The Plague of the Hypotheticals is now Officially OVER!!!

MrEureka · June 22, 2005 12:51PM

The most interesting thing has been the incredibly divided and diverse answers received on so many issues that most of us consider "black and white". It makes me wonder how much I really know about how things really work. It also makes me doubt the legitimacy of the whole concept of "right and wrong".

Hedger · June 22, 2005 1:01PM

I've come to a similar conclusion myself.

mozin · June 22, 2005 1:05PM

Pretty scary to see what some people feel is the right thing to do. I think age has a lot to do with attitudes when considering the honorable thing to do in a given situation. Retirees often do not see things the same as those forty or fifty years younger. Some of us had the "privilege" of being taught by Catholic nuns who instilled the fear of God in us.

The Andy threads were a very positive part of this forum.

CarlWohlforth · June 22, 2005 1:06PM

When I was 20 everything was either black or white. And I knew for sure which was which.

Now that I have 30 more years of learning and experience things are grey. I try to see issues from other peoples point of view, and darn it, sometimes I even can see their point.

DUIGUY · June 22, 2005 1:10PM

How are your fingers after all that typing?

Newmismatist · June 22, 2005 1:14PM

Andy - these Hypos were thought provoking (or maybe just plain provacative!) and I seemed to have missed most - nice job - you're nearly as good as some of the jail house lawyers I've met!

ddink · June 22, 2005 1:17PM

<< It also makes me doubt the legitimacy of the whole concept of "right and wrong". >>

Coin collectors and dealers, it seems, hold themselves to far higher ethical guidelines than most of the general public. Some ethics questions in the past (not MrEureka's) have really surprised me, because things I thought of as plainly okay was judged unethical by the majority of posters. Andy, you might consider giving some of these questions to non-collectors and seeing what responses you get. I think you'd be most intrigued.

MrEureka · June 22, 2005 1:20PM

Coin collectors and dealers, it seems, hold themselves to far higher ethical guidelines than most of the general public.

I think maybe it's mostly the collectors that seem to subscribe to the "higher ethical standards". Perhaps that has something to do with looking at things from the perspective of a coddled consumer?

ss350camaro · June 22, 2005 1:21PM

Andy,

I vote you do more of them. Right along side Marks (coinguy1) mind twisting scenareos.

I thoroughly enjoy reading them, responding if i have the ability, and reading the many responses they garner.

mrearlygold · June 22, 2005 1:26PM

Some of us had the "privilege" of being taught by Catholic nuns who instilled the fear of God in us.

That plus parents who were there for us and would kick the crap out of us if we didn't do the right thing!

Thanks Andy for the informative posts.

Tom

PerryHall · June 22, 2005 5:45PM

<< Andy,

I vote you do more of them. Right along side Marks (coinguy1) mind twisting scenareos.

I thoroughly enjoy reading them, responding if i have the ability, and reading the many responses they garner.

>>

magikbilly · June 22, 2005 5:55PM

<< The most interesting thing has been the incredibly divided and diverse answers received on so many issues that most of us consider "black and white". It makes me wonder how much I really know about how things really work. It also makes me doubt the legitimacy of the whole concept of "right and wrong". >>

Hi Andy,
I felt the same way reading the responses. Not so black and white anymore. Perspective is responsible for only so much. What did George Harrison sing? "The more I learn, the less I know..."

Billy

PS - I liked them - keep em coming!

Newmismatist · June 22, 2005 11:41PM

Andy

I thought your hypotheticals were excellent - they depict real life situations (or close to it), they are ambiguous as are many transactions in the coin business. The one thing that you mighrt do in the future is add a 2nd level to the hypothetical posed - by way of example - you gave us many "Dealer to Dealer" Scenerios - You could then add: If the person buying the coin was a collector, not a dealer would the result be the same?

I gave quick analysis to the several that I found, (couldn't find a bunch of them) and frankly several of your hypos would get different answers if they were actual lawsuits and tried in different jurisdictions.

