"We paid $80 for the coin, which quickly sold to a variety collector for $2,000!"

RYK · August 2, 2005 7:57PM

I read this on a dealer's website. How does this statement, if at all, influence your interest to buy/sell coins from/to this dealer?

What if a collector (ie. Russ or MadMarty) made a similar claim? Is there a double standard?

291fifth · August 2, 2005 8:10PM

This is the way money is made in coins. It's a good example of why knowledgeable collectors shouldn't die with their collections, especially when those collections contain specialized material.

kranky · August 2, 2005 8:50PM

It makes a big difference where the coin came from. Was it bought on the bourse from a dealer's case? Or from a collector? I know we don't know the whole story (unless the dealer chooses to elaborate).

I guess there is a double standard in my mind. A dealer has the responsibility for knowing his business, and if the dealer chooses not to look for varieties in his own inventory, that's his/her choice. On the other hand if a collector offers a coin to a dealer and asks what it's worth, and the dealer recognizes it is a rare variety, I expect the dealer to make a fair offer. Dealers are certainly entitled to earn a living but I think it's wrong to pay 5% of retail to someone just because the person falls for it.

gamer1958 · August 2, 2005 9:08PM

We need to know more, honestly--was the coin purchased raw for $80 and later got an unexpectedly high grade? OK, then--the dealer took a shot on the coin and it scored. Yet, I'd expect him/her to maybe pass on some of that good fortune to his customers...and, that still has a possibility if the actual value of the coin is more than $2000. As for the person that dumped it, well, if this one of those little ole' lady stories, then shame on the dealer...

dorkkarl · August 2, 2005 9:19PM

tells me that's a sharp dealer who knows coins. i'd put him on my list of potential dealers to buy from.

K S

PerryHall · August 2, 2005 9:23PM

It was probably bought from an old lady who got it from her late husband's coin collection. It was the "S-VDB" variety of the 1909 Lincoln cent.

mirabela · August 2, 2005 9:39PM

What was the context? On its own, it could be one of those David Feigenbaum stories that probably didn't start with the intentional screwing of a widow. Then again, it might have. Before I could judge, I'd need to know whether the dealer knew it was a rare variety when he paid $80 for it. Hasn't it ever happened to you that you bought a new coin and only when you were studying it at your leisure later on did you discover the RPM, RPD, identifying die crack, or whatever? I know it has happened to me. Could that be what happened here?

From the comments posted alone, I can't be sure what happened. That said, I agree that it seems like a dumb thing to brag about, as it at least invites suspicion.

kranky · August 2, 2005 9:46PM

I think in this particular case the dealer knew it was a rare variety when he bought it for $80. Is that what you inferred, RYK?

RYK · August 2, 2005 10:03PM

I do not know the context. The quote was ripped right from a dealer's website. My immediate thought was of the old widow getting ripped. My second thought was of Russ cherrypicking a weekend warrior or storefront dealer.

That said, I agree the it seems like a dumb thing to brag about, as it at least invites suspicion.

That was my point.

lathmach · August 2, 2005 10:08PM

It's dumb for a dealer to brag about making a rip on their website.
That's got to stop a lot of people from having any dealings with them.

Ray

OKbustchaser · August 2, 2005 10:10PM

I have never understood why if a dealer makes a buy like this then he is cast into the firey pit by these boards, but if a "so-called" collector does then he got a rip. (If he is only buying to flip then he is NOT collecting, he is dealing!) Bottom line, who cares who bought from whom? The orginal seller got what it was worth TO HIM/HER!. If it had been worth more to him/her, it would not have been sold. It makes no difference whether or not the dealer knows it was a rare variety.

For example, I have several R-5 to R-6 bust die varieties worth large multiples over common in my collection. After I die, if my heirs decide that to them my collection is only worth scrap silver prices (and sell for that amount) what difference does it make to them what amount of profit the dealer then makes? They got their price--the dealer got his! Everyone wins.

RYK · August 2, 2005 10:12PM

It's a good example of why knowledgeable collectors shouldn't die with their collections, especially when those collections contain specialized material.

