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What happened to Jim Rice at the end of his career?
ndleo
Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭✭✭
Next year is an off-year in HOF voting with only Orel Hershiser as the only new candidate, so this maybe the year that one of the board favorites will make it (my vote is Jack Morris).
I was looking at some of the other candidates and Jim Rice's career is very interesting. At 33 he had over 2100 hits, 351 career HRs, and almost 1300 RBI. He was probably considered a lock at that time since he was well positioned to make a run at some milestone numbers. Then at 34 it all fell apart and at 36 his career was done.
Did he get hurt or have a off the field problems?
I was looking at some of the other candidates and Jim Rice's career is very interesting. At 33 he had over 2100 hits, 351 career HRs, and almost 1300 RBI. He was probably considered a lock at that time since he was well positioned to make a run at some milestone numbers. Then at 34 it all fell apart and at 36 his career was done.
Did he get hurt or have a off the field problems?
Mike
0
Comments
Again, ndleo, sorry if this feels like hijacking. I'm just hoping that a Red Sox fan that knows the answer to your question might also know the answer to mine.
Stingray
<< <i>Next year is an off-year in HOF voting with only Orel Hershiser as the only new candidate, so this maybe the year that one of the board favorites will make it (my vote is Jack Morris).
I was looking at some of the other candidates and Jim Rice's career is very interesting. At 33 he had over 2100 hits, 351 career HRs, and almost 1300 RBI. He was probably considered a lock at that time since he was well positioned to make a run at some milestone numbers. Then at 34 it all fell apart and at 36 his career was done.
Did he get hurt or have a off the field problems? >>
Not really. He was injured, but at the time, he was already slumping. Many on the inside attribute his sudden drop due to his vision. The contacts were no longer effective and he did experiment with vary designs of eye glasses, but he could never get his hand/eye coordination back to the way it used to be. He was let go and to avoid further embarrassment, decided to retire than move onto another team.
Julen
RIP GURU
<< <i>greenwell went to Japan when the red sox would not pony up the money and hated it from my recollection, he then retired shortly after >>
That's pretty much it. I always liked him as a player - and I remember him having 9 RBI's in one game towards the end of his career.
Jim Rice was a force for the better part of a decade (1975 - 1985). He seemed to burn out just as quickly, and as mentioned, had some media problems. Today, you see him on the NESN postgame Sox recaps from time to time.
If he had a problem with the media, he is not getting in. Might be the year of the pitcher - Gossage, Sutter, or Jack Morris.
I don't think Orel will get in on a first ballot.
Unlike the most overrated HOF ever (Robin Yount, who padded his career stats by starting 4 years too early and quitting 4 years too late) Jim Rice retired when he needed to - as his productivity declined rapidly after finishing 3rd in MVP in 86. He (and others) attributed it to various causes which included, as mentioned, very bad eye site. But primarily I think it was just prematurely aging in his joints, namely his arms and wrists, where all his bat speed was generated. Unarguably, Rice had probably the quickest hands/wrists in majors during his peek (ok, maybe second to Tony Gwynn) and generated so much power without the huge, looping swing like most other sluggers. I think he just couldn't do it anymore. I don't remember if there was a specific injury in 89 that he didn't return from and decided to hang it up, or if midway through the season he realized he couldn't be productive anymore and called it quits. Either way, he retired because he couldn't be productive as he and the team needed him to be. There's no doubt he could've hung around for another season or two to reach 400 HR/1500 RBI, which would've greatly helped his HOF chances. Others speculate that he didn't want to drop his career average further below .300 (which obviously also hurt his eventual HOF credentials). He entered his last season batting an even .300, then retired after starting the season terribly, which dropped his career average to .298.
Long story short, it's pathetic and unfortunate that Robin Yount, Tony Perez, Paul Molitor, and Kirby Puckett are in the HOF and Rice is not.
Greenwell had a bad back that plagued him his entire career, leaving him on the DL for most of his last 5 seasons in Boston. I remember he got in to a physical fight with rookie Mo Vaughn in spring training one year and allegedly enjoyed wrestling alligators in Florida, hence his nickname The Gator. Don't remember anything about him going to Japan. Another unfortunate Boston talent that never fully panned out. Could've really been a superstar if he stayed healthy.
<< <i>Long story short, it's pathetic and unfortunate that Robin Yount, Tony Perez, Paul Molitor, and Kirby Puckett are in the HOF >>
Well I think that you are way off base on the Yount comment so here are some facts for you.
In a list comparing similar batters, Yount ranks right up there with five others who are in the HOF and at least one or two others on this list who will end up in the HOF. Below that is a list of seasons where he either won awards or was ranked in the top ten of a specific categorey.
I'm not sure when we started to punish longevity. I mean a lot of players have stayed around a couple years past their prime but that doesn't mean they don't deserve to be in the HOF. And I agree Rice put up some solid years and should get a more serious look but I also think that Yount and Molitor both deserve to be there. Next time do your homework before writing such nonsense as I quoted above.
