Has this coin been damaged by crackout artists ???

Sunnywood · June 22, 2005 11:27PM

The image on the left is the beautiful 1900-O Barber quarter that was offered in the Heritage sale of the Hugon collection on January 15, 2005. The coin was in an NGC MS67* holder. Now the coin has just shown up in Heritage's auction previews of the upcoming ANA Signature Sale in San Francisco. The image on the right (or below if you have a smaller monitor) is from the auction previews. Now, I understand that the two images were taken under different lighting conditions. But I am concerned about what is going on at the date. Have the surfaces been altered or damaged? The coin is now in a different NGC MS67* holder. Why? My guess is that is was tried for corssover and failed, so it was then cracked out and submitted to PCGS and came back as a 66, so it was then cracked out again and sent back to NGC to get it back in the 67* holder. And now, with nothing having been gained by all this handling, the coin is being put back in an auction. What a shame to subject this beautiful coin to such excessive handling. Why would anyone mess with a coin like this?

ecos · June 22, 2005 11:33PM

Miss Liberty is frowning on the coin to the right; she didn't like being cracked-out.
It is hard to believe that a change in lighting would cause such a dramatic difference in appearence. But it also hard to believe that someone would think about messing with such a beautiful and high grade coin. But, I'm not a crack head, so I wouldn't know.

ms70 · June 22, 2005 11:35PM

Are you sure that's the same coin? I see some similarities but I see differences too.

K6AZ · June 22, 2005 11:36PM

This is one that you would need to have someone look at. That area around the date looks like sticker residue, though I don't know why someone would put a sticker on that part of a slab.

Sunnywood · June 22, 2005 11:39PM

Now here is another Hugon Barber quarter that is showing up in the ANA auction. This 1913-P was in a PCGS MS66 holder at Hugon, but it fetched strong PQ money. Now it is in a PCGS MS67 holder, but there appear to be some bits of plastic trapped in the holder with the coin. This is a common problem with crackouts - some fractured bits of the original holder may cling to the surfaces of the coin. I'm telling you, everything will eventually be ruined this way. Below are pics of the coin from Hugon (MS66 slab), the new MS67 slab, and a close-up showing what appears to be a bit of plastic trapped in the holder, where it may abrade the surfaces over time. (Look between Liberty's neck and the lower right star.) And look at how scuffy and crummy the new holder looks around the circumference of the coin. I don't know why PCGS can't do better.

AlaBill · June 22, 2005 11:42PM

It is really interesting to me to see just how much different the photographs appear. I for one would not know these two coins were the same from these photographs. and if I were bidding just from these photographs, my bids would be significantly apart.

BASEagle · June 22, 2005 11:45PM

<< <i>Why would anyone mess with a coin like this? >>

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say: greed.

Mike

Sunnywood · June 22, 2005 11:50PM

AlaBill, it is another one of my pet topics to point out how INCREDIBLY different the same coin may appear in two different photographs. Photographs may make a coin look worse than it is, or better. I have seen toned morgans where three or four different people photographed the same coin with astoundingly different results. In one case, you look at the pic and say, "Wow, that is a neon fluorescent monster !!!" Then you look at a different pic OF THE SAME COIN and say, "Ho hum." It is very important to bear this in mind when you are trying to evaluate coins from pics.

As for the 1900-O quarter in the first post above, yes, I am 1000% sure it is the same coin. I didn't post the reverse images, but they match with a distinctive toning pattern. Besides, how many green MS67* 1900-O Barber quarters do you think there are !!!!

Best,
Sunnywood

ecos · June 22, 2005 11:59PM

I am by no means an expert, but I did a photoshop overlay adjusting the transparency. IMO, as Sunnywood said, this is the same coin.

Sunnywood · June 23, 2005 5:37AM

So what does everyone think about the new MS67 holder for that 1913 quarter? It has bits of plastic inside, it is all scuffed up and terrible looking around the coin, and the plastic generally looks crummier than the old MS66 pictured at left above. Boy, I would sure like to see the holders IMPROVING over time, rather than getting worse. I have had a lot of coins in crummy-looking holders, with scuffs all around the coin.

Best,
Sunnywood

tmot99 · June 23, 2005 5:52AM

I can't see that the first two coins are the same, but that may just be the photography.

On the 1913-P, the white speck may be on the outside. Too hard to tell from a photo. Only seeing it in person would prove one way or another. If it were me buying it and it was a bit of plastic in the holder, I would have PCGS reholder it. They would probably do it for free.

As far as keeping scratches off of the hodlers, I'm not sure what can be done except for finding a new plastic or using glass. Just like the fields on the coins themselves, big open areas are going to be prone to scratches with handling, stacking of the slabs, etc.

Editted to add that on the first coin, the date on the first picture looks like it has streaks going through it as it does on the second picture. The whole area on that coin even going up to the bottom of the bust itself looks to have something going on and I doubt that NGC would holder it in a 67* if that was truly a problem on the coin.

Steve27 · June 23, 2005 6:18AM

"Has this coin been damaged by crackout artists ???"

No, just photographers.

mgoodm3 · June 23, 2005 6:29AM

I would suspect that both of those changes are realted to crap on the outside of the slab. You'd have to see then to really tell.

dragon · June 23, 2005 6:52AM

Sunnywood,

Unfortunately, you are preaching to a deaf audience. IMO 98% of all dealers (and a growing number of investors disguised as collectors)are into coins for one reason and one reason only, and they could really care less about the coins themselves or the damage they are doing, just that all important number on the grading tag. Sad but true.

Now if you want to talk about those who are actually "into" coins and could give a rats behind about the plastic or profit margins or investment returns....... talk to those hardcore collectors who religiously collect toned coins or large cents by variety or other specialties.

TorinoCobra71 · June 23, 2005 7:13AM

oooooooohhhhhhhhh lookie, GRADEFLATION!

from MS66 to MS67 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

TorinoCobra71

Sunnywood · June 23, 2005 7:25AM

tmot99, the scuffs I am complaining about are NOT scratches on the outside of the holder. I think they are on the inside surfaces of the holder. I have seen MANY newly holdered PCGS coins with these kinds of scuffs all around the perimeter of the coin. They are coming out of the reholdering operation that way. If you look at the old MS66, it did not have these kinds of peripheral scuffs. But the new MS67 holder is full of them. <sigh>

morgannut2 · June 23, 2005 7:55AM

There are 2 problems IMHO. First, I have seen this plastic residue problem on several coins I've gotten back, and yes it's a concern. But the other problem is the photos. A coin should not change so much in appearance, and I find this primarily true of nice original toned coins. I have one at ANA, and except for the serial number I wouldn't recognise it! This tends to encourage dipping any coin that's going to be sold to internet bidders.

Has this coin been damaged by crackout artists ???

Comments

Leave a Comment