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Look...I wannabe a "Wannabe" small time lesser than micro level dealer. How do I begin?
razorface1027
Posts: 4,242 ✭✭
It seems very clear to me that I can't seem to comprise a collection of a certain denomination (Morgan Dollars) and hold on to it without selling it off for some ungodly reason at a loss. It then becomes apparent that my love for coins must go on with out actually purchasing coins to retain as a legacy, simply to collect or inevitable resale. So, how does one continue to be able to maintain this hobby, enjoy peering upon the coin for a brief period of time, and not end up with my arsz in a pickle whereas I have to sell them at a substantial loss. I guess what I'm trying to say is...I want my cake and eat it too. The only way I figure this can be done is by becoming a "Wannabe" dealer at less than micro level. How would one begin this quest?
All opinions, answers and flames will be appreciated.
Tom
All opinions, answers and flames will be appreciated.
Tom
What is money, in reality, but dirty pieces of paper and metal upon which privilege is stamped?
0
Comments
Why the need to sell at a loss?
T1
T1:
Welp, it's a long drawn out story. #1..I've purchased in the past as a collector and have had to sell at a loss when a emergent situation arose. #2..I don't have the savvy nor balz to be a salesman. #3.. The most crucial..PHOTOGRAPHIC skills. I wouldn't, I don't think anyway, be at a level of sales; whereas, I'd need to muster the funds to cover said photographic equipment. Moreover, I'd have to take lessons from the pros like you, Russ, Boom, Jeremy and so-on and so-forth.
David
#2) Network with some dealers that have a reputation of honesty.
#3) Buy quality coins that are high end for the grade.
#4) Develop good photographic skills and DONT emblish the pics.
#5) Give good custmoer serivce.
#6) Specialize in a nich market... but dont ignore the rest.
#7) Avoid mud slinging posts.
...my two cents.
David
#2) Network with some dealers that have a reputation of honesty Noted
#3) buy quality coins that are high end for the grade I've been able to do that on a FEW occasions. you talking RAW or SLABBED?
#4) Develop good photographic skills and DONT emblish the pics That'll take time and money to acquire the type of equipment necessary to develop the skills, and, lest we forget...LESSONS.
#5) Give good custmoer serivce. Never a problem
#6) Specialize in a nich market... but dont ignore the rest. I've noticed that over time by frequenting this board. I'm learning slowly but surely
#7) Avoid mud slinging posts. Certainly! I see no sense in it anyway.
As far as your 2 cents...THANK YOU.
Tom
You can't even pick a good football team!!
Awa, AWWWWWW, thems be fightin' words where I come from. The pain I'm feelin'.
We WILL face off this season. GUARANTEED! I got some things you'd LIKE to win, too.
You already have an email address so you're part way to becoming a dealer. Open up an ebay store and POOF...
YOU A DEALER.
Now you'll need some publicity, and you still want to act like a collector on here. Start a thread right here on the coin forum
saying "Look at my new purchase." Wait for the PM's to roll in or..... wait for the thread to die than on the BST board it goes!!!
You'll also want to put a link in your Sig line to your ebay store/or website. Reply to any thread even if it's only to type LOL
so folks can click your link. And don't forget about about starting polls as well. That keeps you in the spot-light.
And remember as we've heard on here.... "The only bad publicity in NO publicity." Heck, start a flame war if needed and some folks
like that stuff. Hope this helps, and if I can give any more suggestions please don't hesitate to ask.
OH yes forget something..... when listing a coin for sale don't forget to say "one of the best we have seen, or hand picked."
Putting the "we" part in the best we've seen is important. Ever notice the one man operations always do that?
The first thing you need to do is master Ebay. The beauty of Ebay is that if you buy a coin there, you have a reasonable expectation that you can sell the same coin for the same price as you paid. (this only applies to real auctions of course) Only buy from established sellers who have a return policy and be careful. It helps if you have good photography skills and can write a good ad. Often I can get more money than I paid for a given coin but on average it comes out about even.
I also get a fair amount of coins from auctions including Heritage. You're bidding against other dealers for the most part so you can reasonably assume that you'll get a similar price when you go to sell the coin. Many times a dealer will confirm that he was the underbidder on a coin I've just purchased. I also have a small network of other collectors who I buy and sell from, but finding someone who is looking to expand his collection and not profit from you is like pulling teeth.