Robin Yount
Similar batters:
*=HOF
Paul Molitor *
Brooks Robinson *
Craig Biggio
George Brett *
Vada Pinson
Roberto Alomar
Charlie Gehringer *
Cal Ripken
Joe Morgan *
Rusty Staub
All-Star
1980
1982
1983
Awards
1982-AL-MVP
1982-TSN Player of the Year
1989-AL-MVP
Gold Gloves
1982-AL--SS
Silver Sluggers
1980-AL--SS
1982-AL--SS
1989-AL--OF
MVP (YrLg-Rk-Shr)
1980-AL-17-0.02
1981-AL-17-0.02
1982-AL-1-0.98
1983-AL-18-0.02
1987-AL-18-0.02
1988-AL-11-0.09
1989-AL-1-0.65
Car-107-1.80 shares
Batting Average
1982-.331-2
1983-.308-10
1986-.312-6
1987-.312-10
1988-.306-10
1989-.318-4
On-base %
1982-.379-10
1986-.388-8
1989-.384-10
Slugging %
1980-.519-5
1982-.578-1
1983-.503-10
1989-.511-3
OPS
1982-.957-1
1983-.886-7
1989-.896-3
Games
1976-161-1
1984-160-5
1987-158-9
1988-162-1
1989-160-6
1990-158-9
Car-2856-13
At Bats
1976-638-3
1982-635-4
1984-624-8
1987-635-4
1988-621-3
Car-11008-7
Runs
1980-121-2
1982-129-2
1983-102-6
1984-105-7
1989-101-3
1990-98-4
Car-1632-32
Hits
1980-179-9
1982-210-1
1983-178-9
1984-186-7
1987-198-5
1988-190-4
1989-195-4
Car-3142-17
Total Bases
1980-317-4
1982-367-1
1983-291-9
1987-304-9
1988-289-8
1989-314-2
Car-4730-25
Doubles
1977-34-8
1980-49-1
1982-46-1
1983-42-3
1988-38-8
1989-38-5
1992-40-3
Car-583-13
Triples
1978-9-4
1980-10-5
1981-5-9
1982-12-3
1983-10-1
1984-7-10
1986-7-5
1987-9-4
1988-11-1
1989-9-4
Car-126-87
RBI
1982-114-4
1989-103-7
Car-1406-60
Bases on Balls
1983-72-10
Strikeouts
Car-1350-66
Singles
1976-137-4
1977-132-9
1984-136-8
1987-143-3
Car-2182-20
Adjusted OPS+
1982-166-1
1983-151-3
1989-152-3
Runs Created
1980-102-10
1982-141-1
1983-112-7
1987-117-10
1988-107-8
1989-120-1
Car-1641-44
Extra-Base Hits
1980-82-1
1982-87-1
1983-69-5
1988-62-10
1989-68-3
Car-960-30
Times on Base
1982-265-6
1983-253-6
1984-254-6
1987-275-4
1988-256-7
1989-264-5
Car-4156-29
Hit By Pitch
1989-6-9
Sac. Flies
1981-6-9
1982-10-2
1983-8-7
1984-9-6
1985-9-9
1990-8-8
1991-9-3
1992-12-2
Car-123-3
Intentional Walks
1987-10-7
Power/Speed Number
1980-21.4-1
1982-18.9-5
1984-14.9-6
1989-20.0-3
1990-15.9-10
Car-260.6-35
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Molitor
Similar batters:
*=HOF
Robin Yount *
George Brett *
Paul Waner *
Roberto Clemente *
Vada Pinson
Lou Brock *
Tony Gwynn
Al Oliver
Al Kaline *
Goose Goslin *
All-Star
1980
1985
1988
1991
1992
1993
1994
Awards
1987-Hutch Award
1993-AL-Babe Ruth Award
1993-ML-WS MVP
1997-Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
1998-Branch Rickey Award
Silver Sluggers
1987-AL--DH
1988-AL--DH
1993-AL--DH
1996-AL--DH
MVP (YrLg-Rk-Shr)
1979-AL-20-0.02
1982-AL-12-0.07
1987-AL-5-0.32
1988-AL-8-0.13
1991-AL-11-0.13
1992-AL-10-0.16
1993-AL-2-0.53
1994-AL-18-0.02
1996-AL-13-0.05
Car-142-1.43 shares
Batting Average
1979-.322-6
1982-.302-10
1985-.297-9
1987-.353-2
1988-.312-5
1989-.315-6
1991-.325-5
1992-.320-4
1993-.332-2
1994-.341-6
1996-.341-3
On-base %
1987-.438-2
1988-.384-10
1991-.399-7
1992-.389-7
1993-.402-9
1994-.410-10
Slugging %
1987-.566-5
OPS
1987-1.003-2
1991-.888-8
1992-.851-10
1993-.911-10
Games
1982-160-6
1991-158-10
1992-158-9
1993-160-2
1994-115-1
1996-161-3
Car-2683-28
At Bats
1982-666-1
1983-608-8
1988-609-10
1989-615-10
1991-665-1
1993-636-2
1994-454-3
1996-660-2
Car-10835-12
Runs
1982-136-1
1983-95-10
1987-114-1
1988-115-4
1991-133-1
1993-121-2
1994-86-7
Car-1782-17
Hits
1979-188-4
1982-201-3
1988-190-4
1989-194-5
1991-216-1
1992-195-3
1993-211-1
1994-155-2
1996-225-1
Car-3319-9
Total Bases
1982-300-8
1991-325-4
1992-281-10
1993-324-7
1994-235-8
Car-4854-21
Doubles
1987-41-1
1989-35-8
1992-36-8
1993-37-9
1994-30-9
1996-41-8
Car-605-10
Triples
1979-16-2
1982-8-8
1988-6-9
1991-13-1
1992-7-7
1996-8-3
RBI
1993-111-8
Car-1307-84
Bases on Balls
Car-1094-64
Strikeouts
Car-1244-95
Stolen Bases
1979-33-7
1980-34-6
1982-41-4
1983-41-6
1987-45-4
1988-41-3
1989-27-9
Car-504-36
Singles
1979-136-5
1982-148-3
1985-130-9
1988-137-5
1989-144-6
1991-154-2
1992-140-6
1993-147-2
1994-107-1
1996-167-1
Car-2366-10
Adjusted OPS+
