I despise the endless cracking out & resubmitting ...

Sunnywood · June 21, 2005 11:22AM

Many of our best coins are slowly but surely being destroyed. These gem treasures of the past are being subjected to endless handling, shipping, cracking out, exposure to different temperatures and atmospheres, reholdering, grading, etc etc etc. Do you really think a superb gem coin will remain in the same condition after it has been cracked out and resubmitted ten times, shipped all over the country, and handled ad infinitum? Not to mention the doctoring, dipping or "conservation," brushing, retoning, etc.

Lately I have noticed a lot of the Hugon coins (to name just one example) reappearing on the market in different holders ... some at the same grade, some a grade higher. In each case, the coin has been handled over and over ... personally, I think it is disgusting. Eventually, everything will be ruined.

Sunnywood

AlaBill · June 21, 2005 11:27AM

Sunnywood,

I hope to be the first to second your opinion here.

I see this all the time in branch mint gold. Out of a PCGS AU58 holder into a NGC Ms60-62 holder after several attempts and usually some dipping and/or retoning. It happens until they finally get into a holder that is ABOVE their true grade, and there they will remain for the rest of their life. Why? It too 10-20 attempts to get there and the fear is that they will never reach there again.

This is a travesty!

tjkillian · June 21, 2005 11:29AM

I am far more worried about doctoring than I am about the handling. I was looking at a Lincoln cent today in my change ashtray. The coin was 11 years old, but a very beautiful RB in easily MS-66. Coins are tougher than we like to think. Sure, there will be accidents and the numbers can only go down, but I don't think they are going down faster than new ones are being discovered. I am an optimist.

Tom

DJC · June 21, 2005 11:32AM

I was hoping to be first AlaBill!

I think I've made my feeling toward slabs abundantly clear. I do buy them, and I appreciate the extra security of one of the major services as per authenticity. I don't even mind the grade as a 'starting point', but to me, that's all it is. Grades are ranges, not scientifically determined and infallible numbers. The crack out game proves that point more convincingly and thoroughly than any argument I could ever make. I buy 'em, crack 'em, and put 'em in an album, where they belong. To be enjoyed, by a collector, as part of a hobby. No more, no less.

bgrice · June 21, 2005 11:36AM

The real travesty might be the last one who ends up with some of these coins that have continually been tinkered with to give them more appeal in between crackouts and they start turning colors or spotting. I have a few coins that I doubt were anywhere near the condition when they were slabbed that they are now.

magikbilly · June 21, 2005 11:41AM

It shows the priority is in the plastic, not in the plastic...Sad. I like the coins myself. And also stupid; people running up and down saying "it's a 6, it's a 6!" - [n]NO, it is the same 5 it was yesterday, or less. How did they ever convince so many people they can't grade for themselves, while maintaining it is an opinion and also exhibiting the "gradeflation" and "upgrade" nonsense - simultaneously?

Billy

MacCrimmon · June 21, 2005 11:49AM

<< Do you really think a superb gem coin will remain in the same condition after it has been cracked out and resubmitted ten times, shipped all over the country, and handled ad infinitum? >>

No! Sadly, these coins are Slouching Towards Gomorrah.

Many coins are damaged just in the crackout phase. Red coppers and bronzes are the most susceptible, especially with temp/humidity changes. If you have never viewed the stone cold original Watt coins (Irish set), by all means find Evan Gale when he has them on display and MARVEL at what could be. Compare them to the "typical" George III copper coinage which has been "handled". You'll be amazed.

I just bought a bunch of Cheshire material from Goldberg, and guess what? I'm having a crackout party this weekend. They are solid for grade (yeah, even NGC gets 'em right occasionally

), and I don't need them to be in the moisture traps anyway.

dragon · June 21, 2005 11:49AM

Good post Sunnywood, and I think you're right. These days it's nearly impossible to find a nice original DMPL dollar that 20 different idiot dealers (or collectors) haven't repeatedly cracked out, dipped, and resubmitted. They don't care if they riun the coin in the long term, just to get that coveted "bump" and flip it.

chloebess · June 21, 2005 11:49AM

Certainly I am in general agreement.