Excellent point, and I will do my best not to. Actually, my wife knows who to call if such a circumstance arrives. I am under 40 (barely), so hopefully we will not have to worry about for a couple of years.

BAJJERFAN · August 2, 2005 10:26PM

Why don't you LINKY the website!

Longacre · August 2, 2005 10:31PM

I don't think it really should be put on the dealer's website because, as someone above referenced, it just raises suspicions. As a consumer, I would not be positively influenced to buy from that dealer, because if I am ever selling, I will always wonder if I am getting screwed or not.

keets · August 2, 2005 10:34PM

pride being one of the seven deadly sins, it'll eventually bite anyone----dealer or collector----in the ass who tends to brag. the truth is that this type of thing is extremely more common that we'd think with both dealers and collectors. some of us are up front and we "cherrypick" while others confess only to being "more knowledgeable" than the other guy. the ol' double standard is a funny thing, also. if you truly believe that a fair price and a fair admission of what you know should be made at all times, isn't it logical that there should be no distinction made between a widow and a coin dealer?? if you're looking at a coin you think(read: know) is undergraded shouldn't you inform the seller??

honesty is a laudable commodity but realistically we should all be labeled as dishonest at certain times by the high standard some would hold us to. just to set the record straight, i cherrypick. that's why i look at so many coins before i make a purchase. i feel no guilt.

Heywood · August 2, 2005 10:44PM

I think I recently visited that site, because I too thought that that was an odd thing to brag about.

A different take- We ripped of the variety collector too! If we cared about our customers, we would have given him a better deal and still made a bunch of money.

LincolnCentMan · August 2, 2005 10:48PM

I wouldnt let this influance my buying from the dealer. I dont know the full circumstances. I bought a raw coin FROM A DEALER for $45. I sent it to PCGS and it's now worth over 4K. I feel it was the dealer who sold it to me's responcibility to price it. If he prices it to low, then I get the benifit. I do take a different point of view on coins bought from the "ignorant." aka... someone says, "Hey I've got this coin that my husband owned before he died." On those, I feel it is my responcibility to pay a % of what I comfortibably feel I can sell the coin for. The truth of the mater is that I tell those type of people, before I even look at a coin, that I'm not interested in buying; that I'd tell them what it's "worth" so they'll know they're getting accurate information.

What if a collector (ie. Russ or MadMarty) made a similar claim? Is there a double standard?

It all goes back to who you're buying it from. If you're buying form a dealer, no problem. If you're buying from the unsuspecting, how do you sleep at night?

David

ER · August 2, 2005 10:50PM

<< It makes a big difference where the coin came from. Was it bought on the bourse from a dealer's case? Or from a collector? I know we don't know the whole story (unless the dealer chooses to elaborate).

I guess there is a double standard in my mind. A dealer has the responsibility for knowing his business, and if the dealer chooses not to look for varieties in his own inventory, that's his/her choice. On the other hand if a collector offers a coin to a dealer and asks what it's worth, and the dealer recognizes it is a rare variety, I expect the dealer to make a fair offer. Dealers are certainly entitled to earn a living but I think it's wrong to pay 5% of retail to someone just because the person falls for it. >>

LincolnCentMan · August 2, 2005 10:52PM

It's a good example of why knowledgeable collectors shouldn't die with their collections,

Sometimes, death is unexpected. I have a code on the back of my slabs that tells what I paid for it and when I bought it. My wife knows the code, I quiz her on it every once in a while. She know's how to liquiate if I become fertalizer.

David

cladking · August 2, 2005 11:56PM

I'd never approve of paying widows a tiny fraction of what something is worth, but there
are a million ways to pay less than something is worth in this hobby. It's far easier to pay
too little than sell for too much and the latter is more likely to be unethical anyway. So the
honest dealer or collector always remembers whom he "owes" and throws some business
his way. Everyone's happy and everyone should be trying to learn how not to sell too cheap.

MikeInFL · August 3, 2005 2:38AM

<< I read this on a dealer's website. How does this statement, if at all, influence your interest to buy/sell coins from/to this dealer?