1987-161-3
1991-147-7
1992-140-6
1993-142-9
Runs Created
1982-110-8
1988-106-9
1989-103-8
1991-128-4
1992-110-4
1993-131-4
1994-97-6
Car-1809-25
Extra-Base Hits
Car-953-33
Times on Base
1982-271-4
1988-263-5
1989-262-6
1991-299-2
1992-271-4
1993-291-3
1994-211-4
1996-284-8
Car-4460-17
Sac. Flies
1989-9-9
1992-11-4
1993-8-10
1996-9-8
1997-12-2
1998-10-6
Car-109-12
Intentional Walks
1991-16-4
1992-12-8
Grounded into Double Plays
1996-21-4
1998-19-5
Car-209-57
Power/Speed Number
1982-26.0-2
1983-22.0-1
1987-23.6-7
1988-19.7-6
1989-15.6-9
1991-17.9-9
1992-17.3-8
1993-22.0-7
1994-16.5-5
Car-319.6-10
At Bats per Strikeout
1996-9.2-9
1998-12.2-2
As for Rice, he was outstanding, but Fenway sure helped. He wasn't as dominant in the correct categories as Brett, Schmidt, or Murray, but he was good. Considering he was in the toughest era ever, then he should have some merit! Actually, Dick ALLen has a far bigger gripe in a very similar career path. He too just dropped off the face of the earth quickly. Though Allen was far more dominant than Rice was. Nobody please bring up RBI for Rice as unless you studied the men on stats you will see he benefited from lineups and environments in that category.
The thing of Rice leads back to the Mattingly question...Why does everybody believe a guy has to play 20 years to reach milestones just to make him a Hall of Famer?? Would it have done Rice's team's any good if he were to hang on with a new pair of glasses for another seven years and hit 15 home runs a year just to get to 500, all the while being a below average hitter???
According to many's flawed believes, if Rice continued to be a below average hitter but managed 15 home runs a year to be at the 'Magical 500', he would be a 'lock'! How in the he!! does that make him a Hall of Famer compared to what he already did????? Are seven crappy seasons on top of what he did that appealing to the average fan??? What would it be about the seven crappy seasons that would make fans wet their shorts to now proclaim Rice is a Hall of Famer because he now has 500 homers????
All a player needs to do is play ten years!! Ten years is plenty enough time to gauge a players ability. It isnt' like one year wonders like Hidalgo, Cash, or Steinbach would be let in. Remember, when guys like Rice, or Allen retire early, their position doesn't go unfilled!! It is often beneficial to the club as those guys usually make good money, so now the club can put that money towards someone else. For example, McGwire retired early and his salary basically turned into Scott Rolen!!! Now isn't that better than Mcgwire hanging on to be an average player at the same salary(actually MORE) as a healthy Rolen??
Luckily football doesn't follow the same flawed logic or Gayle Sayers wouldn't have sniffed the Hall, and what a shame that would have been.
1. He did not start the 1975 season with the club, rather Tony Conigliaro's failed comeback attempt forced him to spend the first month in AAA Pawtucket. He did not finish the 1975 season either as his hand was broken by a pitch late in the season. His truncated season left him behind Fred Lynn statistically, but his per AB totals were better. It is likely that he could have been Rookie of the Year. Further, without the player of the decade, the Red Sox took the mighty Big Red Machine to game 7. With him, who knows? I always thought that he could have tipped the balance. Either ROY or WS champ would have put him over the top. Lynn was also MVP. That would have done it too (since Rice was MVP in '78).
2. His propensity for hitting into double plays (6-4-3) was so bad it was predictable in his last two years. He was pinch hit for often because of this. A sad end, and frustrating, for an RBI guy like Rice. He was literally called "6-4-3" by many of us Sox fans at the end, which really ended his career on a sour note rather than a high.
If I had a vote, I would certainly vote for him - but barely.
