Silver Eagles wear INCREDIBLY Quickly... an hour and the coin is noticeably AU!
airplanenut
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Today was my last day in NJ... the official move is next week, but I'm out of state working starting Monday, and this weekend we're in the new house in Baltimore. After I boxed up all of my coins, I had lying out some 40% silver halves, and an eagle that I've been trying to tone in the window in a foam-lined SAE box. The coin didn't really tone well, so I said screw it, and today it became a pocket piece. With nowhere for the halves to go, to the pocket they went, as well... within an hour, the eagle had very noticeable lustre breaks along the leg, and elsewhere on the coin--it's already AU!
I figured it would wear down, but not this fast... and noticeably! To PO-01 and beyond!
Jeremy
I figured it would wear down, but not this fast... and noticeably! To PO-01 and beyond!
Jeremy
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On a related note, Having just gotten back from a trip to Europe, I noticed Euros wear quickly, too, and their pretty ugly with wear - much more so than our coins.
(edited for typo)
<< <i> an eagle that I've been trying to tone in the window in a foam-lined SAE box. Jeremy >>
Jeremy while at MIT you'll probably invent a toning machine...
09/07/2006
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<< <i>Do you keep your keys in the same pocket as the coin? >>
Sometimes. Mostly it keeps company with a 2001 SAC and 1921 crown.
09/07/2006
Box of 20
work can wear a coin down to VF in a single day. The composition is probably the second most im-
portant factor. Gold wears much faster than silver which usually wears faster than copper and nic-
kel is among the most resistent to wear. Size of the coin can be critical sice the larger coins tent to
"float on top" of the coins and smaller ones can sink and be protected by others.
A lot of the wear is audible. Each time the coins clink together a little more metal is sloughed off the
high points.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Cladking---What kind of strenuous work will wear a coin down to VF in only a single day? >>
Use a large silver coin in loose fitting jeans with a few other smaller coins.
Any sort of constant strenuous activity will work from jumping jacks to ditch digging. Running
will do it and even bike riding could. You need any activity that will keep the coins clinking.
into a VF in one day of sitting in one's pocket. My initial thought is that would be impossible. I recall as a kid rubbing coins for up to an hour deliberately to see what would happen. And surprisingly not much did. Now that is "strenous" abuse if you ask me. A few hours in one's pocket should not lower a coin from Gem UNC to AU. If you count that surface scuffing as "wear" then most every 19th century mint state slabbed coin in existence is AU. That's a hardline and probably technically correct since most all of these coins actually circulated and were abused. But it's not in line with slab grading definitions. Most 19th century coins circulated (except Morgans and large gold pieces) and show high point friction of one sort or another.
That new pocket piece silver eagle with the high point friction and scuffing would likely still grade MS65 to MS67 if it were a 19th century seated half or dollar. And the amount of wear needed to lower to VF is not a linear function. My feelings were that most mint state seated material slabbed as MS60-62 probably circulated for up to a few years before being plucked out. The MS64 and 65 pieces may have circulated for months or even a year imo. 19th century silver coins were 10% copper which made have decreased their wear rates. The silver eagles are less than 1% copper so that could account for some small variations.
roadrunner
be unique for each individual series and each individual coin and will not be constant
from unc to Poor. It's also true that there is much more wear between between some
grades than others but this is caused by how collectors define grades. The amount of
wear if defined as the mass of metal sloughed off in a collision will remain nearly con-
stant as a coin wears. (there can be harder metal on the surface and as a coin lightens
its momentum, and hence damage, will be reduced in many collisions.)
This may appear less linear than it is because they wear from the highest points down
and the amount of surface being exposed increases as time goes on. The rim does a
lot to protect the design in higer grades but very little in lower grades because wear
also has a tendency to affect it in such a way as to grind it slightly convex like a lens.
