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PCGS vs NGC, money making opportunity
taxbuster1040
Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
I am a bit of a lurker here but i have decided to come out of hiding. I do not conisder myself an expert grader as some of you are, but i have a question regarding a money making opportunity, or what seems one. I buy from Heritage auctions on a regular basis. Over and over again, i have seen a difference in price in what some(not all) of the pcgs coins sell for over the Ngc coins. This is at the ms-62 to ms-67 level. I have magnified these images, but in many of the cases it looks to me that the Ngc coin is as good if not better than the Pcgs coin. Yet in some cases the final selling price for the same grade can be 50% less. Have any of you tried buying an Ngc coin, breaking it out, and submitting it to pcgs, and then sell it at auction for the much higher price? Or is there something i am missing here? BTW, at times it seems this is also true for Anacs coins selling too cheap as well. If you have done this, how many of you have actually suceeded at this money making endeavor? Depending on the reponse here, i may consider this as a new business venture!
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<< <i>Have any of you tried buying an Ngc coin, breaking it out, and submitting it to pcgs, and then sell it at auction for the much higher price? >>
Novel concept. I'm surprised nobody has thought of it before.
Russ, NCNE
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Cracking coins? No one here cracks coins... >>
I hear Jimmy cracks coins.
Russ, NCNE
and I don't care.
Seriously you would need to be an expert grader to accomplish what you suggest. We have all tried it. I did score crossing some NGC MS 67 FS Jefferson nickels. I also went 0 for 10 on MS 67 FB Mercury dimes....
There are two problems with the concept. One is that everybody and his brother is trying it - constantly. The other is that the ability to snatch NGC coins and get them in to PCGS holders is more than just knowing how to grade - it's knowing how PCGS grades across each series. That takes a LOT of submitting experience.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>but in many of the cases it looks to me that the Ngc coin is as good if not better than the Pcgs coin >>
In many cases that is absolutely true. Due to the imperfections/inaccuracies and inconsistencies in grading, however, there is no guarantee that those NGC coins will end up receiving the same grades at PCGS or even at NGC, if graded there again.
I hope you are not "grading" or purchasing, just from images - that, too, is often a losing proposition.
<< <i>
<< <i>Cracking coins? No one here cracks coins... >>
I hear Jimmy cracks coins.
Russ, NCNE >>
You're right! I do. (But I DO care.
Jim
What kinda attitude is that ?
It is a good and helpful attitude. I'm just trying to finish the chorus here.
When I was young I used to wait
On master and hand him his plate
Pass him the bottle when he got dry
And brush away the blue-tail fly
Chorus
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Jimmy crack corn, and I don't care
Jimmy crack corn, and I don't care
Jimmy crack corn, and I don't care
My master's gone away
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
In my area of collecting, I have to know how to get the technical grade right and also whether a coin will cameo or deep cameo. Although I have won some, I have also lost many. The good news is that I have a very good idea on how PCGS & NGC will grade coins. I am not an expert, but now knowledgeable enough to know that I would never be able to play the crackout game for a living. In the meantime, I will keep playing the game - for me it is fun and part of the hobby.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
WS
first with images it is hard to tell anything even if you got the best images and with heritage they are decent--okie somewhat photos most of the time
but you really need to see the coins in hand sight seen all together to make a comparison of value!!
and with heritage if there were for the most part any truly pq monster killer graded and eye appeal ngc coins they would not be in a heritage auction bringing less than a compropable pcgs coin
If you know the series and how they each grade them, it's still a gambit. And yes, we all
do it; have done it. Mostly it doesn't work.
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He noted in his first post to the thread that he was a lurker, many people don't spend much time here, and he asked a serious question. The fact that his idea wasn't a new one, didn't call for the type of treatment he received.
Michael said...
"and with heritage if there were for the most part any truly pq monster killer graded and eye appeal ngc coins they would not be in a heritage auction bringing less than a compropable pcgs coin"...
yet the price differences persist at heritage on a regular basis across many different years, and types of coins.
Then if this is true than most of you must believe that buying coins with pcgs is the way to go, because the NGC coins are being graded too loosely, thats why they are selling at consitently lower prices..... Yet that doesnt jive with the way coin collectors on this board seem to imply that ngc grades pretty much consistent with pcgs.... If money talks, then Pcgs is the only way to go.... or am i missing something?