To play devil's advocate, though, it can be argued that prior to TPG's coins were also subject to mishandling. You could go to coin shows and see coins laying raw on some type of nice cloth, velvet, etc. to enhance the coins appearance. That coin had to be put into and out of flips numerous times prior to its sale. Additionally, collectors would put them in holders, then albums, then a flip to sell, etc., etc.

Not sure its any worse. At least now when someone cracks one out they are being careful so as to not ruin the chance for an upgrade.

As far as retoning, that isn't new either.

I have never cracked one out and don't see that I ever would because I buy what I want in the first place but there is another side to this story.

magikbilly · June 21, 2005 11:58AM

<< Certainly I am in general agreement.

To play devil's advocate, though, it can be argued that prior to TPG's coins were also subject to mishandling. You could go to coin shows and see coins laying raw on some type of nice cloth, velvet, etc. to enhance the coins appearance. That coin had to be put into and out of flips numerous times prior to its sale. Additionally, collectors would put them in holders, then albums, then a flip to sell, etc., etc.

Not sure its any worse. At least now when someone cracks one out they are being careful so as to not ruin the chance for an upgrade.

As far as retoning, that isn't new either.

I have never cracked one out and don't see that I ever would because I buy what I want in the first place but there is another side to this story. >>

Yes, but when you took that expensive coin out of that flip - it suddenly did not lose its grade and value....Hmmmmm...

Billy

AlaBill · June 21, 2005 12:04PM

How many coins in slabs, particularly in graades AU58-MS64, that you would gladly crack out and place in an album without fear that it would not regrade at the same grade on the current slab?

Many, if not most of these coins, would not regrade at the present slab number and therefore have reached the ultimate grade and destination.

chloebess · June 21, 2005 12:08PM

<< 

<< Certainly I am in general agreement.

To play devil's advocate, though, it can be argued that prior to TPG's coins were also subject to mishandling. You could go to coin shows and see coins laying raw on some type of nice cloth, velvet, etc. to enhance the coins appearance. That coin had to be put into and out of flips numerous times prior to its sale. Additionally, collectors would put them in holders, then albums, then a flip to sell, etc., etc.

Not sure its any worse. At least now when someone cracks one out they are being careful so as to not ruin the chance for an upgrade.

As far as retoning, that isn't new either.

I have never cracked one out and don't see that I ever would because I buy what I want in the first place but there is another side to this story. >>

Yes, but when you took that expensive coin out of that flip - it suddenly did not lose its grade and value....Hmmmmm...

Billy >>

Well, not exactly. In those days the grade and value switched around more than today, depending on who had the coin and what they thought of it.

For a "non expert" (not sure how many of us are really that expert) it was tougher because at least the TPG puts a coin in a certain range...........and I am not talking about the infrequent errors that they can even make.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like crack outs generally. However, what do you do if you are the "expert" and you think it is undergraded?

magikbilly · June 21, 2005 12:28PM

Before slabs there was not this duality of "raw" and "slabbed" . Perhaps I mispoke myself. All I meant was toooo much emphasis is on what is on that little slip of paper. I don't think it is a fair comparison what you said - today there is a duality that did not exist before that makes the field even less level for the collector - especially newer- raw and slabbed.

Billy

Sunnywood · June 21, 2005 12:29PM

I didn't say I was against TPG's, and I didn't say things are worse now than before TPG's. I agree that before slabs, there was also a lot of handling (indeed, perhaps moreso). But I absolutely DID say that the endless cracking out and resubmitting will slowly destroy the coins, just like any other kind of excessive and needless handling. It has reached a feverish pitch. The piranhas jump on anything in a green holder, and if they can't find those, a seven-digit blue holder. The number of times that the coins get cracked out and resubmitted can be mindboggling (to use a Laura word). Bottom line: there is NO RESPECT for the coins themselves.

