why is the 3C Nickel series the most famous one for die clashes?

1907Quarter · June 25, 2005 1:19PM

just got a wicked one that I'll post soon that has tripling in the die clashes! Obviously the dies get together without planchet and then gets serious about making clash coins-why is this series the most prevalent?

mrdq · June 25, 2005 1:31PM

As a percentage of total years made, that may be a correct statment because of the somewhat limited run but in the half dime series of seated coins there's a LOT of them clashed. I think all denominations suffer from this inherent flaw in the system of smacking together heavy metal objects.

Curley · June 25, 2005 1:36PM

Sure you don't mean 3-cent SILVER?

TommyType · June 25, 2005 2:04PM

I've heard something that I'm not sure I believe that might apply here.....

Die pressure is controlled, along with actual pressure of the machine, by the spacing of the dies. In other words, at maximum travel, the distance of between the dies help determine the strength of the strike. (Someone tell me if this totally wrong).

Why it's applicable in this case: 3-cent nickels were the first high percentage nickel coins, and they were still learning the requirements. They set the dies close together to help strike this tough metal, and that left more prominant die clashes when a planchet inevitably failed to feed. (This might explain why, generally, there are fewer die clashes late in the 3-cent nickel series...they got better at it).

As for half dimes and 3-cent silvers, they are such thin coins to begin with, that no matter what the dies are going to be close together resulting in prominant clashes when a planchet isn't in the coining chamber.

Discuss.....

tmot99 · June 25, 2005 10:56PM

I think TommyType is right. Nickel being a harder metal, it required more pressure in each strike.

I am trying to find a really cool die clashed 3C nickel. Since Jeremy posted his, that is what I am looking for.

keets · June 25, 2005 11:02PM

you should have no trouble, just pay close attention to the early years of the series. i seem to find many date 1865, 1866 and 1868. quite often an almost total outline of either the wreath or portrait of Liberty is clearly visible.

the trick is finding a nice MS clashed 3CN with tones of pink and Nickel blue. those are keepers for sure.

PerryHall · June 25, 2005 11:08PM

TommyType---You are correct. Die pressure is controlled by die spacing. The closer the dies are spaced the higher the striking pressure.

PerryHall · June 25, 2005 11:15PM

Speaking of die clashes, the type II gold dollar is fairly scarce WITHOUT die clashes. It seems virtually every one of them has a die clash and some have evidence of multiple die clashes where there is a slight rotation of the dies between clashes. I think they are neat and make the coins more interesting.

CaptainRon · June 26, 2005 12:39AM

IHC's are also known for some pretty cool clashed dies, Here is a pretty cool one, that shows strong clashing and the Obv, and nearly all of liberty's head on the reverse.

NumisOxide · June 26, 2005 12:53AM

CaptainRon,
Awesome IHC clash.

Sunnywood · June 26, 2005 1:27AM

Small coins - 3CN, 3CS and gold dollar - are the most likely candidates for clashing. Probably has something to do with the way the small planchets were fed into the press. Evidently, sometimes a planchet didn't go where it was supposed, and BANG !!! Die clash. I am not as familiar with the half dimes, but I suspect you would find a lot of clashes there too, for the same reason.

Best,
Sunnywood

tmot99 · June 26, 2005 1:45AM

That's a cool IHC clash. I have seen one that had the whole wreath showing on the front. It was sold long before I even had a shot at it.

Half dimes have a lot of clashes. Here is one on an 1853 with arrows. You can see the whole date on the reverse.

1907Quarter · June 26, 2005 6:11AM

so here is my new 3cn. notice the tripling of the clash(Liberty's portrait). Can I assume that the die (obv or rev) must've moved twice(then clashed,) before the my coin was actually minted?

CarlWohlforth · June 26, 2005 6:24AM

I've seen more clashes on the 3 cent silver than the nickel. The T2 $ I recently had showed a clash as well.

1907Quarter · June 26, 2005 6:57AM

shylock · June 26, 2005 8:02AM

Cool clash 1907Quarter.

