Rubbermaid Containers

jsturman31 · July 11, 2005 6:11AM

Is it safe to store coins in Rubbermaid or Tupperware containers or should you avoid them, I plan to use silica gel inside also ?

Thanks

ms70 · July 11, 2005 6:12AM

Food quality plastics are not supposed to contain any PVC, but I wouldn't trust them personally.

Steve27 · July 11, 2005 6:12AM

Safe, all food storage containers are PVC free.

jsturman31 · July 11, 2005 6:19AM

Do they have to be food container quality or is all rubbermaid and tupperware pvc free ?

Thanks

ms70 · July 11, 2005 6:33AM

That I don't know.

BAJJERFAN · July 11, 2005 6:40AM

Tupperware makes containers out of a variety of plastic materials. As long as you use the LDPE or HDPE ones you should be ok.

Barry · July 11, 2005 7:33AM

This from the Rubbermaid web site:

The most commonly used material found in plastic food storage containers today, such as Rubbermaid's Servin' Savers®, is polypropylene. Polypropylene falls into the classification of olefin. The new material used in Stain ShieldTM is classified as an engineering grade material. Such materials are typically used in much tougher applications, like the windows of the space shuttle, or in armored vehicle windows for bulletproofing.

My guess is their new material is polycarbonate (also known as Lexan). It is pVC free as well.

BigE · July 11, 2005 7:45AM

It's great to know that my coins are in bulletproof containers in case someone shoots me trying to steal them------------------BigE

ttown · July 11, 2005 8:04AM

I have all my slab coins in one for extra protection with no issues. If your putting them in raw without an external container of some kind who knows but they are air tight.

magikbilly · July 11, 2005 12:10PM

I would not use this for storage of coins as it was not designedfor this purpose, but it is a fact that PVC is used in some food grade plastic products.

Billy

michael · July 12, 2005 3:56PM

buy the zip lock freezer bags much better for your coin storage just make sure you put them in intercept shield bags first that are airtight and then into the zip lock freezer bags

Cam40 · July 12, 2005 5:19PM

though the tupperware, etc containers may be materially safe trapping mositure inside could pose a problem for long term storage.
and introducing silca gel packs may be a good solution for that,i just dont know if there might be some chemical reaction that
could take place and cause some unforseen problem.
the idea does seem sound in theory.

magikbilly · July 12, 2005 5:48PM

Hi

Exactly Cam40 - this material is not intended for this use - there are enough potential problems without introducing added variables. Especially with Proof copper. Witness the ill conceived wood box program. As far as Zip-lock bags - again not intended for this use. I do not think a "closed system" is necessarily best for the reasons stated and others - a "breathing" system might actually be better - less concetration and no trapped mositure. I think condensate is usually seen with quick or dramatic changes in environs - not with "envoronmentally compensated" storage. It was long thought that oil paintings on strecthed linen totally sealed from the rear were afforded greater protection than unprotected counterparts - this has been shown to be untrue. Perhaps MrSpud will chime in with additional advice and info.

Billy

MrSpud · July 12, 2005 8:42PM

The book Coin Preservation by Charles Frank has a nice table in it summarizing the effects of storage on coins when different types of plastic were used. Some types of plastic are good at blocking moisture and corrosive gasses, some types block just moisture, some block neither and some have deleterious effects on the coins. I'll try to reproduce the table later on tonight after I get home from work.

The book also recommends for long term storage to not use anything with corrosive potential as holders and then to store in an airtight container with dessicant. It recommends some cheap ways to do this involving glass jars and metal canisters (unused empty metal paint cans).

Steve27 · July 12, 2005 9:42PM

Once again, all of the food storage containers, including zip-lock bags, are safe for your coins. As has been stated, you should also include a desiccant.

There are two basic problems in storing coins, PVC and moisture/humidity. The real enemy in PVC is the plasticizer, the chemical which makes the PVC soft, (di-2-ethylhexyl-phthalate (DEHP)). It leaches out of the PVC on to your coin and then starts eating into the metal. Moisture/humidity in the air contains small amounts of sulfur compounds, which along with the water, will oxidize (tone/rust) your coins. In order to prevent these problems from occurring use PVC-free airtight (although this is a misnomer because small amounts of moisture will seep through) containers along with a desiccant.