Bosox1976
Jim Rice:
Similar Batters
Orlando Cepeda *
Andres Galarraga
Ellis Burks
Duke Snider *
Joe Carter
Dave Parker
Billy Williams *
Gary Sheffield
Willie Stargell *
Chili Davis
All-Star
1977
1978
1979
1980
1983
1984
1985
1986
Awards
1978-AL-MVP
Silver Sluggers
1983-AL--OF
1984-AL--OF
MVP (YrLg-Rk-Shr)
1975-AL-3-0.46
1977-AL-4-0.42
1978-AL-1-0.90
1979-AL-5-0.32
1982-AL-19-0.03
1983-AL-4-0.38
1984-AL-13-0.03
1986-AL-3-0.61
Car-28-3.15 shares
Batting Average
1975-.309-4
1977-.320-6
1978-.315-3
1979-.325-4
1982-.309-7
1986-.324-5
On-base %
1977-.376-9
1986-.384-10
Slugging %
1975-.491-9
1976-.482-2
1977-.593-1
1978-.600-1
1979-.596-2
1980-.504-7
1983-.550-2
1986-.490-10
Car-.502-85
OPS
1976-.797-10
1977-.969-2
1978-.970-1
1979-.977-3
1983-.911-4
1986-.874-7
Games
1977-160-3
1978-163-1
1979-158-10
1981-108-4
1984-159-7
At Bats
1977-644-3
1978-677-1
1979-619-10
1981-451-1
1983-626-5
1984-657-2
1986-618-10
Car-8225-98
Runs
1975-92-4
1977-104-4
1978-121-2
1979-117-3
1984-98-9
1986-98-10
Hits
1975-174-9
1977-206-3
1978-213-1
1979-201-2
1981-128-7
1983-191-5
1984-184-9
1986-200-5
Car-2452-91
Total Bases
1975-277-6
1976-280-3
1977-382-1
1978-406-1
1979-369-1
1981-199-6
1983-344-1
1984-307-7
1986-303-7
Car-4129-59
Doubles
1975-29-10
1979-39-7
1986-39-3
Triples
1976-8-6
1977-15-2
1978-15-1
1984-7-10
Home Runs
1976-25-4
1977-39-1
1978-46-1
1979-39-2
1980-24-9
1981-17-7
1983-39-1
Car-382-48
RBI
1975-102-5
1977-114-3
1978-139-1
1979-130-2
1981-62-10
1983-126-1
1984-122-2
1985-103-9
1986-110-4
Car-1451-48
Strikeouts
1975-122-6
1976-123-1
1977-120-5
1978-126-4
1979-97-10
1981-76-8
Car-1423-49
Singles
1978-127-9
1981-92-7
1982-124-10
1986-139-5
Adjusted OPS+
1977-148-5
1978-158-1
1979-154-4
1983-141-6
1986-137-6
Runs Created
1975-97-9
1977-142-2
1978-150-1
1979-141-2
1981-66-8
1983-123-4
1986-117-6
Car-1459-74
Extra-Base Hits
1975-55-8
1976-58-3
1977-83-2
1978-86-1
1979-84-2
1983-74-2
Car-834-68
Times on Base
1977-267-4
1978-276-1
1979-262-6
1981-165-9
1983-249-7
1986-266-3
Hit By Pitch
1977-8-8
1982-7-8
1983-6-9
Sac. Flies
1975-8-8
1976-9-8
1979-8-9
1981-7-5
1985-9-9
1986-9-3
Car-94-40
Intentional Walks
1977-10-5
1978-7-10
1983-10-9
Grounded into Double Plays
1975-19-5
1976-18-5
1977-21-5
1981-14-7
1982-29-1
1983-31-1
1984-36-1
1985-35-1
1986-19-6
1987-22-3
1988-18-8
Car-315-6
Power/Speed Number
1975-13.8-9
Similar Pitchers:
Bob Welch
Milt Pappas
Catfish Hunter *
Kevin Brown
Vida Blue
Dazzy Vance *
Jim Perry
Dave Stieb
Silver King
Bob Shawkey
All-Star
1987
1988
1989
Awards
1988-NL-Babe Ruth Award
1988-NL-CYA
1988-NLCS MVP
1988-NL-TSN Pitcher of the Year
1988-TSN Player of the Year
1988-ML-WS MVP
1995-ALCS MVP
Gold Gloves
1988-NL--P
Silver Sluggers
1993-NL--P
MVP (YrLg-Rk-Shr)
1985-NL-16-0.03
1988-NL-6-0.33
Car-501-0.36 shares
CYA (YrLg-Rk-Shr)
1985-NL-3-0.14
1987-NL-4-0.12
1988-NL-1-1.00
1989-NL-4-0.06
1 Cy Young
Car-28-1.32 shares
Sac. Hits
1986-10-10
1987-10-6
1988-19-1
1989-10-9
ERA
1984-2.66-3
1985-2.03-3
1987-3.06-3
1988-2.26-3
1989-2.31-2
Wins
1985-19-5
1987-16-3
1988-23-1
1989-15-10
1995-16-5
1996-15-8
Car-204-96
Won-Loss %
1985-.864-1
1988-.742-4
1995-.727-5
1996-.625-10
1997-.700-5
BB + H per IP (WHIP)
1984-1.107-3
1985-1.031-4
1987-1.213-7
1988-1.052-4
1995-1.207-7
Hits Allowed/9IP
1984-7.59-7
1985-6.72-3
1988-7.01-6
1995-8.12-8
Bases on Balls/9IP
1984-2.37-9
1987-2.52-6
1995-2.74-7
1996-2.53-6
Strikeouts/9IP
1984-7.12-6
Innings
1987-264.7-1
1988-267.0-1
1989-256.7-1
Strikeouts
1984-150-8
1985-157-8
1987-190-4
1988-178-7
1989-178-6
Car-2014-57
Games Started
1986-35-7
1987-35-4
1988-34-4
1989-33-7
1992-33-10
1998-34-5
Car-466-61
Comp. Games
1984-8-6
1985-9-6
1986-8-5
1987-10-3
1988-15-1
1989-8-6
1993-5-7
Shutouts
1984-4-1
1985-5-3
1988-8-1
1989-4-3
1995-1-9
Bases On Balls Allow.
