I just lost faith in a dealer.

python · August 3, 2005 7:39AM

I bought a Barber half from a reputable dealer a couple months a go. I found some green spots on the high points
of the eagle and thought it might be PVC. I took it in to another dealer to get a second opinion and he confirmed
it but called it " an acceptable level ". I contacted the dealer I bought it from and told him I wanted a refund.
I returned it and got my refund, but today I look on his website and he has added the coin to his inventory with
no mention of the PVC on the reverse.

I've attached a scan of the coin so you can see the spots. Do you
think this is honest or should he at least mention the problem?

MikeInFL · August 3, 2005 7:44AM

Errors by omission are a grey area in the coin world, IMHO.

Personally, I would label a coin as a problem, but then again I'm not an unscrupulous coin dealer.

Russ · August 3, 2005 7:45AM

<< but today I look on his website and he has added the coin to his inventory with
no mention of the PVC on the reverse >>

Light PVC, (which sounds like this case), is easily removed with acetone. Maybe he did so.

Russ, NCNE

orie · August 3, 2005 7:48AM

He should of had a dealer friend sell it. That's the way it's done around here.
Better still, have it slabbed NGC and sell it on ebay. That would be a first.
Green spots?

greghansen · August 3, 2005 7:53AM

Yea, I would have splashed that around in a bit of acetone and that would have been the end of tha problem.

coinguy1 · August 3, 2005 7:55AM

Python, tell the dealer how you feel.

python · August 3, 2005 8:05AM

<< 

<< but today I look on his website and he has added the coin to his inventory with
no mention of the PVC on the reverse >>

Light PVC, (which sounds like this case), is easily removed with acetone. Maybe he did so.

Russ, NCNE >>

Russ, I don't believe that's the case. The scan he's using to sell the coin still shows the spots.

python · August 3, 2005 8:15AM

<< Python, tell the dealer how you feel. >>

Mark, I don't see the point. I'll just never do business with him again.

ksteelheader · August 3, 2005 8:18AM

<< 

<< Python, tell the dealer how you feel. >>

Mark, I don't see the point. I'll just never do business with him again. >>

Then why even tell us the problem in the first place??

coinguy1 · August 3, 2005 8:18AM

<< Python, tell the dealer how you feel. >>

<<Mark, I don't see the point. I'll just never do business with him again>>

I see more to be gained by telling him, than by telling us, especially if you are not revealing his identity.

dthigpen · August 3, 2005 8:19AM

Mark is right. (As usual)

python · August 3, 2005 8:25AM

<< << Python, tell the dealer how you feel. >>

<<Mark, I don't see the point. I'll just never do business with him again>>

I see more to be gained by telling him, than by telling us, especially if you are not revealing his identity.

>>

Mark, I did let him know of the problem when I returned it. I told him of the other dealers opinion and sent him a scan of the spots. The reason I posted this was to ask for opinions on this practice.

dthigpen · August 3, 2005 8:27AM

If he removed the active PVC from the reverse and the coin looks the same, is there really a problem? I have coins in MS66 slabs that I've cleaned minor active PVC off in the past.

ajaan · August 3, 2005 8:32AM

If I'm not mistaken, the coin is in a PCGS holder so the dealer couldn't have removed the spot before listing the coin on his website. Correct me if I am wrong python.

lordmarcovan · August 3, 2005 8:35AM

I would acetone the coin. He might've missed that PVC, or not recognized it as such. Give 'im the benefit of the doubt.

Edit: never mind. I just read your real question, sorry.

python · August 3, 2005 8:44AM

<< If I'm not mistaken, the coin is in a PCGS holder so the dealer couldn't have removed the spot before listing the coin on his website. Correct me if I am wrong python. >>

Ajaan, yes the coin is a PCGS graded coin.

coinkat · August 3, 2005 8:45AM

original Barbers are tough... and if it is already in a PCGS holder, that creates a different set of issues. I am sorry to read about this and if it were not in a slab, perhaps, the small target area could be done without impairing the entire surface. In all seriousness, the coin was not stored properly for a fairly brief period.

Myqqy · August 3, 2005 8:58AM

Do what coinguy1 says!!

Dog97 · August 3, 2005 9:07AM

He must not be too reputable if he sells PVC infested junk.
<<>>
So just what is the dealer acceptable level of PVC?
He refunded your money so your concern in the matter should have ended but we understand you don't want this slime dealer ripping off some body else with the same coin he tried to shank you with. The only way to prevent this from happening is by naming this slimeball.

Bear · August 3, 2005 9:10AM

The dealer took care of you fairly, let the matter go.

Goldude · August 3, 2005 9:26AM

You buy coin, you don't like the coin, you send the coin back to the dealer, and he nicely sends you the money back lol and your mad??

coinkat · August 3, 2005 9:47AM

I think that perhaps we are missing the point that Python is attempting to make here. He was not happy because there was PVC and the picture reflects that. Regrettably the coin is in a holder and it would be tough to conserve without cracking out.