P.S. Don't listen to any maroon who talks about the preservation of oil paintings in the same sentence as the preservation of coins.

stev32k · July 12, 2005 11:29PM

If you are storing enough coins to require a fairly large container why not just use Mason jars? They are cheap, come in several sizes, and they are air tight. Like steve27 said plastic containers will absorb moisture and are not air tight.

tmot99 · July 12, 2005 11:37PM

Have a glass box built large enough to store all of your coins and then order a tank of dry nitrogen. Purge the glass box with the nitrogen. After it is purged to low moisture and low oxygen, you should allow the nitrogen to slowly keep a positive pressure into the box. This is the most secure way to prevent anything from happening to your coins.

THere are commercially available dryboxes or gloveboxes if you want to move the coins around inside the box. However, these are usually made of metal or fiberglass and many are painted. I am not sure exactly how much of the chemicals in the paint or fiberglass would affect coins, but I'm not going to trust it.

MrSpud · July 13, 2005 11:29AM

Below is the table I mentioned earlier from the book Coin Preservation by Charles Frank. The chapter goes into depth about the different types of plastic with lots more details than what is in the tables. Basically the book says that many plastics aren't good enough barriers to either moisture or gasses to be useful for protecting coins. The book also cautions that even safe plastics may be compounded with fillers, plasticizers and other modifiers that can change the properties of the plastic. The book also mentions that because plastics aren't completely impervious to moisture and gasses that unless they are really thick and airtight that they shouldn't be used for more than 6 months for storage. The book recommends airtight metal or glass containers with dessicants for longer term storage.

I would also like to add that I'd steer clear of the Polyvinylidene chloride too because I have read elsewhere that it can sometimes too be plasticized with phthalates just like PVC. Also, as some have mentioned, be careful sealing coins in airtight containers because if anything deleterious to coins (such as Paper and cardboard, cotton, wood, leather, linen, felt, jute, fiberboard) is sealed in there with the coins then problems can be magnified because of the trapped gasses given off by these things not being able to escapse and therefore posing a threat to the coins.

I personally am using a lot of various containers to store coins. I also like to put in a piece of copper foil into the container to both act as a sacrificial corrosion agent absorber and also to indicate whether or not the container is protecting the coins. If the red copper foil starts to corrode or turn brown I'll know that something isn't right.

I hope this info helps.

MrSpud · July 13, 2005 11:50AM

I found the following at Link to Tupperware Info at Organic Food Site . I'm not sure how accurate it is though. It looks legit but the focus is on food safety and it doesn't mention what fillers or additives are in the plastics mentioned (i.e. they at least contain pigments in addition to the plastic, since they don't mention the pigments there also may be other additives present that are OK for storing foods but untested for long term coin storage).

Materials Used to Manufacture Tupperware Products: 2001

The vast majority of Tupperware products for food contact applications in the current line are manufactured from polyethylene and polypropylene. Linear low density polyethylene is used in the manufacture of many seals, including very large ones. High density polyethylene is used in the manufacture of the ice cube tray, the Freeze-N-Save Container, the Jel-Ring mold and the Ice Tups Set.

Elastomeric polypropylene seals are used in special applications such as the microwave products, FridgeMart, FreezeSmart and the ice cube tray. Polypropylene is used in the manufacture of: many food storage and serving containers including: ModularMates, the One Touch Canister Set; many bowls, the Impressions line; refrigerator and freezer products with the exception of those made of polyethylene noted above, the children's feeding lines and the Crystal Wave microwave re-heatable line.

Polycarbonate, manufactured from bisphenol A, is used in the manufacture of Rock 'N Serve line, Pizza Keep' N Heat container, TupperCare baby bottle, the base of the Meals-in-Minutes Microsteamer, elegant Serving Line, Table Collection and, from time to time, tumblers.

PET and PES (Polyetherimide and Polyethersulfone) is used in the manufacture of the TupperWave line.

