if I don't know exactly what I'm getting. I insisted on doing it this way because it was the only way of handling the process of learning without having to take lumps and learn the hard way. Ergo, I teach this way of learning the market because it worked for me, works for many others, and nearly all the people I know who have been burned (some of them time and time again) are the type that do not follow such a mantra.
ANYONE with patience and a noodle between their ears can learn to grade by using pocket change. They can learn varieties, die varieties, errors, and other oddities--what's common and what's not--by using pocket change. They can learn what cleaned coins are and learn what cleaning does to the coins using pocket change. They can "graduate" to premium value purchases of $5-$50 (whatever the comfort level is) and take it slowly learning in that area. At whatever pace a person chooses, they alone should know when they are ready for a larger purchase. THIS is the right way to do it. Take this advice and ask questions whenever possible or necessary. That's what this place should be used for--not to tell people to only buy slabbed coins because everything else is suspitious, worthless junk.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
an old fishing axiom comes to mind which has reworded relevance to how the hobby works with certified coins; collecting based on the TPG's opinions breeds dependence and skepticism, collecting based on your own opinion breeds independence and confidence.
<< <i>I don't buy raw coins anymore. But i have seen many posts that express regret that only older men seem to have coin collecting as a hobby. Certainly it is in the interest of ALL collectors to try to ensure that "ripping off" is kept to a minimum. In the particular case above, forget ethics for the moment. Lets look at what would happen in a court of law with all the facts and parties present. If a merchant was sued, and all the facts came out, It would be clear that the merchant was in possession of material facts which he deliberatly covered up. If he did not disclose all the facts he knew about the "net grade" of this coin, and its previous cleaning he would lose the case. Plus, in this case since he cracked it out, solely to deceive naive buyers he would be convicted of deliberate FRAUD! I think it is very telling that some of the posters on this board would take any other position that "this is ok" or "let buyer beware". This is a very shortsighted and imho immoral view of the facts presented here. >>
No, I don't think that deliberate FRAUD is okay. I simply don't think that this particular instance qualifies.
What material facts did he cover up? The fact that it had once been slabbed? He placed it for sale as exactly what it currently is--a raw circulated coin.
I have several fomerly slabbed coins in my collection. If and when my heirs sell them it will be totally inmaterial to that future sale that once upon a time they were encased in plastic.
There are many many cases of fraud daily on Ebay--and elsewhere. Knowingly calling circulated coins MS as practiced by ALL of the TGP's is much more fraudulant and in the end much more damaging to the hobby than anything this seller has done.
Jim
<< <i>What material facts did he cover up? >>
I'll skip the "cleaning" part of what he covered up and go straight to "rim filing" - I believe that is generally an objective and factual determination, as well as a material one to most any collector.
Jim
I'll skip the "cleaning" part of what he covered up and go straight to "rim filing" - I believe that is generally an objective and factual determination, as well as a material one to most any collector.
-------------------------
Mark Feld
Well said Mark. If anyone has any doubt that this is unqualified fraud, ask any lawyer qualified in interstate commerce. I am not, but i have taken a few law courses.... it is FRAUD!!!! anyone who thinks it isnt is rationalizing, or does not understand the law...
<< <i>Which was discernable as at least a major rim ding in the pic. Once again, a little time trying to find out what one was bidding on prior to placing that bid would have sufficed. >>
"Discernable as at least a major rim ding" is very different from a known rim filing. And, if a seller is going to intentionally omit information about things like that, how is one to "find out what one was bidding on prior to placing that bid"?
You appear to be placing an unfair and impossible burden upon an internet bidder, and letting the seller off completely. The fact that a bidder is not fully informed or highly knowledgeable, does not excuse a seller such as the one being discussed in this thread.
I have never stated that the seller in this particular case is totally blameless. I merely disagree with the idea that the prospective buyer has no responsiblity for his own actions.
Jim
<< <i>A question to the seller as to the severity of the problem would have sufficed... >>
Jim, not if the seller is going to intentionally withhold information, as it appears this seller does. All that might accomplish is to make a potential return easier. I do agree, however, that buyers should be responsible in their actions/behavior.
All the opinions expressed by me in this thread are just exactly that opinions. Take them for what you feel they are worth...just as I accept yours.
Jim
What if the coin was cracked, bought by someone on eBay (without knowing) who submitted it to PCGS or NGC (or back to Anacs for that matter) and it slabbed with no problem. It would now be in a no problem PCGS holder. Would most coin collectors still have a problem with it?
My point being is I can tell you countless coins that were MS that went PF, countless more that were slabbed and then went AT on crackout/regrade, and even countless more that were AT and then got slabbed on subsequent gradings. Just because the coin was in a problem Anacs holder doesn't mean it is a problem coin, does it? And just because the coin is in a no problem PCGS holder doesn't mean it has no problems, does it?
My point is buy the coin and not the holder...and if you buy quasi-sight-unseen (e.g. eBay), it is probably a good idea to know the seller.
BTW -- DISCLAIMER: I am not taking a position on whether anything right or wrong has transpired nor am I defending anyone's actions. I'm simply making an observation