Coins wear better in modern times partly because they are made of such a hard durable
metal and because people tend to use them a little more "carefully". They don't clink in
men's pockets and aren't often slammed on counters to impress women or get the clerk's
attention. But wear is and always has been largely episodic. It occurs when a coin gets
caught up in a poiker game or when a jogger runs down the street clinking. The older
coins got this sort of wear in large doses in the pockets of workmen. There is very little
of this sort of work in modern times because it is almost all done by machines. Many coins
will simply never be exposed to much of this because the odds are so low in each transac-
tion.
<< <i> I recall as a kid rubbing coins for up to an hour deliberately to see what would happen. And surprisingly not much did. Now that is "strenous" abuse if you ask me.
roadrunner >>
Rubbing is good wear for coins and some is usually needed for the wear to appear
natural but rubbing will not necessarily remove much metal. If the coefficient of fric-
tion and force is sufficiently low there will be much more of a polishing action than
wear. If you rub a couple clad quarters together with a couple pounds of force your
finger will turn black in only a few minutes.
Natural wear is a combination of damage from minor collisions and polishing.
pocket all alone. Many of us no longer even carry change as a rule in our pockets except when buying something. Your reasoning assumes other metal coins being stored with it and mixing like a tumbler. Totally different reactions. I guess one could do a study to determine what % of a coin is worn by metal to metal contact vs plain hand-to-hand rubbing.
Erasing the mint luster on a coin is typically other than linear since first you need to wear down the high points of the coin (central highpoints and rims). Once you get past that first stage then much more of the coin is exposed for overall wear. You can describe this is saying that little detail gets removed from the die to MS60 or even AU-50. Once most of the coin is exposed around the VF level the whole coin is exposed to wear.
It's hard to duplicate 40 years of wear in an hour or a day. But I still disagree that any silver eagle placed in one's pocket with even other coins, will wear down to VF in a day. Jogging won't do it in my opinion. But go ahead and find someone in your neighborhood who can jog for 12 hours straight. The one exception might be a jack-hammer operator (or circus trampolist), but again, go find me one of those who can jack hammer continuously for 8-12 hours a day (and no fair changing out operators....we're talking about one person, one pocket, and one silver eagle here). Then again how many coins get to live in the pocket of jack hammerer? Smashing coins together under pressure is also not the norm and rarely occurs once outside the mint.
<< <i>
It's hard to duplicate 40 years of wear in an hour or a day. But I still disagree that any silver eagle placed in one's pocket with even other coins, will wear down to VF in a day. Jogging won't do it in my opinion. But go ahead and find someone in your neighborhood who can jog for 12 hours straight. The one exception might be a jack-hammer operator (or circus trampolist), but again, go find me one of those who can jack hammer continuously for 8-12 hours a day (and no fair changing out operators....we're talking about one person, one pocket, and one silver eagle here). Then again how many coins get to live in the pocket of jack hammerer? Smashing coins together under pressure is also not the norm and rarely occurs once outside the mint. >>
Using a jackhammer is cheating.
But the simple fact is that many people used to actually work as much as about ten hours per day.
They did not supervise machinery and take two hour coffee breaks. While they were working they
were expected to actually make progress toward burying a pipe or moving a pile of dirt. If you do
this kind of work with a pocket full of coins with the proper distribution then you'll find that in about
seven hours work you'll wear out one pair of gloves, one tenth of a pair of cotton pants and as much
as a couple coins.
This kind of work is almost not done anymore but as much as half of the working population used
to do it at least sometimes back around the turn of the last century. Today there is machinery for
nearly everything (even busting up concrete). Indeed there are even machines in which you can
sit in an airconditioned cab to bust up concrete. It's very easy on the coins.
There's "always" a force rubbing two coins together. Frequently it's only the coins own weight so
this is one of the most important factors in how quickly a coin will wear. It's often the coin's own
weight but also the weight of other coins above it such as in a coin counter and the like. Even sit-
ting in a shrink wrap roll there can be a little wear if there is vibration or movement. Set a loosely
packed roll of coins next to a busy intersection with lots of trucks for a couple decades. You'll see
wear. In a pocket the coins are being forced together by the stretch of the pocket and the bouncing
around of the other coins. Forces can actually get extremely high under freak conditions. Just as
several small waves can combine to form a freak wave in the ocean many of the small forces in a
pocket can combine to make a large force against a coin in your pocket. Really it's this same phen-
omenon which causes you to feel the objects in your pockets sometimes. Indeed in very large quan-
tities it can even deform or damage the objects. While most coin wear is caused by rubbing against
other coins rubbing against anything will cause wear. Wear is very episodic in most all cases.