Forget doing business with other coin dealers unless you're prepared to suck up to some very contemptible people. Shop dealers rely on screwing dead people for the majority of their profits, and you cannot play this game unless you're prepared to invest in a storefront and some expensive advertising. The online "wholesale" system is too expensive for small dealers to play on, and my brief experience with trading on this market is that it's FULL of fraud, false bids, false offers, childish games, misdescribed coins, and general misery.
<< <i>Shop dealers rely on screwing dead people for the majority of their profits >>
Do me a favor and put that predictable response in the opening paragraph next time. It'll save me some reading.
Russ, NCNE
Networking with other dealers gives you a two fold perk. First, you have access to coins at wholesale levels provided you provide the same level discount to them. Second, if you need faster money, you can call on them to buy some of your inventory. Dont assume that dealers dont pay premiums for nice stuff. Some of my best customers are dealers. Ignoring this section of the market is just what it sounds like.... ignoring a section of the market.
David
As I've stated in the title thread...lesser than micro level dealer. Hell, I'll be ready to push up dasies by the time I get to that degree of sales as expressed by you in the above italics. I'm just lookin to get a start on some coinage that'll yield what I paid for it or a few bucks more. I'm tired of taking a loss, and my love for the hobby becomes greater. Go figure!
Tom
Try it, and keep on coming back, IT WORKS.
It's not only a predictable response, it happens to be the truth. Of course you could easily prove me wrong by opening your books and showing us the last estate you purchased........
No? Of course you wont.
Networking with other dealers gives you a two fold perk. First, you have access to coins at wholesale levels provided you provide the same level discount to them.
Not true. Razor isn't going to be able to buy coins like a dealer therefore selling wholesale would mean selling at a loss. He dosen't have any volume anyway so another dealer would see no benefit in establishing such a business relationship. I've been there, done that. Legend's hysterical rantings against wanna be dealers are VERY typical of the attitude from established dealers, and you will be seen as an easy mark.
Second, if you need faster money, you can call on them to buy some of your inventory.
Bend over.
Ignoring this section of the market is just what it sounds like.... ignoring a section of the market.
Trust me, you don't want this market. Back stabbing, lying, bluffing, double-dealing, and just plain misery are business as usual and obvious to anyone who's spent real time on a bourse floor.
<< <i>Do me a favor and put that predictable response in the opening paragraph next time. It'll save me some reading.
It's not only a predictable response, it happens to be the truth. >>
Let me reiterate what you think is truth:
<< <i>Shop dealers rely on screwing dead people for the majority of their profits >>
Now, let me translate that for everyone:
One dealer bent me over when I was a little boy and I've never gotten over it, so ever since I've been tossing out the false accusation that they are all crooks.
<< <i>Of course you could easily prove me wrong by opening your books and showing us the last estate you purchased........ >>
Might be tough to do, since I've never purchased an estate. And, BTW oh clueless one, I don't own even a coin shop.
Russ, NCNE
I guess so.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Iwog speaks the truth. >>
No, he doesn't. He would be speaking the truth if he said "some" dealers rip off estates, but he paints them all with the same brush. That is not truth, it's a baseless accusation.
<< <i>I've overheard dealers bragging about some of the rips they got from the widows of deceased collectors. >>
And, I've witnessed dealers purchasing estates at very fair prices - quite a few times.
Russ, NCNE
Don't worry about photographic skills. 90+% of successful eBay dealers use a scanner.
Not ideal for BU coins but does a servicable job on circs.
Find a series you like and get to know the series well. That will pump up your confidence
and let you start buying and selling on a wannabe level. I started with Fine or better
Barber dimes because they are easy to grade, if you can't see the 7 letters of LIBERTY
it isn't Fine. As you get your feet wet you will quickly realize you probably already know more about
your series than most everyone buying from you.
Morgans are a tough place to start. The more competition there is in a series the more problems for the
wannabe. Start with something like Buffs or IHC. There are a ton of collectors for the circs. and the big-money
Registry people won't bother stepping on your toes.
Good luck, Steve.
No...Your advice is sound and definately noted, believe me.
Now, as far as the above in italics...DAMN that sounds familiar!
This is probably the coin dealer's favorite hobby. They thrive on telling their friends how bad they've screwed someone selling them coins.
Funny how Russ is a free market advocate, yet he will allow honest dealers (who operate with a huge disadvantage) to co-exist happily with the sharks. Beyond proving that he's basically insane and makes up economic theory as he goes along, it also shows that he's not in the real world. He'll automatically invoke the "no fair using absolutes" argument to avoid talking about the REAL problem of coin dealers destroying the hobby because he either knows the truth, or doesn't have the slightest clue about the truth.