What if a collector (ie. Russ or MadMarty) made a similar claim? Is there a double standard? >>

There is no difference.

The dealer is not too bright for admitting such a thing.

No offense, but this is the exact reason I'll never purchase a Kennedy from Russ, either.

Take care...Mike

mgoodm3 · August 3, 2005 3:51AM

It's all in who you're ripping. Russ ripping a dealer for a variety is fine because the dealer could have the same info he does. Ripping an old lady who doesn't know any better is wrong. Advertising it on the website leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Myqqy · August 3, 2005 5:35AM

That said, I agree the it seems like a dumb thing to brag about, as it at least invites suspicion.

Agreed. And I think they could have given the variety collector a little discount too...

BAJJERFAN · August 3, 2005 5:44AM

<< That said, I agree the it seems like a dumb thing to brag about, as it at least invites suspicion. >>

Yup; tis better to remain silent and thought an arsehole, than to speak and remove all doubt.

goose3 · August 3, 2005 6:37AM

I knew I had seen this statement elsewhere too.

It was in Longacre's Ledger 9/04.

I'm not sure what all the site says but when I read it in the Ledger I read it as though he cherrypicked the coin while walking the bourse.

If that's the case, what's the big deal? People on here do it all the time and brag.

Now if it was done to an unsuspecting collector offering the coin for sale or offering it for an opinion.......possibly a different story.

Conder101 · August 3, 2005 1:18PM

Do we know all of the details of the dealers purchase of the coin? Is it possible they didn't know it was a rare variety when they bought it? Case in point would be the recent story about the 1794 starred reverse cent that sold recently. They bought it as just a common scudzy 1794 cent. Not it wasn't sold quickly, but only because no one wanted to bother to do the attribution work. But when it was identified it was snatched up for over six grand. Not as big a rip but one day back in 1989 I came into the shop where I was working and noticed that the owner had bought some foreign currency and MPC's while I was out for 50 cents to a couple dollars each and had put them out in a book at a modest mark up. I pulled out the $10 and $20 MPC's and upped the prices to three figures. The owner thought I was nuts! But he took them to a show that weekend and they did not come back Monday morning, and he didn't discount them much either. He was quite shocked because he had no idea they were worth anything.

morgannut2 · August 3, 2005 1:34PM

What if the coin was in a big group lot at a Bowers and Merena Auction?? If the dealer later found that it was a rare variety, it makes an interesting story. But unless he's trying to promote the idea of marketing peoples' raw collections, I don't see any purpose to his bragging.

Dog97 · August 3, 2005 1:40PM

When I was an electrical contractor I used to wave a light switch in my homeowners face and say "This switch cost me 50¢ but I'm going to charge you $50 to install it."
Wondered why my business flopped.

BAJJERFAN · August 3, 2005 1:44PM

Irregardless of how the dealer acquired the coin it is in poor taste to brag about your big rip in such fashion UNLESS you are advertising your services for hire. If you are a tort lawyer then of course you want to advertise your big successes but unless your are in the coin biz to score the big RIPS I can't fathom why a dealer would put such a statement on his website.

zenny · August 3, 2005 1:48PM

<< 
A different take- We ripped of the variety collector too! If we cared about our customers, we would have given him a better deal and still made a bunch of money. >>

Unless, of course, they gave the variety collector a good deal on a $3k coin..............

lordmarcovan · August 3, 2005 1:50PM

Why does that quote sound familiar?

Bochiman · August 3, 2005 2:32PM

<< Irregardless of how the dealer acquired the coin it is in poor taste to brag about your big rip in such fashion UNLESS you are advertising your services for hire. If you are a tort lawyer then of course you want to advertise your big successes but unless your are in the coin biz to score the big RIPS I can't fathom why a dealer would put such a statement on his website. >>

Tom hit my thoughts right on the head with this.
If a dealer does this, from a non-dealer, they are scum.
If they do it from another dealer, they are doing business.
If they feel they have to brag about it, well, I don't really want to do business with them as it appears they are out to screw people.

