Copied Pictures, touchy topic?

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 8:06AM

It doesn't bother me if another use's my pictures on their like auctions. I don't sell coins on eBay but I do sell a other stuff. I just don't see what upsets some folks so much. Unless of course, the picture is copywritten. If the item you buy is described accurately and the picture match's the goods, so what? Emulation is the highest complement I've heard

Not trying to act as a rabble-rouser.

Somehow I've never felt compelled to act as an auction policeman.

Take Care
Ben

goose3 · July 3, 2005 8:11AM

well Ben

your speared bison might not look just like mine.

ddink · July 3, 2005 8:25AM

<< Unless of course, the picture is copywritten. >>

It is my understanding that all pictures, like all written text, is automatically copyright.

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 8:30AM

Hmmm, I've never heard that. Have you got a link?

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 8:33AM

Here's my eBay handle if you promise not to laugh at it

Some haven't been the shrewdest but the stuff I've bought I like. Greenfdhog

Take Care
Ben

Russ · July 3, 2005 8:33AM

<< Unless of course, the picture is copywritten. >>

It is copyright protected as soon as it's produced.

Using the work of others without permission is theft, period. It's also usually done by slimeballs that are selling an inferior item.

Russ, NCNE

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 8:40AM

<< 

<< Unless of course, the picture is copywritten. >>

It is copyright protected as soon as it's produced.

Using the work of others without permission is theft, period. It's also usually done by slimeballs that are selling an inferior item.

Russ, NCNE >>

Don't get so touchy now. Posted pictures and descriptions on eBay are not copywritten. Do you have proof that it is?

ddink · July 3, 2005 8:41AM

"Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form."

Scroll down a bit and you'll read this:

"The way in which copyright protection is secured is frequently misunderstood. No publication or registration or other action in the Copyright Office is required to secure copyright. "

"Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is "created" when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time."

Also note that the picture does not have to specifically say "copyright:"

"The use of a copyright notice is no longer required under U. S. law, although it is often beneficial."

This is all from the FAQ section of www.copyright.gov; certainly a reliable source

Russ · July 3, 2005 8:43AM

<< Posted pictures and descriptions on eBay are not copywritten. Do you have proof that it is? >>

By law, they are automatically copywritten.

Edit: Read ddink's link.

Russ, NCNE

ddink · July 3, 2005 8:44AM

Sorry, all that info in my previous post was from "Copyright Basics," not the FAQ.

The FAQ states:

<<
When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created.
>>

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 8:49AM

Chuckle, that is pretty broad and open for lots of interpretation. I think eBay is exempt from most of that legal mumbo-jumbo... I have yet to see ONE auction stopped because of a copied picture. Never even heard of one.

MrScience · July 3, 2005 8:50AM

I want to get the item that I paid for -- don't you? Coins on eBay are often not accurately described -- if they are described at all -- so an image is often all that a bidder has to make a bid or purchase decision. As a potential buyer, I want to be able to estimate the grade of the coin, to know if it hairlined or cleaned, and to gauge if the toning looks authentic. Except perhaps for coins costing a buck or two, I will avoid and curse sellers who do not provide an image of the exact coin being sold, and especially those who do not call attention to this fact in the auction listing. Such practices would seem to indicate either laziness or dishonesty.

Just my $0.02!

John

291fifth · July 3, 2005 8:52AM

All recent photos are automatically copyrighted.

tlhoy · July 3, 2005 8:53AM

<< Chuckle, that is pretty broad and open for lots of interpretation. I think eBay is exempt from most of that legal mumbo-jumbo... I have yet to see ONE auction stopped because of a copied picture. Never even heard of one. >>

You haven't been around here long. I've seen dozens of auctions removed by eBay for image theft.

Edit to add: eBay's Item Description and Picture Theft page

TommyB · July 3, 2005 8:55AM

If the guy had asked to use my pic, I would have gladly said ok. But he did not ask, and then he talks about his integrity. Add the fact that he is a first time seller. How do you know he really even has these sets?

TB

Russ · July 3, 2005 8:56AM

<< I think eBay is exempt from most of that legal mumbo-jumbo... >>

Wrong.

<< I have yet to see ONE auction stopped because of a copied picture. Never even heard of one. >>

eBay nuked this image thief's auctions a few days ago.

It's curious that you're so adament in your support of those who steal images.

Russ, NCNE

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 8:56AM

Granted stealing pics is unethical and I don't do it, never have. Just don't see the big deal...

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 8:58AM

<< 

<< I think eBay is exempt from most of that legal mumbo-jumbo... >>

Wrong.

<< I have yet to see ONE auction stopped because of a copied picture. Never even heard of one. >>

eBay nuked this image thief's auctions a few days ago.

It's curious that you're so adament in your support of those who steal images.

Russ, NCNE >>

Russ, and I mean Russ. I'm not supporting those who steal pictures. But, Russ and I mean Russ I just don't go around looking for the infractions either.

Ben

Russ · July 3, 2005 8:59AM

<< Just don't see the big deal... >>

The "big deal" is that it's bait and switch. In the case of the seller I linked above, he stole my images of very high grade coins and was using them to sell junk.