As someone said above, the game is bump it up and flip it. I'm telling you, the coins will all be trashed eventually. And PCGS is doing so many coins that the regraded and reholdered slabs often have bits of plastic trapped inside (from the previous holder - the crackout often leaves some fluff behind which static-clings to the surfaces of the coin). So then these little bits of plastic are trapped in the new holder ... where they can abrade the surfaces of the coin. And I have seen so many coins lately in new holders where the coin is tilted, rotated, etc. They are processing so many, the quality control is slipping. Don't tell me the coins are handled carefully!!!!! I do NOT buy it. The only way to "handle carefully" is to LEAVE THE #(*&%^ COINS ALONE.

Best,
Sunnywood

magikbilly · June 21, 2005 12:34PM

I am sorry - the "you" I was speaking to up there was member chloebess - I did not mean to imply you said anything like I was. ;D

Best,
Billy

chloebess · June 21, 2005 12:37PM

I agree with your statement totally.

tradedollarnut · June 21, 2005 12:39PM

Sunnywood: what you say is true, but until collectors step up to buy the coins before they are thrown up against the wall a million times, then it will continue to happen.

Here's a true story to illustrate:

I just offered to sell a very nice MS64 trade dollar to a board member for his type set. The fellow collector had an MS64 and a MS65 he was considering purchasing from one of the national dealers. He laid the three coins out and said my coin was clearly better than the MS64 and equal to the MS65 in almost every facet. But he couldn't understand why my coin was $1,000 more than the other company's MS64. I kind of laughed and thought to myself 'but it's still $3,000 less than the MS65 that it's just as nice as!'.

He wanted to know if it could be an upgrade. I said I had never tried it, but these days coins are always tried, so it most likely had been. I simply don't want to play the game.

So here's a beautiful MS64 just on the cusp of MS65 and the resistance to paying for quality is there. But throw it into the next higher holder and even if it's a dog you can still discount it 25% and get more than enough return to make up for it.

The process is nauseating, but unless attitudes change it's here to stay.

RYK · June 21, 2005 12:44PM

The fellow collector had an MS64 and a MS65 he was considering purchasing from one of the national dealers. He laid the three coins out and said my coin was clearly better than the MS64 and equal to the MS65 in almost every facet. But he couldn't understand why my coin was $1,000 more than the other company's MS64. I kind of laughed and thought to myself 'but it's still $3,000 less than the MS65 that it's just as nice as!'.

One of the worst things about the TPGs, IMO, is that they tend to anchor the price of a coin to the grade on a holder. In my world, which is worth more: a choice, original XF-45 or a doggy, dipped, unnaturally shiny AU-50? In practice, the price gap is shrinking and the knowledgeable buyer will pay a premium for the XF and pass on the AU.

clw54 · June 21, 2005 12:52PM

<< Many of our best coins are slowly but surely being destroyed. These gem treasures of the past are being subjected to endless handling, shipping, cracking out, exposure to different temperatures and atmospheres, reholdering, grading, etc etc etc. Do you really think a superb gem coin will remain in the same condition after it has been cracked out and resubmitted ten times, shipped all over the country, and handled ad infinitum? Not to mention the doctoring, dipping or "conservation," brushing, retoning, etc.

Lately I have noticed a lot of the Hugon coins (to name just one example) reappearing on the market in different holders ... some at the same grade, some a grade higher. In each case, the coin has been handled over and over ... personally, I think it is disgusting. Eventually, everything will be ruined.

Sunnywood >>

I'm glad somebody finally said it.

MrEureka · June 21, 2005 1:03PM

Eventually, everything will be ruined.

How many full red Roman bronzes have you seen? Even without the game, everything will get ruined sooner or later. So what if it's sooner?

Sunnywood · June 21, 2005 1:18PM

Mr. Eureka: "So what if it's sooner?"

It DOES matter. We're all going to die some day too. But I would prefer that it come later, rather than sooner. Wouldn't you?