Edited to add: Here's an example of one of ANdy's hypos - my quick answer and my thoughts after reflection as to waht would occur in a real life situation where both sides "agreed to disagree" and let a Judge deicde whether the money gets refunded:

<< Hypothetical #18 - Counterfeit in a slab
Suppose you're a dealer and you own a very deceptive counterfeit. Even though you know it's fake, you submit it to NGC and they authenticate it. You then sell it to another dealer. The buyer thinks it's undergraded, cracks it, and sends it to PCGS. PCGS calls it fake. Upon closer inspection, he realizes that PCGS is correct. He goes to NGC for a refund and NGC refuses. (The coin's now raw and they honestly don't remember having graded it.) So now the buyer brings the coin back to you and wants you to refund the money. You try to get the guy to go to NGC but he explains that that's a dead end. Are you obligated to give a refund? If not, why? >>

Here's my original answer and the edited "Real life" revision:

<< << you know it's fake >> Cha-Ching - You lose - money gets refunded

Edited to add: there's a big IF here: If the selling dealer refuses a refund, the Buyer would have to PROVE that the selling dealer KNEW it was fake - that might not be as easy as you think - Here's how the selling dealer might answer that question on a witness stand: "Well, I wasn't sure (if it was a fake) so I submitted it to NGC and they said it was real - THey grade thousands of coins and are much more expert than I am" Another issue that would show up is whether the coin that was being returned was the same coin as was sold - - That becomes who do you believe: IE Selling dealer - well I'm not sure that that's the same that I sold - and the final problem - the purchasing dealer "Changed" the characteristics of the coin - Dealer A sold a "Slabbed" coin -Dealer B tries to return a Raw coin - the ultimate "Does dealer B get his money back" may depend on whether that change to the what was sold (a slabbed coin) is the sine qua non of the transaction. So while hypothetical the above is the correct answer IF it can be proved that DEALER A knowing sold a fake coin, in real life it may well have a very different result - You hardly ever get anyone to admit that they knowingly tried to defraud someone - it happens, but with the same frequency as a larger meteorite striking the earth and wiping out the dinosours. >>

So while ANDY's Hypothetical that discloses the single most important fact "Dealer A KNEW it was fake" - hence intentionally sold a fake coin - will be quite problematic if the case ends up in litigation - The "FACTS" that are established in litigation determine the result - and sometimes the "Fact" are who you believe ie who's the most credible or believable witness. As I recall OJ was acquited in that Trial in LA some years back in the criminal case and later a civil jury determined that he did it - something like getting a coin graded one time and bagged the next - which is the correct decision?

Longacre · June 23, 2005 6:17AM

Andy---Will you be summarizing the answers in any way for the benefit of the board members who cannot attend your Summer Seminar session?

MrEureka · June 23, 2005 6:23AM

Will you be summarizing the answers in any way for the benefit of the board members who cannot attend your Summer Seminar session?

Only if Eric gives me permission.

K6AZ · June 23, 2005 6:25AM

<< Will you be summarizing the answers in any way for the benefit of the board members who cannot attend your Summer Seminar session?

Only if Eric gives me permission.

>>

Go for it. And I will post the same number of threads on Morgans, how's that?

ElectricEye · June 23, 2005 6:29AM

<< Some of us had the "privilege" of being taught by Catholic nuns who instilled the fear of God in us.

That plus parents who were there for us and would kick the crap out of us if we didn't do the right thing! >>

And to think, despite the brutality, you still turned out the way you are.

mgoodm3 · June 23, 2005 6:34AM

Very little is black and white in this world. Go with your gut, it's right fairly often.

sinin1 · June 23, 2005 8:04AM

what are the 'black and white answers'?

just curious how unethical I am

nwcs · June 23, 2005 8:13AM

Well, I am not for moral relativism by any stretch of the imagination. But your hypotheticals did make for some interesting thoughts.

ddink · June 23, 2005 8:24AM

Andy, I would be really interested if you asked twenty members of the general public (non-collectors) question number one. That's the most clear-cut question of them all, IMO

MrEureka · June 23, 2005 8:28AM

Go for it. And I will post the same number of threads on Morgans, how's that?

Thank you Eric. And please feel free to start anytime with your threads. We can always use another interesting discussion of Morgan dollars.

MrEureka · June 23, 2005 8:29AM

Andy, I would be really interested if you asked twenty members of the general public (non-collectors) question number one.

What makes you think I know that many non-collectors?

The Plague of the Hypotheticals is now Officially OVER!!!

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