Python is trying to take the high road here and has expressed concern for someone that may buy the same coin and face the same situation. Even though he was able to get a refund, I think there is still a point here that is worth making... A COIN LIKE THIS SHOULD NOT JUST BE TOSSED BACK INTO AN INVENTORY AND OFFERED TO THE NEXT UNSUSPECTING SOLE. I'm alittle surprised that some suggest that just because he got his money back that there is "no harm no foul". This is unacceptable and this conduct should not be tolerated...

well done Python

gyocomgd · August 3, 2005 9:48AM

Python, you were treated fairly with the refund. Furthermore, I'd like to see an example of someone calling attention to a problem coin that is presently in a PCGS holder.
It's ridiculous that the graders would overlook those spots, and that they'd certify the coin to begin with. Your spotting the spots shows you have more expertise than their graders do. This entire nit-picking, subjective grading on aspects of a coin that should not be subjective, adds a crap-shoot element to the hobby and really pulls it down.

Bochiman · August 3, 2005 10:29AM

<< I think that perhaps we are missing the point that Python is attempting to make here. He was not happy because there was PVC and the picture reflects that. Regrettably the coin is in a holder and it would be tough to conserve without cracking out.

Python is trying to take the high road here and has expressed concern for someone that may buy the same coin and face the same situation. Even though he was able to get a refund, I think there is still a point here that is worth making... A COIN LIKE THIS SHOULD NOT JUST BE TOSSED BACK INTO AN INVENTORY AND OFFERED TO THE NEXT UNSUSPECTING SOLE. I'm alittle surprised that some suggest that just because he got his money back that there is "no harm no foul". This is unacceptable and this conduct should not be tolerated...

well done Python >>

I'm with coinkat on this one......
Python could have gotten his money back and left it at that (and, good for the dealer he did that....that makes a good dealer). HOWEVER, to just take it back and put it up again for auction with the same issues/problem pointed out and no mention is either lazy, greedy, or deceitful.
A really good dealer, imho, would have returned the money, sent the coin back to PCGS for treatment (or, noted the "possible" problem on the website), and then put the coin for sale again.
Now, the dealer is either waiting to sell to someone without the knowledge to spot the PVC and know what it is or waiting for another return/problem.

I don't see why people are jumping on python....other than for not naming the dealer or linking the coin/website in question.....

coinkat · August 3, 2005 10:39AM

Let's take this a step further. Python names the dealer/website here in the post and then gets blasted for taking this public without a private resolution to this issue. If the dealer is that well known, they probably look at the forum here and will recognize this as a problem and will do the right thing. Again, I think Python took the High Road and is getting blasted... this is very unfortunate.

Bochiman · August 3, 2005 11:01AM

<< A dealer cannot describe every little problem with a coin. A caveat, I'd have to know the magnitude of the PVC problem. If it is market acceptable, then no need to mention, especially if in a PCGS holder and the dealer offers a reasonable return privilege. >>

Question: Who determines what is "market acceptable"? The dealer? The buyer? PCGS for slabbing it?

Seriously....if you are going to toss around the term "market acceptable" then define it please.

Thanks

Dog97 · August 3, 2005 11:20AM

<<<Even though he was able to get a refund, I think there is still a point here that is worth making... A COIN LIKE THIS SHOULD NOT JUST BE TOSSED BACK INTO AN INVENTORY AND OFFERED TO THE NEXT UNSUSPECTING SOLE. I'm alittle surprised that some suggest that just because he got his money back that there is "no harm no foul". This is unacceptable and this conduct should not be tolerated...>>>
YEAH!!! That's what I was trying to say. Don't know how it came out sounding like I was calling the dealer a slimeball for knowingly passing PVC infested junk on to some other unsuspecting collector.

relayer · August 3, 2005 11:21AM

LeeG · August 3, 2005 11:23AM

Won't the PVC continue to "Grow" and cause more damage? Sounds like the dealer trying to unload a coin while he can. Needs to go back to PCGS, and good on ya python. Might want to let the Dealer know you've posted about the coin here maybe he'll do the right thing?

coinkat · August 3, 2005 11:33AM

Dog97:

I think you said what I would have preferred to say...

Fairlaneman · August 3, 2005 11:33AM

The cream of the crop is coming to the top in this hot market. Things like Dealers, Collectors and Coins. This thread shows that.

Of course Python, who is concerned about other collectors and what they may receive from a "Cream of the Crop Dealer", is a low life slim ball for even bringing this up.

What a place this has turned into.

