Days Before Professional Grading in Coins and Cards

Danegeld · June 28, 2005 9:58AM

Who here wishes for the simple days before professional grading became so prevalent? I remember when a trip to the coin shop was a special treat and the skills one gleaned from the red-book, blue-book, or black-book were all you had to guide both the buyer and the seller. I sure do...

Take Care
Ben

McBee · June 28, 2005 10:04AM

I'm still right there, being a new collector. I like to look at the coins in the coin shop, and always take a grandchild or two along with me when I go.

I admire most of the coins posted here and covet some of them - but with my budget and my particular goals have never bought one graded, and probably never will.

What a great hobby where there's room for us all to enjoy it in our own ways.

Fairlaneman · June 28, 2005 10:30AM

<< <i>Who here wishes for the simple days before professional grading became so prevalent? I remember when a trip to the coin shop was a special treat and the skills one gleaned from the red-book, blue-book, or black-book were all you had to guide both the buyer and the seller. I sure do...

Take Care
Ben >>

Ben those old days were sort of one sided if you were not a experienced collector. Dealers had access to many more coins and had a much better feel for what a coin graded. Many dealers knew that a coin was a MS63 but still would put MS65 on it. In this age of slabs you still see the same thing. A coin case with both slabbed and raw coins will back up this thought.

Nowdays it is still fun to venture to a show or shop. The odds have evened out consderably between collector and dealer. Atleast now if you buy a slabbed coin chances are it will be graded within a point of what it actually is. Raw coins also can be compared to slabs and then the collector can make up his mind whether the shop grade is correct or off by a half mile.

The old days were fun for collectors and the new days can be just as much fun if you let it be.

Short disclaimer: Not all dealers over grade their raw coins now or in the old days. Many did then and do now also.

Ken

Shamika · June 28, 2005 10:37AM

The old days were great for a kid on a tight budget. However, for a big spender it must have been like playing Russian Roulette.

koynekwest · June 28, 2005 11:40AM

I remeber those days well. One of the BIG advantages of slabs, though, is authentication-at least by the reputable companies.

291fifth · June 28, 2005 11:44AM

The "good old days" weren't. Dealers would buy at one grade and sell at another. They still do when it comes to raw coins.

DSH1963 · June 28, 2005 11:52AM

BEEN IN THIS HOBBY SINCE 1975 NEVER MET MANY OF THOSE CROOKED DEALERS THAT YOU PEOPLE TALK ABOUT MOST OF THE TIME YOU JUST HAD TO PASS ON OVERGRADED COINS AND YES YOU DID HAVE TO LEARN TO GRADE YOU KNOW BUY THE COIN NOT THE PLASTIC
DAVID

DSH1963 · June 28, 2005 11:54AM

NOW THE DEALERS JUST RESUBMIT A COIN UNTIL THEY GET A HIGHER GRADE THINGS HAVE NOT CHANGED THAT MUCH

roadrunner · June 28, 2005 12:01PM

Back in 1975, nearly every brick and mortar dealer within 50 miles of me was selling overpriced junk as a rule. There were few exceptions. It really was a field day for the dealers. 1980-1982 was the first time many collectors realized what a hammering they took. I also recall fondly that in the 1970's nearly every display ad retailer was also off the charts with respect to honest grading and value. Again, there were few exceptions. The field is far more level today even with crackouts and somewhat variable TPG grading.

roadrunner

majorbigtime · June 28, 2005 12:01PM

The good 'ol days weren't that good. The coin was "gem' when buying. a "slider" when selling. Fakes were sold as the genuine article. Slabs have their pluses and minuses IMO, but, on balance, we are better off with 'em than without 'em.

Artist · June 28, 2005 3:25PM

Ah the good old days...

I was 11 years old in 1983, which was when I started buying coins from dealers on a regular basis. I grew up in relatively small town that only had two coin dealers to choose from.

"Dealer A" sold me one of the first coins I ever bought: an 1898-O Morgan Dollar with a photo certificate from ANACS declaring it an MS 63/65. (Remember those?) I think I paid about $80.00 for it, (probably 4-6 months savings at the time.) I remember the thing that impressed me most about it was how shiny it was...