Russ, NCNE

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 9:02AM

Ok, now I see the issue. It's the unscrupulous sellers out there using those methods. Haven't run into one of those guys yet

Glad too.

Ben

ddink · July 3, 2005 9:04AM

Dane, it's also the fact that many sellers spend a great deal of time imaging just one coin, and for someone who has done nothing to benefit from all your work just doesn't seem right.

EDIT: ANY work is AUTOMATICALLY copyright the INSTANT it's created. How is that "broad" and "open to interpretation?"

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 9:09AM

That doesn't mean ALL intellectual work in ANY situation. I've done too much to know that isn't the case.

www.jabpublish.com

I'm the same Ben

tlhoy · July 3, 2005 9:10AM

I've spent a lot of money on my camera and lights. I spend hours perfecting my technique trying to get the perfect picture that looks like the coin I'm trying to sell, and some jerk comes along and steals MY picture. Yet you "Just don't see the big deal."

It's called image THEFT, because it's a crime.

Edit to add: I'm proud of my pictures...DON"T steal them. Ask to use them and I'll probably say yes.

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 9:12AM

<< I've spent a lot of money on my camera and lights. I spend hours perfecting my technique trying to get the perfect picture that looks like the coin I'm trying to sell, and some jerk comes along and steals MY picture. Yet you "Just don't see the big deal."

It's called image THEFT, because it's a crime. >>

Chuckle, your not listing anything

ddink · July 3, 2005 9:18AM

<< That doesn't mean ALL intellectual work in ANY situation. I've done too much to know that isn't the case. >>

It specifically mentions pictoral and written works. But since you seem to know everything, I'll assume you are an attorney and as such are better informed than everyone else on this board.

wjd283 · July 3, 2005 9:21AM

I don't care what type of seller it is,I would'nt want anyone copying my pics.(not that they're that good)but I put a lot of time into making them and feel that if smoeone is selling they should do their own work.

If my pics were as nice as some I've seen posted here I'd sue somebody for using them.

If you can't make your own pics,you should'nt have the rite to sell with smoeone else's.

JMO

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 9:22AM

<< 

<< That doesn't mean ALL intellectual work in ANY situation. I've done too much to know that isn't the case. >>

It specifically mentions pictoral and written works. But since you seem to know everything, I'll assume you are an attorney and as such are better informed than everyone else on this board. >>

Just a publisher...

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 9:23AM

<< If you can't make your own pics,you should'nt have the rite to sell with smoeone else's.

JMO >>

I agree

wjd283 · July 3, 2005 9:24AM

<< Just a publisher... >>

Well,I hope you are'nt publishing any pics without permission.

I think,if asked,a lot of people would let smoeone use their pics.

ddink · July 3, 2005 9:27AM

<< Just a publisher... >>

I forgot, publishers are well known for their legal knowledge.

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 9:29AM

<< 

<< Just a publisher... >>

Well,I hope you are'nt publishing any pics without permission.

I think,if asked,a lot of people would let smoeone use their pics. >>

I agree, I've let folks use some of our copywritten stuff before.

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 9:32AM

<< 

<< Just a publisher... >>

I forgot, publishers are well known for their legal knowledge. >>

(Why be rude, but since you insist)

If you read your LINK carefully you will see there is a word being used called GENERALLY. No go chase an ambulance or something. You should be busy this weekend...

ddink · July 3, 2005 9:44AM

I'm not a lawyer either, but the website seems pretty clear to me. Your original post states:

<< I just don't see what upsets some folks so much. Unless of course, the picture is copywritten. >>

So far we have addressed your post in two ways: a) it upsets people so much because taking pics is a time-consuming and often expensive thing, and for people to take something you spent time and money on and use it as their own tends to offend people, and b) Their pictures became copyright the moment they were created.

<<
Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are fixed in a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not be directly perceptible so long as it may be communicated with the aid of a machine or device. Copyrightable works include the following categories:

literary works;
musical works, including any accompanying words
dramatic works, including any accompanying music
pantomimes and choreographic works
pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works
motion pictures and other audiovisual works
sound recordings
architectural works
These categories should be viewed broadly. For example, computer programs and most "compilations" may be registered as "literary works"; maps and architectural plans may be registered as "pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works."
>>

The only things that are not copyright from the moment of their creation are:

<<
WHAT IS NOT PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT?
Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:

Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression (for example, choreographic works that have not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches or performances that have not been written or recorded)

Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents

Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration

Works consisting entirely of information that is common property and containing no original authorship (for example: standard calendars, height and weight charts, tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from public documents or other common sources)
>>

Look for grey areas and loopholes, but you have the answers to the questions you asked.

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 9:55AM

TO ALL:

Wish I hadn't even brought up the topic. I just was trying to get the feel for the subject and BOY, DID I. Again, here's my eBay handle if you give a rat's ass. All my pictures are open for usage ;-) I gotta go shoot fireworks with the kids.

Take Care and have a safe 4th
Ben

Greenfdhog

LucyBop · July 3, 2005 10:05AM

wow!

what part of selling a item with a image other then the actual item do you insist on not seeing a problem with.