1986-86-8
1998-85-9
Hits Allowed
1987-247-3
1989-226-4
1992-209-10
SO to Walk
1984-3.00-3
1987-2.57-6
1995-2.18-10
Losses
1986-14-4
1987-16-2
1989-15-1
1992-15-1
Earned Runs Allow.
1986-99-6
1992-86-5
Wild Pitches
1984-8-10
1986-12-4
1987-11-3
1992-10-7
1996-11-7
1997-11-7
1998-12-3
Car-121-45
Hit Batsmen
1984-4-10
1985-6-6
1986-5-8
1987-9-3
1992-8-5
1996-12-3
1997-11-5
1998-13-2
1999-11-4
2000-11-8
Car-117-31
Batters Faced
1986-988-10
1987-1093-2
1988-1068-1
1989-1047-1
Car-13150-92
Adjusted ERA+
1984-133-3
1985-172-3
1987-130-4
1988-148-4
1989-148-2
<< <i>Unlike the most overrated HOF ever (Robin Yount, who padded his career stats by starting 4 years too early and quitting 4 years too late) Jim Rice retired when he needed to - as his productivity declined rapidly after finishing 3rd in MVP in 86. >>
Wow. Not much love for a two time MVP, huh?
Just to add some stats to the discussion, let's look at Yount's OPS+, which compares his production to the league average hitter and also adjusts for his home stadium. (At least I think it's ballpark adjusted...but I'm not positive.)
Year...Age...OPS+
1974...19...79
1975...20...90
1976...21...76
1977...22...94
1990...34...102
1991...35...98
1992...36...102
1993...37...94
So, it's pretty hard to say that Yount was simply hanging on while padding his stats. While he may not have been the best player in the league, he was, quite clearly, league average in his last four years. That's not a bad thing, especially when you're the most popular player in the history of the franchise, play a premium defensive position and won an MVP at the age of 33. Yount was clearly not a good hitter for two of his first four seasons. However, he didn't promote himself at the age of 19 in 1974, and he didn't completely embarass himself. In fact, he was darn near league average in two of those first four years, and that's while playing one of the two most demanding defensive positions.
As for Jim Rice, he put up an unbroken streak of triple digit OPS+ seasons from 1975-1988. Very impressive. 1987 and 1988 were at 101 and 102, pretty darn similar to Robin Yount's 1990 and 1992. However, remember that Yount was playing CF and Rice was a DH at that point. A CF that has an OPS+ of about 100 has a LOT more value than a DH with the same OPS+.
Just to be clear, this post isn't intended to attack Jim Rice. The guy had a great career and is deserving of the many fans he has. Instead, this post is intended to support Robin Yount, who was a great baseball player and is deserving of both the at bats he took in the early 1990s and the 250-odd square inches his plaque occupies in Cooperstown, NY.
<< <i>Would it have done Rice's team's any good if he were to hang on with a new pair of glasses for another seven years and hit 15 home runs a year just to get to 500, all the while being a below average hitter??? >>
Of course this wouldn't have helped the Red Sox.
Of course, there has NEVER been a player do this simply to reach 500 career home runs. It just doesn't happen. Look at their stats. In fact, nearly every member of the 500 HR club remained at least a league average hitter (judged by an OPS+ of about 100) through their last at bat in the majors. The only real exception is Eddie Murray, who still had an OPS+ of 87 in the year he hit 22 HR to go over 500.
So, it may seem that players stick around just to hit #500, but the reality is that these guys are so good that they remain league average or better, even when in the severe decline of their last seasons.
Back to Jimbo. Next year will be his best chance because the year after starts the Gwynn/McGwire/Ripken train.
The two guys I want in are Jack Morris and Andre Dawson. Being a big game pitcher and 3-time WS winner must mean something. The game isn't all about percentage points and stats. I think Dawson's achievements look better considering that many of his peers were roid freaks.
In reality, I don't think Jim Rice will make it. I remember that we Detroit fans feared him as a hitter, but he wasn't known as a winner. If you know what I mean.
All-Star
1991
1992
1993
1994
Silver Sluggers
1993-AL--DH
1996-AL--DH
Batting Average
1991-.325-5
1992-.320-4
1993-.332-2
1994-.341-6
1996-.341-3
On-base %
1991-.399-7
1992-.389-7
1993-.402-9
1994-.410-10
OPS
1991-.888-8
1992-.851-10
1993-.911-10
Games
1991-158-10
1992-158-9
1993-160-2
1994-115-1
1996-161-3
At Bats
1991-665-1
1993-636-2
1994-454-3
1996-660-2
Runs
1991-133-1
1993-121-2
1994-86-7
Hits
1991-216-1
1992-195-3
1993-211-1
1994-155-2
1996-225-1
Total Bases
1991-325-4
1992-281-10
1993-324-7
1994-235-8
Doubles
1992-36-8
1993-37-9
1994-30-9
1996-41-8
Triples
1991-13-1
1992-7-7
1996-8-3
RBI
1993-111-8
Singles
1991-154-2
1992-140-6
1993-147-2
1994-107-1
1996-167-1
Adjusted OPS+
1991-147-7
1992-140-6
1993-142-9
Runs Created
1991-128-4
1992-110-4
1993-131-4
1994-97-6
Times on Base
1991-299-2
1992-271-4
1993-291-3
1994-211-4
1996-284-8
Intentional Walks
1991-16-4
1992-12-8
Power/Speed Number
1991-17.9-9
1992-17.3-8
1993-22.0-7
1994-16.5-5
At Bats per Strikeout
1996-9.2-9
1998-12.2-2
I like the way you analyze.