A short time later, I showed the coin to "Dealer B" who immediately gave me a lesson on ills of cleaning, explaining that my coin had been "dipped." Feeling cheated, I took the coin back to "Dealer A" to ask for a refund. On the contrary, "Dealer B" asked me to leave his premises, repeating the words "You dipped it! You dipped it!" as walked out. (I still remember that - quite surreal given the fact the guy knew very well that he was the one who "dipped it," not me.)

Suffice it to say that that was then end of my relationship with "Dealer A." From then on, it was "Dealer B" all the way. Furthermore, my experience was confirmed a few years later when "Dealer A" was caught selling certain key dates with added mint-marks.

Over the years, I bought many coins from "Dealer A." At first I acquired mostly circulated type stuff - three cent coins, worn seated issues, etc.. But before too long, I wised up and began purchasing the nicest uncirculated coins I could afford - Mercury Dimes mostly, but some Morgans and Walkers as well. I was very passionate about collecting, and some of that passion rubbed off on my father...

Since "Dealer B" was the only coin dealer I would do business with, most of my (and in turn my father's) numismatic eduaction, came from him. And so when he began advising my father as to which coins might prove a good investment, my father listened. One of his first purchases was 1927 St. Gaudens $20.00 - about a $1,000.00 for what "Dealer B" said was an MS63. (Currently that coin is an NGC MS61.) Soon, my Dad shelled out $9,500.00 for 1900 Proof Morgan, and $12,500.00 for an 1879 Proof Trade Dollar. To be fair, those purchases were made at the height of Merril Lynch era of silver dollar investing, and so I don't think the prices paid were terribly out of line with sheet values for such top quality proofs. Unfortunately however, these coins were not top quality proofs.

A few weeks after my father bought these coins, I discovered multiple hairlines on the 1900 Morgan. Even worse, I observed that the Trade Dollar, almost black with toning, only had an irredescent luster on the obverse side, but appeared cloudy on the reverse. As such, I advised my father to return the coins. Predictably, when he took them back, "Dealer B" insisted that he was not in a position to buy back the coins. He reasoned that because the market had gone so sky high, that the only way to maximize their value would be to consign them to an auction.

Realizing what would probably happen if he did try to sell these questionable coins at auction, my father opted to hold onto them and hope that time balanced out his misfortune. Currently the Morgan dollar is an NGC PF-63, and the Trade Dollar is in an NCS Authentic Only holder. (When I asked the NGC table at Long Beach a few years ago why the coin body-bagged, they explained "Cleaned, Artifical Toning, Altered Surfaces, Environmental Damage - take your pick.") So sadly I would say my Dad still has a ways to wait...

Eventually, I became suspicious of all my coins. "Dealer B" had always said he would buy them back at the grade I bought them at, but when I decided to take him up on his offer, the market had conveniently dropped 50% - 80%. That would have been in about 1986. By age fourteen, I was incredibly cynical about coins - what had once been a passionate interest had been reduced in my mind to nothing more than a bitter subject.

My own experience was further confirmed when I heard a while later that "Dealer B" had gotten in trouble for some of the same 'added mint-mark" practices that had gotten "Dealer A" in trouble years before.

*

I am very lucky that my love of coins returned. I can't really explain it - just one day that passion that had first drawn me to the hobby as a child began to flicker again. At first I started looking though my old collection. Soon I found myself studying pictures on the Heritage website. Then the day I actually took time off work to drive down to Long Beach, paid $10 for parking and another $4 for admission, just to see the 1933 $20; and there, looking at all the beautiful coins on display, I knew I wanted to come back. A short time later, I sold most of my old stuff on Ebay, (ironically, I did really well on all that circulated type stuff thanks to sheer inflation!) and bought nicer stuff. Today I have a collection that I could have only dreamed about as a kid in that small town.

And you know what? This time around I really like TPGs for the stability and the guarantee they provide. I enjoy Ebay for all the coins one can find there, and for how easy it makes getting top dollar for for relatively common coins. And I especially love this forum for all the things there are to learn here, and even better for the sense of center I gain from hearing everyone's differnet opinions. If these things had been around in the 1980s, I beleive my experience as a YN would have much different and vastly improved.