My coins to come back - VG-8!!!
No upgrades and I would wonder why?
So now I don't even try.
Jimmy crack coin and I don't care.
Jimmy crack coin and I don't care
Jimmy crack coin and I don't care
It's all bodybags today.
I was thinking of purchasing and crossing over to PCGS this fine example of a 1944 MS70 graded quarter?
Crossover candidate?
No. For some series I am familiar with, like superb proof Jefferson Nickels, PCGS is slightly tougher. There are fewer coins at the very highest grades.
<< <i>Yet that doesnt jive with the way coin collectors on this board seem to imply that ngc grades pretty much consistent with pcgs.... >>
That really is very series dependent. In some series NGC is consistently looser than PCGS. Lincoln Cents, for example. It also has to do with the era when a coin was graded. In cameos and deep cameos, NGC was loose as hell for a while and many of their own coins would not receive the designation if they were graded by them today.
As of late, NGC has become much tighter, but they still have a rep to deal with when it comes to realized prices in the marketplace.
It also might be edifying to delineate between internet only auctions and floor auctions when looking at realized prices. There are plenty of examples of NGC coins actually bringing more money than the PCGS coin when the buyers have a chance to view them in-hand.
Russ, NCNE
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Unless you have a very good eye for coins (in hand i might add) you are going to get your head handed to you in the x over game !
Proof
<< <i>Then if this is true than most of you must believe that buying coins with pcgs is the way to go, because the NGC coins are being graded too loosely, thats why they are selling at consitently lower prices >>
There are many great coins in both PCGS and NGC holders. There are also many (shall we say) not so great ones in both company's holders.
I have seen the identical coin sell at different times (in an NGC holder and then later in a PCGS holder) for greatly different amounts, because of a bias for the PCGS holder/plastic, due to things such as preferences among registry Set collectors, etc. Identical coin, different holders, different prices. That certainly doesn't show that NGC graded the coin more loosely/liberally.
A PCGS coin will often bring more than an NGC coin when you sell it. But, the PCGS coin will also COST you more than the NGC coin when you buy it. So, you can do as well or better with an NGC coin, even if it "sells" for less.
I love it when I can buy a nice NGC coin for a discount from what the same coin would bring in a PCGS holder, whether I choose to try to get it into a PCGS holder or not.
<< <i>I love it when I can buy a nice NGC coin for a discount from what the same coin would bring in a PCGS holder, >>
Or ANACS, for that matter.
1- It's difficult enough to grade coins accurately, in person. It is even moreso from a picture. It is even moreso from a Heritage picture, as good as the resolution is, they do so many coins their pictures are pretty much conveyer-belt and they don't spend a lot of time on each individual coin to get the pictures accurate to that coin.
2- When you consign to Heritage, there is a 15% buyers fee and a 15% sellers fee. So as a seller you only recieve 70% of what the buyer is willing to pay. Pardon my slam on Heritage but that sucks wind and pretty much guarantees that only low-end for the grade coins are placed into their auctions. There are of course exceptions but their auctions are pretty heavily weighted toward the low end and unless you go in person to view the lots or have a representative there to do so for you, I would not be a bidder. High-end coins are generally placed on memo with dealers or placed privately, etc rather than being dumped into a Heritage auction.
3- If you crack a coin and send it to the same grading service, frequently you will recieve a different grade than it was previously. Sometimes higher, sometimes lower. Sending it to a different grading service and becomes even more of a crapshoot.
4- As others have stated, there are many, many people out there constantly combing through the available population of coins doing the same thing that you are proposing. If you do find a bonafide upgrade candidate, you better be prepared to pay a premium for such a coin as others do because chances are, there will be others after it at the same time. Since you propose that you will be "grading" from pictures, I would sincerely urge you to not be willing to pay a premium for any so-called upgrade candidate, especially as you have conceded that you are not as good a grader as many out there.
EDITED to add:
<< <i>When you consign to Heritage, there is a 15% buyers fee and a 15% sellers fee >>
Many consignors pay 0% sellers fee, and if the consignment warrants, even receive more than 100% of hammer.
<< <i>Many consignors... >>
They don't like everybody as much as you, Mark...
<< <i>They don't like everybody as much as you, Mark
They probably liked me better before I started consulting for ANR.