It is as Russ sezs, the shysters and hucksters pulling the bait and switch or even selling a item they don't own, with high grade coins in particular....

wjd283 · July 3, 2005 10:22AM

<< TO ALL:

Wish I hadn't even brought up the topic. I just was trying to get the feel for the subject and BOY, DID I. Again, here's my eBay handle if you give a rat's ass. All my pictures are open for usage ;-) I gotta go shoot fireworks with the kids.

Heck,I would'nt sweat it.You just hit a touchy subject.I hope we helped out in some way or another.

ddink · July 3, 2005 10:24AM

Dane, I wouldn't worry bout it either. It IS an interesting topic to discuss.

XpipedreamR · July 3, 2005 10:27AM

Danegeld, as a publisher, for future reference you may wish to know that the term is copyrighted, not copywritten.

dthigpen · July 3, 2005 2:16PM

<< 

<< Just a publisher... >>

I forgot, publishers are well known for their legal knowledge. >>

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 2:22PM

I take it you are not in favor of copying or using public domain shareware or photographs for various purposes? Your opinion is thus noted. I like your website. It could do with a spruce-up though.

Holey Coins

pharmer · July 3, 2005 2:23PM

Guffaw, theft, pure and simple. Laugh uproariously, the law is clear as a bell...he metaphored, chucklingly.

dthigpen · July 3, 2005 2:24PM

<< I take it you are not in favor of copying or using public domain shareware or photographs for various purposes? Your opinion is thus noted. I like your website. It could do with a spruce-up though.

Holey Coins >>

No, I'm not, 100% of the photography done (As you can tell by how bad it is) was done by me.

Curious, how much revenue did your publishing company report in 2004?

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 2:26PM

<< 

<< I take it you are not in favor of copying or using public domain shareware or photographs for various purposes? Your opinion is thus noted. I like your website. It could do with a spruce-up though.

Holey Coins >>

No, I'm not, 100% of the photography done (As you can tell by how bad it is) was done by me.

Curious, how much revenue did your publishing company report in 2004? >>

Does it really matter? It's mainly my wife's project. We did have to pay a hell-of-a-lot of taxs's though.

dthigpen · July 3, 2005 2:30PM

<< 

<< 

<< I take it you are not in favor of copying or using public domain shareware or photographs for various purposes? Your opinion is thus noted. I like your website. It could do with a spruce-up though.

Holey Coins >>

No, I'm not, 100% of the photography done (As you can tell by how bad it is) was done by me.

Curious, how much revenue did your publishing company report in 2004? >>

Does it really matter? It's mainly my wife's project. We did have to pay a hell-of-a-lot of taxs's though. >>

Yes, it does matter when you're attempting to use it as a point of 'credibility' to back your asinine statements and assumptions.

LucyBop · July 3, 2005 2:33PM

<< asinine >>

what does this word mean?

dthigpen · July 3, 2005 2:34PM

2 entries found for asinine.
as·i·nine ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-nn)
adj.
Utterly stupid or silly: asinine behavior.
Of, relating to, or resembling an ass.

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 2:34PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< IYes, it does matter when you're attempting to use it as a point of 'credibility' to back your asinine statements and assumptions. >>

Listen, If you go back and read the first post in this thread you might understand the intent of the question. You see I don't get all wound up about other folks copying or using pictures which they may not have taken. That's all I was getting at.

LucyBop · July 3, 2005 2:35PM

<< 2 entries found for asinine.
as·i·nine ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-nn)
adj.
Utterly stupid or silly: asinine behavior.
Of, relating to, or resembling an ass. >>

GASP! They made a word in the dictionary for Russel?

dthigpen · July 3, 2005 2:37PM

<< 

<< Yes, it does matter when you're attempting to use it as a point of 'credibility' to back your asinine statements and assumptions. >>

Listen, If you go back and read the first post in this thread you might understand the intent of the question. You see I don't get all wound up about other folks copying or using pictures which they may not have taken. That's all I was getting at. >>

In many situations, this one in particular (Numistic Sales, these aren't mass-produced items), doing such makes the seller, unless explicitely stating otherwise in the description of their auction (And even when they do so, they are often violating copyright laws by using the photos, which you seem to disregard, which is the asinine part if you are indeed a publishing house) liable under "Bait and Switch" laws for misrepresentation of the materials sold in many States of this fine country of ours.

dthigpen · July 3, 2005 2:40PM

A question for you; if you don't seem to mind people reusing other's photographs for their own profit/gain, I'm assuming that you don't mind people republishing the material which you publish which is not under public domain for their own profit/gain, right?

Danegeld · July 3, 2005 2:40PM

<< In many situations, this one in particular (Numistic Sales, these aren't mass-produced items), doing such makes the seller, unless explicitely stating otherwise in the description of their auction (And even when they do so, they are often violating copyright laws by using the photos, which you seem to disregard, which is the asinine part if you are indeed a publishing house) liable under "Bait and Switch" laws for misrepresentation of the materials sold in many States of this fine country of ours. >>

Yes Poindexter, this has already been addressed and I have voiced my distaste on that situation. Anything else?

Copied Pictures, touchy topic?

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