Yes, it is true, the Second Law of Thermodynamics says that entropy always increases. Order tends toward chaos, and things deteriorate with age. I agree that it is part of nature, and it is inevitable. But that does NOT mean that we should acquiesce when the deterioration process is accelerated by stupid practices. For example, we should never complacent about habits that shorten our lifespan, even though we are inevitably going to die. The mere fact that the universe will either implode or suffer a dark and cold "heat death" someday in the distant future does not mean that we should never fight back against increasing entropy.

And thus I, for one, do not choose to remain silent while the crackheads abuse our coins. I like the coins. That's what makes me a collector. And I will not be quiet about it when I see this resubmission thing spinning out of control.

Best,
Sunnywood

chloebess · June 21, 2005 1:22PM

Sunnywood, what can any of us do about it?

Coinosaurus · June 21, 2005 1:22PM

Went to the ANR viewing today and saw an awful lot of NGC coins that were tilted in the holder. That can't be good......

But much more interesting was holding BOTH the Boyd/Cardinal 1794 SD and the silver Libertas medal in my hands at the same time. That was so kewl!!!!!

MrEureka · June 21, 2005 1:23PM

And I will not be quiet about it when I see this resubmission thing spinning out of control.

SW - How many crackout artists will read your comments and say to themselves, "Gee, he's right, I think I'd better stop!"?

MrEureka · June 21, 2005 1:26PM

Sunnywood, what can any of us do about it?

I don't know what SW will suggest but I have my own suggestion: Buy as many of my coins as you can afford and put them away forever.

Sunnywood · June 21, 2005 1:28PM

We can't stop the crackheads. TDN said it right before: the collectors have to step up to the plate at the auctions. They have to learn to recognize quality and be willing to pay for it and keep it. They have to be willing to pay premiums above the slab grade for the good coins. It ends up being less expensive that way, instead of letting the crackheads score the upgrade, letting the coins get manhandled, and ending up buying the reholdered job down the road for more money.

As long as there is money to be made, there will be crackheads and strippers (my terms for crackout artists and people who dip or conserve coins).

(Imagine how vastly less expensive coins would be for collectors if there were no intermediaries, no dealers, no crackheads ... well, that ain't never gonna happen.)

Best,
Sunnywood

morgannut2 · June 21, 2005 1:30PM

I just sniped 15 minutes ago, a semi-common Morgan in a rattler 65 holder that looks a lot like some 66 or even some 67's I've seen. Same story last week on a 64-shot 65, lovely rainbow stuck in a 63 rattler. The difference is I'm not a dealer and I enjoy showing hideously undergraded coins I bought for dirt to other club members. Always get an interested reaction. So they stay that way. Doesn't happen when my crackouts "just make it" even though they're worth more.

I just looked at a NGC MS64 pop top 59-O Seated Liberty Dollar in MS64. It was a beautiful coin and I thought clearly the best--until I looked up TDN's example in PCGS MS63 ex: Ms. Norweb-- TDN's MS63 suddenly looked MS65!! Let people buy the top grade! That's OK, I'll buy the high end coin for too much anyday, and let the Registry competition enjoy their paper chase.

MrEureka · June 21, 2005 1:30PM

As long as there is money to be made, there will be crackheads and strippers (my terms for crackout artists and people who dip or conserve coins).

So someone that does both would be a "crapper"?

tradedollarnut · June 21, 2005 1:33PM

I just looked at a NGC MS64 pop top 59-O Seated Liberty Dollar in MS64. It was a beautiful coin and I thought clearly the best--until I looked up TDN's example in PCGS MS63 ex: Ms. Norweb-- TDN's MS63 suddenly looked MS65!! Let people buy the top grade! That's OK, I'll buy the high end coin for too much anyday, and let the Registry competition enjoy their paper chase.