Conder101 · August 4, 2005 10:49AM

<< Tom hit my thoughts right on the head with this.
If a dealer does this, from a non-dealer, they are scum.
If they do it from another dealer, they are doing business.
If they feel they have to brag about it, well, I don't really want to do business with them as it appears they are out to screw people. >>

And if we do it to a dealer then we've made a great cherrypick and everyone congratulates us.

BAJJERFAN · August 4, 2005 11:44AM

<< And if we do it to a dealer then we've made a great cherrypick and everyone congratulates us. >>

Well some of us think its neat to rip a dealer, but not all of us do.

Russ · August 5, 2005 1:18AM

<< << I read this on a dealer's website. How does this statement, if at all, influence your interest to buy/sell coins from/to this dealer?

What if a collector (ie. Russ or MadMarty) made a similar claim? Is there a double standard? >>

There is no difference.

The dealer is not too bright for admitting such a thing.

No offense, but this is the exact reason I'll never purchase a Kennedy from Russ, either. >>

I guess I better just fold up shop.

<< It makes a big difference where the coin came from. Was it bought on the bourse from a dealer's case? Or from a collector? >>

This is the crux of the matter. If the dealer ripped another dealer, more power to him since they're on the same playing field. If the dealer ripped some widow, he's a slimeball.

Russ, NCNE

RYK · August 5, 2005 1:27AM

The dealer has contacted me and confirmed that the coin was bought on the bourse from another dealer.

If the dealer ripped another dealer, more power to him since they're on the same playing field.

Should we invite the dealer-seller, the source for this coin, and ask what he/she thinks about it?

I still do not think it is the kind of statement that makes one look good in the eyes of a potential customer. It makes me think that the price of the coins being sold to me might be considerably higher than its value and the price I will get if/when I attempt to sell the coin.

Russ · August 5, 2005 1:45AM

<< Should we invite the dealer-seller, the source for this coin, and ask what he/she thinks about it? >>

If he's a grownup, he'd congratulate the dealer who cherrypicked him.

<< I still do not think it is the kind of statement that makes one look good in the eyes of a potential customer. >>

In the context of a professional dealer doing so, I agree completely.

Russ, NCNE

kranky · August 5, 2005 1:50AM

<< I still do not think it is the kind of statement that makes one look good in the eyes of a potential customer. It makes me think that the price of the coins being sold to me might be considerably higher than its value and the price I will get if/when I attempt to sell the coin. >>

Seems like an apples-and-oranges thing. Clearly the piece in question was a desirable variety that the seller didn't recognize. So it was essentially bought as one thing and sold as another. I wouldn't extrapolate that to think that the current owner won't get fair value when he/she decides to part with it down the road.

Nysoto · August 5, 2005 3:03AM

From the PNG codes of ethics: "To refrain from any of the following in dealing with non-professional customers:
buying or selling at unreasonable prices.
intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin."

The ANA has a code of ethics which I could not find.

There is an implied double standard with PNG, but we all know how strictly the ANA and PNG ethic codes are enforced

If I cherry-pick a dealer, he is selling for a price which is acceptable to him, to the best of his knowledge.

If a widow picks up a copy of her husband's Numismatist and responds to an ad stating "we will pay you the highest prices for your coins with immediate cash", the dealer would be giving a fraudulent offer if it was 5% of the value of a rare coin.

Dealers can be everything from slimeballs to moderately honest in the coin hobby/industry, ethics is up to the individual and cannot be effectively enforced.

I have two auctions firms listed in our will for my wife to call for my 1794-1807 U.S. stuff when I croak.

typo edit

RYK · August 5, 2005 3:03AM

<>

<<In the context of a professional dealer doing so, I agree completely.>>

As did the dealer. He has deleted the anecdote from his website bio.

PerryHall · August 5, 2005 4:20AM

Who is the dealer? If you don't want to say who he is here, a PM would be appeciated.

"We paid $80 for the coin, which quickly sold to a variety collector for $2,000!"

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&quot;We paid $80 for the coin, which quickly sold to a variety collector for $2,000!&quot;

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"We paid $80 for the coin, which quickly sold to a variety collector for $2,000!"