Besides the size of the coin I think the time frame has a lot to do with it too. The best example for clashes are IH cents, mass produced with the least consideration for quality control. 1865 IH's are the king of clashed IH's, and 1865 3 Cent Nickels may not be far behind. Dies were kept in use way beyond their life span.

shylock · June 26, 2005 8:22AM

Your 3 Cent Nickel reverse reminds me of two "sister" copper-nickel IH clashes I sold on EBay, raw and very cheap

1907Quarter · June 26, 2005 8:46AM

cool Shylock! But how does the die shift so easily in the production? Why is it so easy for a planchet to miss its destination?

PerryHall · June 26, 2005 9:07AM

In addition to numerous die clashes, copper nickel 3 cent coins seem to have more than their fair share of 180 degree rotated dies. If you look at the reverse die up side down, it doesn't look that much different than when its right side up.

shylock · June 26, 2005 9:08AM

cool Shylock! But how does the die shift so easily in the production?

The question is how do two dies slam together without a planchet between them, and how is that error not caught, or cared about, after many subsequent coin strikes? The Mint was in rush mode to produce cents and other lower denominations during the mid-1860's. The guys running the presses never imagined a 21st Century coin collecting community examining their product on the PCGS forum

airplanenut · June 26, 2005 9:10AM

Here's mine... even Bill Fivaz was really impressed with the number and strength of the clashes

shylock · June 26, 2005 9:18AM

Airplanenut -- I've seen lots of reverse 3 Cent die clashes but that's the mother of all obverse clashes. Doubled and tripled in some areas, very cool coin.

MAD4MORGANS · June 26, 2005 9:22AM

Die Clashes!! THEY BE AWESOME!!

1907Quarter · June 26, 2005 9:44AM

The guys running the presses never imagined a 21st Century coin collecting community examining their product on the PCGS forum

poor foresight!!

but mechanically speaking, how do the dies shift then clash twice before the coin is struck?

Crackout · June 26, 2005 10:24AM

Cool die clashes!

how do the dies shift then clash twice before the coin is struck?

I imagine the slight difference in where the dies clashed (a couple thousandths of an inch probably in airplanenuts's example), is within the tolerance level for the travel of the dies - especially without a planchet in between. And the "clash twice" does not have to happen successively - it could clash, some coins are then produced (with one image on the coin), miss feed a planchet and another clash (now two halo images) and some more coins produced - then someone finally sees the quality problem and removes the dies from service.

Here's my example that is also just slightly off center:

1907Quarter · June 26, 2005 11:36AM

Jeremy-cool triples!! choral singing and die clashes!!

Crackout: great splainin!!

1907Quarter · June 26, 2005 11:39AM

so the multiple clash COULD be the result of ONE die tangling? Could the dies sort of bounced in that millisecond according to your explaination?

airplanenut · June 26, 2005 12:14PM

<< <i>Airplanenut -- I've seen lots of reverse 3 Cent die clashes but that's the mother of all obverse clashes. Doubled and tripled in some areas, very cool coin.

>>

Paul, actually, it's 4 full clashes on the obverse, and 5 on the reverse

elwood · June 26, 2005 12:30PM

How bout this one?
If I'm not mistaken this was Russ Logans coin. Nice provenance

solid · June 26, 2005 1:39PM

1907Quarter - that is a cool clash!

Here is one I found awhile back - it has a nice clash, and also had dies rotated
to medallic alignment!

Ken

shylock · June 28, 2005 7:18AM

so the multiple clash COULD be the result of ONE die tangling? Could the dies sort of bounced in that millisecond according to your explaination?

I know little about the minting process from this era but I'd guess the dies chattered against each other since there was no resistence (no planchet) between them.

The ultimate question is how did off-center clashes, like this 1880 S1, occur? Did the obverse die fall loose from the press, striking the reverse die in both a rotated and off-angle manner? A question I've posed here many times and another coin I sold on EBay for a very reasonable price.

IrishMike · June 28, 2005 7:32AM

Speaking of 1865 and photos curtesy of shylock.

shylock · June 28, 2005 8:04AM

IrishMike -- you own the mother of all reverse IH clashes, hands down.

IrishMike · June 28, 2005 8:22AM

Thanks shylock but you owned the prettiest. That 1880 was spectacular.

why is the 3C Nickel series the most famous one for die clashes?

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