More about Rice's era....OPS+ measures vs. the league average(and adds the ballpark
Dawson's peers on steroids?? I really don't consider these guys Dawson's peers even thoug he played with them in his old man years. Dawson belongs in the 70's 80's club...a different era without a doubt. Dawson's OPS+ are weak though with 2,5, and 6 as his only top ten finishes. He played good defesne and ran well when younger, but his OB% is just killing him (IT IS NINE POINTS BELOW THE LEAGUE AVERAGE!!). I don't think there is a slugger in the Hall that has a below average OB% for his career.
<< <i>Molitor was a great DH, but I think it cheapens his 3000 hits a little bit. He obtained 1449 of his hits primarily as a DH. I know it's part of the game, but I still like it when players have to field also, like Gwynn. >>
How about Edgar Martinez, who spent about 75% of his career as a DH. Does he get in?
Mark
<< <i>Don't remember anything about him going to Japan. Another unfortunate Boston talent that never fully panned out. Could've really been a superstar if he stayed healthy. >>
Back to Greenwell, he did indeed play in Japan after the Sox basically said they did not want him anymore -
OSAKA, JAPAN -- Former Red Sox left fielder Mike Greenwell retired from baseball after breaking his right foot playing for the Hanshin Tigers of the Japanese Central League, the Japan Times reported.
Greenwell, who missed the first month of the season because of a back injury, hit .231 with five runs batted in. He appeared with the Tigers for the first time on May 1 and played in seven games.
The 33-year-old Greenwell spent his entire 11-year major league career in Boston, much of it in left field, and has a .303 career average with 130 homers and 726 RBI.
He decided to become a free agent after the Red Sox designated him for assignment a few weeks after the season ended. He signed a one-year contract with the Tigers in December.
"I wanted to leave the game with honor and not just try to play for money," Greenwell said yesterday.
He batted .295 with seven home runs and 44 RBI in his final major league season in 1996. Greenwell played in 77 games, missing almost three months of the year with a broken left ring finger.
Veteran players reacted with sadness over the news that former teammate Mike Greenwell, who had hoped to continue his playing career in Japan, was forced to retire because of back troubles.
"It's a shame he had to go out because of injuries," said Naehring. "It would have been nice for him to quit the way I'm sure he wanted to.
"I'll just always remember him as a guy who played hard and wanted to win," said Vaughn. "He was a Red Sox, through and through. He always wore his heart on his sleeve."
"He would always say something to loosen up when we were slumping," added Reggie Jefferson. "I think you need a guy on the team like that."
(From May 1997)
As we all know from his beautiful rookie card, Yount came up in 74 at the age of 19. Over the next three seasons, he proceeded to bat .250, .267, and .252 with 13 combined HR. Certainly not three HOF years, but still.... Stay with me...
Then in 1990, at the ripe age of 35, Yount decided to stick it out for 4 more years, putting up 4 more not-so-HOF years batting .247, .260, .264, and .258.
Please stay with me here...
Now, look at his career stats... Those 7 years, first three and last four, are BY FAR the worst 7 of his entire career. They are literally the lowest 7 batting averages of his career. Just about the 7 lowest HR, hit, RBI etc years of his career. Hang on, almost done....
Now consider this.. Yount was not a part time player during these 7 years. For instance, in 1990, the great HOFer batted nearly 600 times, helping his team with a whopping .247 average.... and then decided to come back for thee more years. He was a handicapp to the Brewers through those 7 seasons. A 9th hitter, your typical weak hitting SS. Rounding third, coming home...
So what did Yount do for those 7 years, other than hurt the Brewers. Simple. 936 hits. That's all. Without those years, he's sitting around 2200 for his very-solid not-quite-HOF-career. But for a guy who lead his league a measily three times in any significant offensive category (doubles twice, hits once), 200+ HR, .285 average and 2200 hits, with only one season of 200 hits, three seasons of 100+ rbi and four 20+ HR seasons in the span of 13 good years, I'm sorry, that's hardly even Dale Murphy or Don Mattingly, and certainly not a HOFer.
Yount is the ultimate reward-for-longevity inductee.
Amen.
I know but I will take a lot of heat for this, but I think Ozzie Smith is more overrated than Yount.
Finally, if you're truly going to partcipate in the discussion, don't just respond to those posts that are "easy" as you say. Respond to others that are making intelligent additions to the thread.
I really like this thread, but have to admit is has no place on these boards, so I'll bow out now with this.
Take Jim Rice's entire career, put it up against the best 16 seasons of any 70s-80s HOFers, Yount, Brett, Schmidt, Winfield, Molitor, Fisk and so on, and in many cases, he's comparable or blows them away. Give him 5-8 .265/15/65 years, and this thread becomes a moot point. If enough voters actually considered the value of those extra years that Rice didn't subject his team to with regards to what it SHOULD actually mean to be a hall of famer, he's a first ballot inductee. As it is, we wait for next year, his last realistic shot before Ripken and the rest come calling...
ajw, yes, I did see your post. I am familiar with OPS and personally think it's a bunch of sabermetrics BS. To me, there's no better gauge than BA/HR/RBI. You can cut up stats, adjust for ballparks (ridiculous idea), or do whatever, but if you look at the history of baseball, look at the greatest hitters throughout the different eras, you'll find that BA/HR/RBI is as good a gauge as anything. Remember, Bill James invents statistics to sell books... People have been following and rating ballplayers based on BA/HR/RBI as far back as you can go, and not because we're any more mathematically skilled at assessing player value and can come up with "more accurate" statistics. It's because Bill James wants to sell books. Which is not to dismiss it as meaningless, but is to reject the idea that BA/HR/RBI is in somewhat insufficient in judging value.