So to make Russ happy, I'll stipulate that not all coin dealers are crooks. (a statment I never made anyway) Just most of em.
Ain't this the way of the world or have I missed something? Now I'm not talking about "Rips," but hell, if you see a way to profit and still feel like you can't lay your head correctly on the pillow at night, then ain't this the way to the bright beginnings of salesmanship? I mean I gotta be seriously missing something. People aren't in this game to lose money such as I've expressed. I'm TIRED of it.
Tom
Enter the coin industry. A widow inherits her husband's estate but doesn't have the slightest idea what the coins are worth. She seeks out the advice of a "professional" (a coin dealer) on the best way to sell her coins. The coin dealer then bids 20% of greysheet KNOWING DAMN WELL that:
A) she knows nothing about coins and
This is business as usual. This is daily practice among MOST shop dealers. The sad fact is that an agency violation like this is a crime, yet it is almost never prosecuted because the victim almost never realizes that she's a victim. I have zero tolerance for the scum sucking leeches that plague this hobby, and will continue to speak the truth at every opportunity. To answer your question razor, to see a way to profit on innocence is called fraud not salesmanship. It's no different than a telemarketer selling swamp land to a retired couple for 10 times the true value.
Just one example of a number of niches you could make a ton of money IMHO___
<<seems every maid in the USA saves this stuff, before they go home someday>>
I couldn't agree more with your post regarding salesmen. However, capitalizing on innocence IMO is indeed a crime, figuratively speaking of course, for I am not up on it as far as the literal sense because I'm not part of the juris prudential RACKET. However, I don't see being, let's say for the sake of arguement, a coin SALESMAN who ran across a widow who was looking to sell off hubby's coin collection and NOT expecting the said salesman to make a marginal profit being a crime as you've so plainly put it. . If capitalization weren't reality; henceforth, salemen wouldn't be salesmen they'd be unemployed. JMO.
I'm in no way supporting the lowlife of the coin hobby but the above activities are not of the "HOBBY" type. If you have the damn Guvmint stickin their nose in and regulatin coin deals then they will also be doin sports cards, pogs, beanie babies, and everything else that has a monetary value attached to it. While one share of stock is the same as another, not all 1903-S Morgans in PCGS63 are exactly the same or worth the same. And you can spill coffee on your stock certificate and not lose any value unless of course it happens to be a collectors item.
There are plenty of honest collectors who will help out an uninformed widow; there is no need run to a dealer for that.
No, not really. Coin collectors are still a very small part of the general population. Unless someone in the family is a coin nut, odds are the poor widow isn't going to have a clue where to take the coins.
a) Arbitrage. You recognize that a certain kind of item is valued more highly in one marketplace than in another, and you buy it in the cheap place and sell it in the expensive place. This might mean moving something from your local show to ebay, or from Heritage to the buyers at your local show or whatever. Takes a bunch of research & watching, but surely there are niches you could exploit. One was pointed out above.
b) Putting yourself in a position where people come to you with stuff to sell. If you want to reliably buy below bid, you need people to come to you wanting to sell, who don't know as much as you do about how to get maximum value for their coins. You need to look like a dealer for this. At the littlest shows, you sometimes see guys with basically their collection in their case, with prices that might be crazy marked on the coins, but the real point is the "buying" sign over their table. So, you buy below wholesale, then wholesale it off or ebay it or whatever. But you have to be where people who don't know the market are coming wanting to sell. Pay fairly, but factor in your cut.
Again, from the collector's seat, it is dawning on me how much some of these guys have to hustle to make a go of it. If you only make 15 or 20% on your average coin -- & often the markup is less that that -- you have to move a lot of 'product' to get much of anywhere.
Is true. There are three dealers in my network that cut me deals because I do the same for them.
Bend over.
No thanks, I dont want you. I'm not that way. I suggest you take your sexual advances elsewhere.
I've went to dealers in my network on several occassions and told them that I needed to raise X numbers of dollars. Every time, I was able to get it. And they paid me as if I didnt need the money. A dealer came to me about four months ago and said he was trying to raise some money to buy a house. I told him, no problem. He came over to my house for some steaks. I bought enough from him to cover what he needed.
Trust me, you don't want this market. Back stabbing, lying, bluffing, double-dealing, and just plain misery are business as usual and obvious to anyone who's spent real time on a bourse floor.
You're associating with the wrong dealers. There are honest dealers out there.... I would agree that the shaddy ones outnumber the honest ones.
David