1850-O? If you mean the coin in the upcoming Heritage sale, that's the Pittman coin with the provenance removed.

morgannut2 · June 21, 2005 1:40PM

Yes TDN, my dyslexia strikes again-- date typed wrong. The coin is nice. I'm not saying it's isn't attractive. But why did they remove, or not include, the wonderful Pittman provenance??

Sunnywood · June 21, 2005 1:45PM

The crackheads almost always remove the provenance. For example, when my 1877 proof set was NCS'd after I sold it, three of the six gold coins were conveniently upgraded by NGC. The Dallas Bank $3, the Bass $5, and the Garrett $20 scored the upgrades. Never mind that Heritage had owned the Garrett $20 out of Trompeter before me, and had already tried it many times for a 65. So the Garrett $20 became the first PR65 of the date, and was suddenly "worth" twice as much. Of course, the new slabs omitted the pedigrees. Do you think the crackheads wanted anyone to know that the PR65 they were selling used to be a PR64? The provenance also carries grading information with it, and the crackheads want to hide that.

Sunnywood

stman · June 21, 2005 1:48PM

Yeah, but all the fingerprints don't seem to bother most on here. And yes, many of them come from crack-outs.

The Morgan collectors can call them "Textile" and justify them though!!! LMAO

oldcameoproofsguy · June 21, 2005 1:50PM

I couldn't agree more!

The crack out game is out of hand. Not only are really nice, rare coins at risk for being forever ruined in the process, but the pop numbers have become totally unreliable as well. I don't even look at pop numbers any more. I have cracked out one coin in my lifetime and I really don't ever plan on doing that again.

Bender · June 21, 2005 1:54PM

What does anybody have to say about slabbed coins, are they better now
than they were in the begining? Or the reverse?

mozin · June 21, 2005 1:55PM

Ever wonder if ANY of the crack out crowd was ever a serious collector, someone that was not only out to make a fast buck?

morgannut2 · June 21, 2005 1:56PM

You know outside of coins, I can't think of a collectable area where it would ever pay to hide an important provenance. They just sold last month a painting literally done by a dead chimpanze-- for a LOT of money, because it belonged to Picasso!!

But it makes sense to hide your gold coin's history. My question is I wonder if the fact that it was the best and only example would be the deciding factor anyway among plastic paper chasers? Even if they know it was upgraded, I bet they still would pay a lot more. And of course the provenance doesn't mean much if it was conserved (dipped and stripped) anyway.

doop · June 21, 2005 2:23PM

<< Eventually, everything will be ruined.

How many full red Roman bronzes have you seen? Even without the game, everything will get ruined sooner or later. So what if it's sooner? >>

They are not ever going to acquire that reality Andy and all the potential implications that tag along with it.
Life itself has no guarantees, nor does coin grading, cracking coins out to make 10 times your money or for that
matter doing different thing to cars, other collectibles, etc to have the same coin (or other) end up different, worth more or less than the first condition and value of to the "can be condition and worth of". LIke what a red early copper now being a redbrown that used to be or still is in a red holder. Some folks buy stuff just to be involved in something as a hobby or a
way to live a fathers' dream out and never grasp this concept. They dont like what occurs in the coin business, as a
business, just like they dont like knowing used car seller "joe blo" bought x car, in x grade, did a few things here and
there and now the double up, triple up or better. The world changes and rules change as you go along to accomodate the
mostly uninformed. Nothing different in the coin business. Like a current,alive and well collector/investor of coins that gets auctioned off in a Heritage Sig sale only for them soon thereafter see the same let's say PCGS au58 rarity that brought
100g and they were happy to then see it in a PCGS ms62 holder next round up going for 750k. Simple concept, simple
business prudence utilizing what nescessitates getting that 100g coin a year later selling for 750g.
That would be like going to your stock-broker who said "you know just 2 years ago you bought 500g of stock x for me at 100 a share, you sold at 150 a share, after the cost of conducting business you netted a 40% gain" so be happy.
NOT, it's now 6 mos after I was happy it's selling for 250 a share and rising and "I feel an injustice here".
Move on and go with the chances,changes and lose the "someone is making now 75% more or 110% more than I was just recently happy with. This is why collectors from the beginning, then turning dealer have this sour outlook. As opposed to someone who may collect for themselves but bottom line is they are in business as a dealer for as hefty a profit possible and became a dealer through whatever means first then decides on his own personal collecting habits secondarily. Those of us whom understand this concept entirely from that perspective dont mind seeing a 100g coin right away resell for 750g.