Anyways, you mentioned
Yount was a league average player for the final four years of his career and for two of his first four
with regards to OPS. So what you're telling me is that for about a 1/3 of his career, he performed as well as the average player in his league? And he is not the poster boy for the longevity award?
Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven and Jim Kaat all should get higher vote totals this year. Eventually I think all of them get in, but it may be 50 years from now. The numbers they put up compared to the projected numbers that pitchers from 90s and this decade have, make me think it will be very hard to reach what they've done.
NFL is way too slanted on winning the Super Bowl to get in, but I think MLB doesn't weigh enough -- postseason stats. Morris dominated and won 3 world series on three different teams and was a MAJOR factor. Blyleven won 2 WS with 2 different teams and I can say was a MAJOR factor for the Twins in 87.
Erik
By the way, I used a stat called OPS+, which I did define in my earlier post, and not simple OPS. You might want to look into them. I think that adding more information and knowledge will increase your enjoyment of the game, even if you decide that other stats are more meaningful.
How is Ozzie Smith overrated? Nobody ever said that he was a great hitter, so that is out of the arguement. What people do say is that Ozzie is the best defensive player ever - at any position. Did you ever see hime play? If you did, you would have to agree that he is not overrated defensively. Just my two cents and an unbiased opinion!
Shane
I think everyone is blinded by the stats here. IF you all remember when ESPN ran a show on players that Changed The Game. They had articles on Wilt and Russell and how the lane was changed in basketball. Jack Tatum on spearing in the NFL. Gogolak on soccer style kicking in the NFL.
AND ROBIN YOUNT ON SKIPPING THE BALL OFF THE ASTROTURF WHILE THROWING TO FIRST TO SPEED UP THE THROW.
He came up with the idea and everyone who played on that crappy surface used HIS idea for years until the Roids came in the 80's and the shortstops/3B did not need the extra help from the field. Just the needle.
So, you are forgetting the intangible aspects of the Hall.
As for Rice, iffy at best this year. If he has any chance at all it will be on the senrior circuit some decades from now.
So according to you a pair of players each go 2 for 4, so there is no difference in them since they are both at .500 like their average explains. You mean it doesn't matter to you that one of those players had two doubles and added a walk, and that the other guy got two singles??? IF using just average, then it paints a tiny portion of the picture of what happend. It says those two guys are equal. How do you account for those other events other than average then?? VERY SIMPLE!! They are judged in the OB% and SLG%. One guy was clearly better than the other. If it doesn't mean anything to you, then you should be debating elsewhere.
How about outs made? If a pair of players each hit 40 homers, but one of them made 60 more outs in the process that means they are equal since they both have the same amount of homers?? Are you kidding me? How does one incorporate those outs and such?? Just look at the slugging percentage.
OB% was invented long before Bill James as was SLG%. The paintstaking study of them turned into OPS, which was not done by Bill James actually. OPS+'s primary function is measuring to league average, and also includes ballpark factors, which are important. Everything that was studied as then correlated with millions of actual play by play data.
ROBIN YOUNT, ROBIN YOUNT, ROBIN YOUNT!! EVEN USING YOUR OWN SINGULAR FLAWED STAT OF BATTING AVERAGE TO SAY YOUNT KILLED HIS TEAM THE LAST FOUR YEARS IS FLAWED!!! Do you realize that Yount's batting average the last four years are within two points of the league average?? Even using your flawed method you are still painting him as aveage, so that is NOT killing his team!
DO YOU ALSO REALIZE THAT YOUNT"S FIRST THREE YEARS OF BATTING AVERAGE ARE ALSO RIGHT AT LEAGUE AVERAGE!! SO HOW IS THAT KILLING THE TEAM.
NOW DO YOU REALIZE THAT YOUNT WAS A SS AND CF?? WHAT DO YOU THINK THE AVERAGE SHORTSTOP BATTED IN THE MID 70'S?? YOUNT WAS WELL ABOVE AVERAGE IN BATTING AVERAGE AS A SS, SO HOW IS THAT KILLING HIS TEAM IF HE IS PERFORMING BETTER THAN MOST OF ALL THE OTHER TEAM"S SHORTSTOPS??? THAT IS AN ADVANTAGE FOR HIS TEAMS THOSE YEARS!!!!
For the record the average ML shortstop in Yount's first three years batted .244 and Slugged .315. Yount average around .258 and slugged .339!!! So if he is better than the average shortstop, how in the world is that killing his team?? That is giving his team an edge EVEN THEN, in what you call killing his team!!
SIR, I SUGGEST YOU GO BACK AND APOLOGIZE TO THOSE FELLAS WHOM YOU DEBATED ON THE MERITS OF YOUNT, BECAUSE YOU GOT IT ALL WRONG!