Ken

Longacre · August 3, 2005 11:34AM

Getting a refund is nice, but you should talk to him and get his side of the story.

nederveit · August 3, 2005 12:28PM

Can someone show me exactly where the PVC is at? Guess my eyes are bad, thanks.

mozin · August 3, 2005 1:38PM

I thought PCGS would accept responsibility for encapsulating a coin with active PVC. Can't such a coin be sent to PCGS and have the PVC removed before the coin is reholdered, at no charge?

coinguy1 · August 3, 2005 1:50PM

<< I thought PCGS would accept responsibility for encapsulating a coin with active PVC. Can't such a coin be sent to PCGS and have the PVC removed before the coin is reholdered, at no charge? >>

Probably so. The dealer who owns the coin has to be aware of the PVC and be willing to go to the effort to submit the coin to PCGS, however.

morgannut2 · August 3, 2005 2:37PM

I had a PCGS MS-66 Silver Dollar with a few small PVC spots--It took about 2 weeks for PCGS to get the coin back to me with the PVC removed--They charged me 5 or 10 bucks for the new holder, and it looked fine. How do you know the dealer didn't do the same thing--and for a few bucks, why won't he??

PerryHall · August 3, 2005 3:49PM

Send it back to PCGS and give them a chance to fix it. Not a difficult decision to make.

1jester · August 3, 2005 6:23PM

"I think that perhaps we are missing the point that Python is attempting to make here. He was not happy because there was PVC and the picture reflects that. Regrettably the coin is in a holder and it would be tough to conserve without cracking out.

Python is trying to take the high road here and has expressed concern for someone that may buy the same coin and face the same situation. Even though he was able to get a refund, I think there is still a point here that is worth making... A COIN LIKE THIS SHOULD NOT JUST BE TOSSED BACK INTO AN INVENTORY AND OFFERED TO THE NEXT UNSUSPECTING SOLE. I'm alittle surprised that some suggest that just because he got his money back that there is "no harm no foul". This is unacceptable and this conduct should not be tolerated...

well done Python"

I agree 100%.

I'd be interested in knowing who the dealer is, personally. I think it would be a benefit to the numismatic world (collectors as well as dealers). However, I can't help but wonder how the legalistic climate of today would treat Python for this gracious and selfless act of telling us.

PerryHall · August 3, 2005 8:31PM

I don't think he wants to out the dealer because he wants to keep buying from him contrary to what he is saying.

python · August 4, 2005 7:30AM

This is the last I'll post to this thread. I'm not going to name the dealer, I never intended to I was only asking for
opinions on what he did. In the end I got my money back so I was treated fairly. I mailed the coin back the Saturday
before the show in San Francisco so there's no way he had time to take care of the problem and have it reslabbed.

Thanks for the opinions on this matter, I really found them to be interesting.

1jester · August 4, 2005 8:04AM

Thanks for posting again, Python.

leothelyon · August 4, 2005 8:26AM

I found some green spots on the high points of the eagle and thought it might be PVC. I took it in to another dealer to get a second opinion and he confirmed it

Is it really PVC? How can anyone be certain? I have read that PVC can cause damage to a coin if it's not removed in time. Perhaps the coin has already been cleaned and what we're seeing is PVC damage.

Leo

1jester · August 4, 2005 8:31AM

PVC damage isn't green. Once PVC has been removed, the coin displays no more green. However, the coin might be left with etching, or pitting from the effects of the PVC.

coinkat · August 4, 2005 8:47AM

1jester is right about this... and it is obvious on coins in a higher grade whereby the pitting is very clear.

AlixTCat · August 4, 2005 9:36AM

If the coin is in a PCGS holder, it is up to PCGS to do something, not the OP. THEY put it into the holder like that. It didn't get PVC damage in the PCGS holder did it? PCGS guarantee what they holder. I would have gone to them first.

Jonathan

coinkat · August 4, 2005 9:48AM

Dealers should know better and if they if just don't get it, perhaps there is another way available for such folks to make a living...

leothelyon · August 4, 2005 9:54AM

Thank you 1jester and coinkat. Pitting is correct! Then it must be PVC that has dried on the coin and perhaps there's some pitting not seen until the green spottings are remove. Is this a good idea? How might the coin grade then?

Leo

ddink · August 4, 2005 4:33PM

<< You buy coin, you don't like the coin, you send the coin back to the dealer, and he nicely sends you the money back lol and your mad?? >>

You unknowingly sell me a .9999 fine gold maple leaf that turns out to be a gold-plated counterfeit, and I return it to you and advise you that it is not pure gold. You can easily test this (specific gravity tests and such) and yet you relist it, KNOWING full well that it's fake. But since you gave me a refund, that makes it right to knowingly sell a fake coin (or in the orginal case, a problem coin) to someone else? If you think what the dealer did is okay, I'd seriously question your business ethics.

1jester · August 4, 2005 10:30PM

You're welcome, Leo. And you're absolutely right to question whether there is PVC damage under the green. Naturally, this potential damage won't be uncovered/discovered until the coin is conserved, and if there's damage, it seems highly unlikely the coin will ever make it into a slab again. I had some PVC problems once on some Gem DMPL Morgans (including CC Morgans--grrrr, what a tragedy) and after dipping them in acetone, I had what looked like moon craters all over those fine coins.

One of the morals of the story is to avoid PVC holders at all costs. Another is to remove PVC damage as soon as possible.

I just lost faith in a dealer.

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