Myqqy · June 21, 2005 3:09PM

I'm not really sure what doop said, but I sympathize with what sunnywood has been saying. And I think the simplist and most effective thing we can do as collectors is keep buying quality pieces to keep them out of the hands of the strippers and crackheads. Preserve some numismatic history with the power that you do have.....

ER · June 21, 2005 3:16PM

<< .................................... Eventually, everything will be ruined....................

Sunnywood >>

Nah, NCS will "conserve" it for you.

ER · June 21, 2005 3:21PM

<< What does anybody have to say about slabbed coins, are they better now
than they were in the begining? Or the reverse? >>

I don't know what anybody have to say, but I say you have to judge a coin on its own merit, regardless of what slab it's in, and when it was slabbed (e.g., OGH vs new).

coynclecter · June 21, 2005 3:32PM

But this is the best way to maximize the profits of the business.......What is your problem? Do you think this is some kinda hobby or something??

bestclser1 · June 21, 2005 4:30PM

Great post and i fully agree,but i guess thats because i am a collector too.Stman,REAL Morgan collectors better know the difference between textile toning and fingerprintile untoning,or they need to find something else to collect.JMHO

TahoeDale · June 21, 2005 4:47PM

Sunnywood, and all the other toned original surface advocates:

Several of us have complete or almost complete proof and mint state series that have never been touched since we acquired them. At sale time( several years off for me), do you think we can market them as complete sets, and find a buyer/collector who will keep them intact?

The only problem I see is the high purchase price. But Eliasberg did it, and there appears to be some whales around today.

Count me in to discuss further this possibility. I would think that "an intact since 1990" proof set, with the lack of conservation and grade-inflation would interest a high end collector in the year 2015 or later.

A complete original set of early and bust halves might also do better than the break up value, knowing there probably won't be another to appear for years, if ever.

We just need someone to do this, at a successful private sale, and then the auction houses can go bananas. We, our new owners, and the coins win.

FullStrike · June 21, 2005 11:19PM

I have never cracked out a Coin, at least not yet. Of course I only have 13 PCGS's and 1 NGC, but I see no reason to do such a thing.

I have a 2003 PCGS 1 oz Plat MS69 that has a nasty looking abrasion on the sun on the reverse. I'm sure that one isn't really an MS69 at all. But who am I to ague with "the best"?

Probably none of my Coins would have any shot at an upgrade. And besides I don't buy with resale in mind. I'm not a "wannabee" dealer at all. Just a "wannabee" collector.

TerrapinWill · June 21, 2005 11:26PM

I really haven't ever had a coin worth "cracking out"....but I can certainly see why people might take a shot, especially if they feel the coin is undergraded and the one point bump is big enough to justify the expense of submitting. If say the difference as $1300 vs `15,000 for a one grade jump, it's tough to resist giving it a shot. JMHO

Proof · June 22, 2005 12:25AM

A lot of work was required to crack out all those rare, rare coins, but at least it was done by an expert.

Looks like fun !!

Sunnywood · June 22, 2005 6:29AM

Tahoe Dale,

In the old days there were more collections sold intact. The practice was traditionally referred to as a "private treaty" sale. The problem is that with slabbing, the market values have gotten skewed crazily at the high end. Think about how things have changed since Sheldon came up with his system. In the Sheldon system, grades of 1 (basal state) through 70 (perfect) were intended to correspond to values. In other words, an MS60 was worth roughly twice a VF30. An MS65 was worth a premium over an MS60, perhaps 10%. I remember collecting as a kid, when "Gem BU" coins cost more than "Choice BU," but not by multiples. The premiums for what we call "quality" today were much smaller. (Grading was a little different too ... and eye appeal was worth more than a numerical grade.)