Today wear is caused much more by counting machines and light handling but even today a nice new
BU coin might trade hands twenty or thirty times without showing any signs of circulation. Indeed, a
brand new quarter will average about six transactions before it's no longer unc. In the 1930's six
transactions might have it down as low as VG.
I took the Pepsi challenge:
I placed 3 BU state quarters in with 8 other coins (4 old Washingtons, a Roosy, and 3 Lincolns). Placed them all in a sock to simulate a pants "pocket." I shook them about 3 times a second for 10 minutes. I ensured that I received a good jostling effect to create damage. That's about 1500 "interactions" in those 10 minutes. On two of the state quarters I could see some chatter starting to form in the fields, but nothing that I could call high point rub. Both would be called MS61 or better by current standards. But the luster was obviously weakened. The 3rd coin had less damage and still had a full blazing cartwheel intact in all directions. Call in MS63.
In doing this test it became apparent that how the coins fit in the pocket play a key role. I ensure my coins rattled perfectly. Other pockets could be tighter and keep the coins tightly bunched so that don't rattle. A woman's purse is entirely different. No effect there.
Probably more than half of the change in the past 40 years went through woman's pursue's and received no real jostling imo.
After 1500 transactions in my sock "pocket" it's pretty clear this was far more abusive by a long shot than a mere 6 hand to hand exhanges. I'd also say that this was more damage than a coin woudl receive in 8 hours from say a roofer doing shingles, someone shoveling or sawing/chopping/walking/etc. Unless one's definition of UNC is "gem BU" it is very difficult to detect any difference in high point metal loss after 10 minutes of continuous banging around.
A phD thesis could probably be written on the subject but I don't think any of us has the time. I still feel coins are far more resistant to wear than they are given credit for.
roadrunner
<< <i>Cladking, I still find it hard to believe that in 6 transactions today a coin is noticeably different...or that one could even tell the difference between it and another BU coin. I think it would take hundreds of transactions to impart noticeable wear on the high points of a coin.
I took the Pepsi challenge:
I placed 3 BU state quarters in with 8 other coins (4 old Washingtons, a Roosy, and 3 Lincolns). Placed them all in a sock to simulate a pants "pocket." I shook them about 3 times a second for 10 minutes. I ensured that I received a good jostling effect to create damage. That's about 1500 "interactions" in those 10 minutes. On two of the state quarters I could see some chatter starting to form in the fields, but nothing that I could call high point rub. Both would be called MS61 or better by current standards. But the luster was obviously weakened. The 3rd coin had less damage and still had a full blazing cartwheel intact in all directions. Call in MS63.
In doing this test it became apparent that how the coins fit in the pocket play a key role. I ensure my coins rattled perfectly. Other pockets could be tighter and keep the coins tightly bunched so that don't rattle. A woman's purse is entirely different. No effect there.
Probably more than half of the change in the past 40 years went through woman's pursue's and received no real jostling imo.
After 1500 transactions in my sock "pocket" it's pretty clear this was far more abusive by a long shot than a mere 6 hand to hand exhanges. I'd also say that this was more damage than a coin woudl receive in 8 hours from say a roofer doing shingles, someone shoveling or sawing/chopping/walking/etc. Unless one's definition of UNC is "gem BU" it is very difficult to detect any difference in high point metal loss after 10 minutes of continuous banging around.
A phD thesis could probably be written on the subject but I don't think any of us has the time. I still feel coins are far more resistant to wear than they are given credit for.
roadrunner >>
Certainly all transactions are not created equally. That six are required to wear a coin
to AU is based on usage estimates by the FED. Certainly the track that led some to your
sock might have been a tortuous one and does highlight that wear tends to be episodic.
See ya guys!
Herb