As I see it, no matter what the parameters are for this hobby, there will always be people that are less educated than others, and other people who will take advantage of them. There are 'angles' in every market, and today's is no exception. However, I think the advances that have been made in the hobby over the last twenty years have helped the average collector immeasurably more than the crooked dealer, and in my opinion, these are the good old days.

magikbilly · June 28, 2005 4:13PM

<< <i>BEEN IN THIS HOBBY SINCE 1975 NEVER MET MANY OF THOSE CROOKED DEALERS THAT YOU PEOPLE TALK ABOUT MOST OF THE TIME YOU JUST HAD TO PASS ON OVERGRADED COINS AND YES YOU DID HAVE TO LEARN TO GRADE YOU KNOW BUY THE COIN NOT THE PLASTIC
DAVID >>

Well, who was grading those overgraded coins if not the dealers you mention?

Billy

Deb048gold · June 28, 2005 4:59PM

Artist,

Very well said! I couldn't agree more!

I wasn't collecting back in the 80's and I can just imagine what it was like. The wild west!
Our hobby deals in serious money and can bring out the worst in humanity!

I am grateful for TPG's. The hobby isn't perfect but it's head and shoulders above where it was 20 years ago!

PerryHall · June 28, 2005 5:01PM

<< <i>The good 'ol days weren't that good. The coin was "gem' when buying. a "slider" when selling. Fakes were sold as the genuine article. Slabs have their pluses and minuses IMO, but, on balance, we are better off with 'em than without 'em. >>

The bad old days: many counterfeits, altered coins, overgraded coins, polished coins, tooled coins, cleaned coins,etc were in the marketplace and a new collector paid dearly for their educations. Without the TPG services, mailorder buying was almost impossible without getting screwed. The bad old days sucked.

mrearlygold · June 29, 2005 12:04PM

Those good old days almost destoyed the hobby and had the potential of bring in serious third party "policing" and regulation by the government.

It it wasn't for the forsight of people lke David Hall, we would see a different business.

And it wouldn't be a better one either.

Tom

DHeath · June 29, 2005 12:43PM

You guys that long for the good ole days can time travel if you'd like, but give me the internet. I have the opportunity to buy from collectors, non-collectors, and dealers all over the world from my den.

There are two kinds of individuals selling collector coins raw, those that can grade, yet choose not to holder their coin (for various reasons), and those that are selling coins that should be holdered that aren't. The storefronts used to get all the traffic, the estate lots, the forced sells, the non-collector stuff. Now it frequently end up online. The TPG's are sucking up the nice raw stuff as fast as they can, but there are still bunches of nice raw coins to be had at raw coin prices. In 10 years, many will look back on this period as the best of times. You can buy based on your skills if you're so inclined, and there is a real market when its time to sell. I expect thats why the services are so busy.

rmoss · June 29, 2005 2:35PM

Had a bunch of what were supposed to be uncirculated coins I bought at the local coin club shows back in the 60's. Recently I shipped some of them to my dealer to get his view on them. I got back a report of AU's, PVC, sliders, cleaned, and various and sundry other things that would keep them from being certified. Wonder why I only buy slabbed coins these days.

AlaBill · June 29, 2005 7:49PM

Artist,

A great post and a reminder of what things were. I am always aware of one fact, it is much harder to sell that to buy. This applies to a lot of luxury and hobby items, especially coins.

roadrunner · June 29, 2005 8:29PM

BEEN IN THIS HOBBY SINCE 1975 NEVER MET MANY OF THOSE CROOKED DEALERS THAT YOU PEOPLE TALK ABOUT MOST OF THE TIME YOU JUST HAD TO PASS ON OVERGRADED COINS AND YES YOU DID HAVE TO LEARN TO GRADE YOU KNOW BUY THE COIN NOT THE PLASTIC

Let's just say that a large number of the dealers still around from the 1970's were probably of questionalbe tactics and grading back then. Just because there are slabs today and they have "reformed" doesn't erase the past. Send me a PM and I'll provide you a brief list (LOL). There were very few "saints" back in the pre-slab era and reputations today have little bearing on it.

roadrunner

Days Before Professional Grading in Coins and Cards

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