Now fast forward to today. For many coins, a 65 costs more than double what a 64 does. A 66 may be double again, and a 67 yet again. In some cases an MS67 may be 20-30 times more costly than an MS64 in today's market. This is a response to demand at the high end. There is increased competition for "the best" coins. The only thing is, our mechanism for judging "the best" has become very questionable. The slab grades provide an overly convenient way for intellectually lazy collectors (including myself) to compare coins. The criteria used by the grading services do not necessarily correspond to everyone's definitions of value. And of course, they are not applied consistently.

Thus, in today's world, a collection is more likely to be slabbed and broken up in search of those inflated high-end prices applied to high-grade specimens. The private treaty is becoming somewhat obsolete. But there are exceptions. It is a little known fact that the major auction houses sometimes buy entire collections by private treaty, and then auciton them off. The public thinks it is bidding on consigned lots, when in fact the auction house is the consignor, and the guy at the table next to the podium who is bidding you up is the seller's agent. Example: Stack's actually bought the Rudolph Collection and then auctioned it off. And there are dealers who buy major collections intact - Legend bought the Share collection, the "Evergreen" half dollars, and an infamous run of early proof sets.

But it is more rare for collectors to sell to each other, with or without a dealer as intermediary. The intermediaries nowadays are much more interested in playing the grading arbitrage game and dispersing the collections. Anyway, let me know when you want to sell those halves !!

Best,
Sunnywood

keets · June 22, 2005 7:07AM

since we've all contributed to the problem we shouldn't really complain too much about it. i happened to mention in a thread a couple of weeks ago that S'wood was complaining about this in a similar thread but had a few months prior posted another thread about buying a coin to crack and upgrade, thus reaping the monetary reward. bottom line---when you buy to sell, entering your name on Legend's wannabe dealer listing or Stewart Blay's coin-whore list, the focus is on money and not the coins. in that context, how can you legitimately complain about the choices others make, unless you've had an epiphany of sorts and no longer crack for the money??

i don't agree that everything will eventually be ruined. some may be damaged, but overall, with the state of the hobby and encapsulatiuon ruling the day, coins are better off and safer today than they were even 20 years ago.

morgannut2 · June 22, 2005 7:21AM

As Legend points out, most of these "just made its" are dumped at big auctions. If you want to get bored, go through all the Morgans at any sale, and look at all the dipped white (or worse) marginal garbage. Collectors bidding on the internet are paying millions each month for this junk, but one day they are going to be very disappointed.

If you see a couple of dealers go to war over a fugly toned gem at over Trends, look again--it might be the only high end original coin in the sale!!

RKKay · June 22, 2005 7:55AM

<< Many of our best coins are slowly but surely being destroyed. These gem treasures of the past are being subjected to endless handling, shipping, cracking out, exposure to different temperatures and atmospheres, reholdering, grading, etc etc etc. Do you really think a superb gem coin will remain in the same condition after it has been cracked out and resubmitted ten times, shipped all over the country, and handled ad infinitum? Not to mention the doctoring, dipping or "conservation," brushing, retoning, etc.

Lately I have noticed a lot of the Hugon coins (to name just one example) reappearing on the market in different holders ... some at the same grade, some a grade higher. In each case, the coin has been handled over and over ... personally, I think it is disgusting. Eventually, everything will be ruined.

Sunnywood >>

Amen!

relayer · June 22, 2005 8:01AM

I dunno.

There doesn't seem anyway to be sure the coin is in the correct holder, until it has been resubmitted enough times so that it is slabbed at a grade that can't be improved upon.

I despise the endless cracking out & resubmitting ...

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I despise the endless cracking out &amp; resubmitting ...

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I despise the endless cracking out & resubmitting ...