Part of my bias against Oz is based on how poorly Alan Trammel has done in the voting. That 1980's was a great era for SS and Tram keeps getting jobbed. Yount-Ripken-Ozzie, all first ballot. Tram - not even close. Granted that Yount and Ripken were much better offensive SS, Tram isn't even a longshot, he is a no-shot. Of the three HOF SS, I think Tram and Ozzie are comparable.
Alan Trammell
.285-2365 hits-185 HR-1003 RBI-236 SB
Ozzie Smith
.262-2460 hits-28 HR-793 RBI-580 SB
Interesting break down on Robin Yount above also. I had never considered him overrated but the numbers presented are compelling. How was his defense during those 7 years? Any gold gloves? I am an LA guy and Yount is from LA (Taft High) so I am a homer and will say he is not overrated!
Stingray
It's almost like they said, we will only vote for 3 SS from the 1980's, everyone else goodbye. Sorry Tram, no soup for you.
And his HOF credentials keep coming and coming...
As for the use of statistics, I appreciate that many of you fantasy baseball weenies are brainwashed by espn or moneyball or whatever website you use in to subscribing to all this nonesense. And a lot of it is definitely interesting. But unnecessary. I appreciate your example of two players going 2-4 in a game, but we're discussing entire careers, and discussing entire careers in the context of a player deserving credit as being one of the best ever (which is what a HOF should be considered).
If BA/HR/RBI (2B, Hits, Runs etc) - all the "simple" stats - are not sufficient to prove a player's HOF worthiness, then he probably isn't worth as much as you think. You shouldn't have to dig that deeply. My point is if you remove some terrible years (sorry, average years) from Yount's career, where he did little more than add to his personal hit total, what you have left is a very good career, but far from a HOFer. That's all, and I don't see how that can be disputed.
"OPS+ adjusted for ballpark for games played during daylight on the third tuesday of each month" is certainly a valid statistic when justifying the backup 2B your team just signed. For the truly great - i.e for every hitter in the HOF elected for his hitting ability - the simple stats are more then sufficient. But for Robin Yount, apparently they are not.
So to sum it up, in Yount's first three so-called horrible years, he was above average as a hitter among shortstops, and he was above average as a fielder among shortstops. I see no way in how anybody can say that he was killing his team those years when IN FACT was a benefit as more than half the teams in the league would have been better off having him starting over whomever they had.
The same exercise can be done for his last four years and you will get similar results.
THe initial poster who knocked Yount down to 2,200 hits needs to send flowers to the guys whom he debated with faulty methods.
Ozzie smith's OPS+ for his career was 87. Add his baserunning, and he is just a little below LEAGUE average offensively.
Alan Trammell's OPS+ was 110. Ozzie's range factor was 5.03, and Trammell's was 4.47.
Cal Ripken 112 OPS+ and 4.62 range factor
Yount.........115 OPS+ and 4.99 range factor(at ss)
Trammell.....110 OPS+ and 4.47 range factor
Ozzie...........87 OPS+ and 5.10 range factor
Yount looks better than Ripken, but he didn't play as many old man years to bring his OPS+ down. Trammell compares favorably to Ripken who is viewed as the first possible guy to get 100% of the vote! Though Ripken played two years longer than Trammell which brought down his OPS+ some. Ozzie belongs with them too, though through a different fashion.
Trammell has a gripe! YOUNT BELONGS NO DOUBT!
As for Yount, he wasn't merely average, he was an above average player his first three years. Then you seemingly want to ignore his brilliant years for some reason. So he was above average, brilliant, and above average. He compares favorably in value as Murray, Brett, and Winfield from his era because of him playing SS and CF.
Certainly, we must consider some other very relevant and telling stats. I suggest the following are equally important:
running percentage
check swing quotent
sliding frequency
SAT score
I can't wait to pull out the "range factor" factor next time someone asks me what made Ted Williams or any other legit HOF great.
Range factor is a very basic defensive measure. There are other better ones, but it gets close enough to the ballpark to use it.
I assume that you just think Errors and fielding percentage are all one needs to know. And that you would just ignore how many more balls a player gets to that others don't.
A real question...Do you understand why a SS CAN better than a 1B, even though the first baseman may have better offensive numbers?? I am curious if you understand this, or if that point needs explaining.
I'm looking at a player who batted .285 (399th best ever) with 251 HR (163rd best) and 1400 RBI (60th best). A guy who lead his league in doubles twice, and hits once, and nothing else. And I don't see a HOF, especially when you don't include his significant number of non-HOF years (you can call them average, above average, whatever the hell you want, but clearly not HOF years) where all he did was pad his career hit total. No other HOF hitter had as many bad years as Yount (except maybe Tony Perez). He was a great hitter, no doubt, but obviously my standards for HOF are a bit higher than others. I've tried to use the simplest statistics to prove that he really wasn't that good. Many of you have tried to use more complex statistics to prove that he was great. Whatever, no one will ever agree.
With all your collective YELLING and arrogance, not one of you has yet to prove or justify that Yount, w/out his benchmark 3000 hits, is a hall of famer. To me, considering nearly a 1/3 of those 3000 hits came during some very non-HOF years, he just being awarded for longevity. That's as cut and dry as I can make it.
Sorry, I suppose my tank's in the shop right now and that's the best I can do. Maybe I oversimplify. But sometimes it doesn't take a tank when a rubber band will suffice.