Liquid Crystal Copolyester is used in the manufacture of Oven Works dual ovenable containers.

Several additional materials: stainless steel, chrome plating, melamine, nylon, acetal and silicone (baby bottle nipple, teething rings, baking forms, baking mat and spatula) are used to manufacture a small number of products.

SEBS and Isoprene Copolymers are used on some products including gaskets on selected seals and knife handles to reduce slippage, or on seals for freezer to room temperature application to increase flexibility

Styrene is used in the Serenity Collection platters and the lids of the sugar and creamer set.

tmot99 · July 13, 2005 11:54AM

Although this information is good, it is far from complete. "gasses" is too general of a phrase. The permeation rate of different gases is different through different materials. What could be a good water vapor barrier might not be a good oxygen barrier. What could be a good oxygen barrier might not a good aroma barrier. What could be a good oxygen and reasonably good water vapor barrier might lose those barrier properties at different temperatures or relative humidities.

There are way too many variables when it comes to plastics to have any definitive answer whether good or bad. We know the effects of PVC. Stay away from PVC.

Again, the only safe way to protect your coins is to seal them in glass with a continuous dry nitrogen purge. This is how they preserve artifacts in museums. Oh, by the way, if you want to be sure on oxygen and moisture levels, you should get an oxygen and moisture analyzer. Or if you want to do testing of barrier properties of plastics, let me know. This is what my company makes.

magikbilly · July 13, 2005 12:06PM

<< <i>Below is the table I mentioned earlier from the book Coin Preservation by Charles Frank. The chapter goes into depth about the different types of plastic with lots more details than what is in the tables. Basically the book says that many plastics aren't good enough barriers to either moisture or gasses to be useful for protecting coins. The book also cautions that even safe plastics may be compounded with fillers, plasticizers and other modifiers that can change the properties of the plastic. The book also mentions that because plastics aren't completely impervious to moisture and gasses that unless they are really thick and airtight that they shouldn't be used for more than 6 months for storage. The book recommends airtight metal or glass containers with dessicants for longer term storage.

I would also like to add that I'd steer clear of the Polyvinylidene chloride too because I have read elsewhere that it can sometimes too be plasticized with phthalates just like PVC. Also, as some have mentioned, be careful sealing coins in airtight containers because if anything deleterious to coins (such as Paper and cardboard, cotton, wood, leather, linen, felt, jute, fiberboard) is sealed in there with the coins then problems can be magnified because of the trapped gasses given off by these things not being able to escapse and therefore posing a threat to the coins.

I personally am using a lot of various containers to store coins. I also like to put in a piece of copper foil into the container to both act as a sacrificial corrosion agent absorber and also to indicate whether or not the container is protecting the coins. If the red copper foil starts to corrode or turn brown I'll know that something isn't right.

I hope this info helps. >>

Well, this "maroon" can see these plastics are a bad idea. Metal and glass, as I posted a year ago re the inherent and factual horrors of wood storage, are indeed the best. I think anodized aluminum is at the top of the list. Thanks for the additional data MrSpud

Billy

PS - I have never seen a simple anology confuse someone so

the point was that sometimes what has been long thought to be safe is often not the case - such as PVC itself. Or wood boxes. Or leather pouches. Or keeping guns and paper in a safe with coins.
If people feel the need to deliberately use products not intended for long term storage and that pose risks, whenether potential or not, be my guest. I don't see the NEED, anymore than I see the NEED to store coins in wood. NO ONE HAS EVER posted ANY benefit from wood storage despite my requests or refuted the (voluminous) data posted to the contrary by MrSpud and myself - yet many still think it safe.

jsturman31 · July 13, 2005 12:11PM

I plan to store a bunch of non cleaned/non dipped morgan dollars that i don't wish to have graded just yet until the collection becomes a bit more complete or reality of being complete is closer. thanks for all the input and help btw.

MrSpud · July 13, 2005 12:25PM

<< <i>Although this information is good, it is far from complete. "gasses" is too general of a phrase. The permeation rate of different gases is different through different materials. What could be a good water vapor barrier might not be a good oxygen barrier. What could be a good oxygen barrier might not a good aroma barrier. What could be a good oxygen and reasonably good water vapor barrier might lose those barrier properties at different temperatures or relative humidities. >>

That is interesting Tmot99. The book actually goes into more detail regarding the gasses. I thought about scanning the whole chapter but decided against itbecause I didn't want to violate copyright rules on the Forum (I hope the table I put up is OK).

Nitrogen purging is indeed the next best thing to a vacuum. I'm a pharmaceutical scientist and I've used nitrogen blankets on lots of things that are oxygen sensitive. I have also seen bottles from different manufacturers made from the same type of plastic have different properties and even different size bottles made from the same resins have different properties. Testing is the only way do determine if something will be truly stable in any container.

For coins, I've read that if the humidity can be kept under 30% that corrosion is typically effectively inhibited. This is from a museum curating site. I can probably dig up the reference if anybody is interested. The authors did a number of studies using foil squares of different metals.

By the way, I just checked the Rubbermaid website and they say that most of their products have the recycling symbols on them so you can tell what plastic it is made out of. Here is a link to a key to what the recycling symbols mean if anybody is interested

Link with Recycling Symbols

Definately stay away from the ones with a 3 in the symbol.

magikbilly · July 13, 2005 1:35PM

<< <i>Safe, all food storage containers are PVC free. >>

Really? What you must mean is food grade plastic (and not all that is free of #3 apparently).
Ever hear of Reynolds Wrap? PVC. Almost all meats and deli items are still wrapped in PVC, as are many plastic trays in boxed cookies or chocolates, candy bar wrappers, and bottles etc.

"Although scientific evidence on leaching chemicals doesn’t yet exist for all plastics, and all plastics used in contact with food have been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, little research has been done."

What are the advantages to using any of these potentially harmful plastics mentioned in these posts? They are not "airtight", so why? PVC aside, there are a whole host of other components such as pigments etc. that are totally untested for coin storage - no surprise as these containers are not meant for this use. So, why would you choose the risk?

PS - MrSpud - we are looking at the same sites re #3 etc.

MrSpud · July 13, 2005 9:03PM

Yeah, PVC and similar plastics are still used for some food storage containers and wraps. Also, PVC is still used in some blister packing materials used for vitamins and drug products. Supposedly many plastic manufacturers have been substituting the phthalate plasticizers with adipate plasticizers for health reasons when they use these types of plastics. Of biggest concern is the potential effects the phthalates can have on babies. I haven't seen any information on how the adipate plasticizers affect coins but they are supposed to be safer for humans.

tmot99 · July 13, 2005 10:40PM

Billy:

How do you store your coins so that they are air tight? I've seen you post about not using wood. Not using plastic.

magikbilly · July 14, 2005 4:36AM

<< <i>Billy:

How do you store your coins so that they are air tight? I've seen you post about not using wood. Not using plastic. >>

I do not believe I have ever commented on how I store coins - airtight or otherwise. I have not posted to many threads about proper storage - there is enough misinformation circulating about improper storage and harmful inappropriate materials to keep one busy. The misconceptions about wood, plastic, paper and deposit boxes etc. evidenced in my original wood posts were incredible. I believe MrSpud has the corner on current storage techniques. As you may know from the threads, I sold all my Proof 10C and 5C to finance a new book and several related projects I have been asked to participate in.

Best,
Billy

lathmach · July 14, 2005 7:15AM

Forget the plastic containers.
Use a fruit jar.
That's the safest place for coins to be for any long term storage. Just can em.

Ray

MrSpud · July 14, 2005 8:34AM

At the risk of violating the copyright rules I decided to post a couple of more pages from the Coin Preservation Handbook regarding the best cheap way to store coins. It is just what many have been saying. Glass jars or metal containers with dessicant, but it looks much more sophisticated when you see it in the book

. Let me know if this is against the rules to post and I'll take it down. I'm not sure how the copyright thing goes as this is an out of print book written in 1964 and it is just a couple of pages.

Rubbermaid Containers

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