david hall- ben- and moderns

monsterman · June 16, 2005 10:46AM

guys ( and gals )

there is ( was ..its looked now ) about a complaint about spots on his ms70 modern coins...and he wants a refund...:-)

imho pcgs is not responsible for anything...let me point out the facts..and im sorry to step on toes but....i heard one guy post and use the term " modern crap"..that is simply not true...they are nice...and if you like them ...great ...get after it

BUT THEY ARE NOT RARE...............PERIOD...THE "PRODUCERS WILL MAKE THOUSANDS OF MS 70S....thats the way it is

so the guys buying in the early times (ms70 coins) are going to take a bath..period

formula for coin profit is

quality plus rareity divided by demand

moderns are not rare...cant go up

iraq coinage has no demand...nice demand on moderns but cant over take the supply

denairs have no quality ...moderns have quality but no rareity...not enough to over come the demand

its that simple

i collect commems...many of them only had 3000 made..period..if 3001 people want one...too bad...thats it!!!! there will be more ms70 what-ever made than 39-p oregons made

next

pcgs or any other service cant hold people harmless if a coin changes...they better if they blew the grade or its a fake but thats it... ALERT....plastic is not...i repeat not impervious to some gases and liquids...if yo ulive in newark nj...your copper will turn on you in time and it wont be pretty...its in the air and it will penetrate slabs...do you think they did this intercept shield for grins!!...no there is a need for it

also

the producers of these modern marvels...do so in a factory...they make thousands of submissions a week....many or most or all..dont use bottle water to rinse...they use sink water...and sometimes it spots... thats the way it si

i will not comment on the sellers of these modern marvels other than to say think about it ..they dont have to hunt for rarities...they just go down to the factory and put in a order a 10 ms 70s ..or what ever they can sell...nice wiork if you can get it

so if your investing in ms70s...better be short...the long side will break ya

if your collecting....great....just dont put the kids college fund into them

bottonline is i would not do a thing for ben if i was david hall...how is david suppose to know if the factory used bottled water on thr rinse...or tap water...btw i won several carwashes and know all about water...do you think when one of those clowns changes their oil and dump it down the drain...do ya think there is a guy at the treatment facility standing there watching...saying oh...he comes a gallon of oil...better increase the chemicals...not..it just goes on the coins..if david did something here he would open up pandora`s box.....now that im thinking about it..i have a 91-0 morgan that turned ugly...he david how about a refund!!...personally i wouldnt even bother him with such hog wash

monsterman

ps let the shi$ fly...im tuff i can take it...but remember i speak the truth

roadrunner · June 16, 2005 10:55AM

Interesting view on this. Tend to agree.

But not on this:

moderns are not rare...cant go up

They can go up.....but whether they will stay up is the real issue.
Even tulips went up in price in the Dutch Mania. Some tulips could buy an entire house. They did go up, but came all the way home too.

roadrunner

Russ · June 16, 2005 10:55AM

<< imho pcgs is not responsible for anything... >>

Strangely, PCGS disagrees.

Russ, NCNE

morgannut2 · June 16, 2005 10:57AM

Let me guess Monsterman--The solution to this problem would be to collect beautifully toned rare silver coins?? While I agree, numerous makers of modern high grade coins have posted the correct way to conserve (remove mint contaminents) on moderns so they WON"T change. In fact I suspect the modern dealers--who post here-- do a better job at conservation than many regular dealers of older dated coinage.

As for MS-70, there is a reason there are no 19th Century MS-70's--coins change thru time.

ER · June 16, 2005 11:32AM

Hey monsterman,
Are you THE Greg Bingham of the old Houston Oilers in the Bum Phillips' days?

streeter · June 16, 2005 11:39AM

Yes he is and the question remains--why isn't he in the HOF?

ER · June 16, 2005 11:39AM

He should be. He was great.

monsterman · June 16, 2005 11:46AM

oh streeter

>>>>>es he is and the question remains--why isn't he in the HOF?

now you gone and done it :-)...that might happen when im dead...until that time i will just have to live with the tackling record....and with the money they are paying them now ( as in they cant afford them past 10 years )....it might stand for a long time

monsterman #54

cladking · June 16, 2005 11:49AM

All the way back to square one...

Moderns have been minted in several different metals and finishes. There are several different
techniques and types. The coins have been in production for two generations now(next month
anyway). There are dozens of series and thousands of different coins if adding in the varieties.
Quality has varied wildly even within each series.

To say moderns is common is just wrong. Meaning all moderns are common in high grade is extra-
ordinarily ignorant. Judging by the quality of Monsterman's posts in the past it would seem unlikely
that this is what was meant.

goose3 · June 16, 2005 11:51AM

nothing was better than watching the old Steelers and the Oilers play!!!

Even as a die hard life long Steelers fan, I will admit that Mike Renfro got screwed on the non touchdown call in the playoffs way back when I was a young lad.

streeter · June 16, 2005 11:53AM

GB--I played a little in college. Bartkowski, Muncie, Herm Edwards, Sherm White went on to do something.
edit: loren toews for the steeler fan. and I almost forgot isacc curtis and wesley walker. geesh--the old brain is weak.

I feel your pain. Believe me.

monsterman · June 16, 2005 11:56AM

cladking

your right there are exeptions to every rule...i was talking in general

now for a tidbit

there is only one united states coin that was made outside of the united states.......now thats rare!!!!!

guess which one

monsterman

cladking · June 16, 2005 12:02PM

<< 

there is only one united states coin that was made outside of the united states.......now thats rare!!!!!

guess which one

monsterman >>

...The Sac struck on a Canadian twonie?

Tonelover · June 16, 2005 12:03PM

there is only one united states coin that was made outside of the united states.......now thats rare!!!!!

How about coins minted in Manila for the Philippines while a US Territory? the Manila Mint which was in production from 1920-1922, then again from 1925 through 1941 is the only United States branch Mint ever established outside the Continental U.S.

Here's an example:

monsterman · June 16, 2005 12:04PM

goose

" fro" ( aka mike refro )....had a nick name..it was goofey....because he always practiced making catches that were unbelievable....on that catch he caught it and then " slipped it into his other arm so as to catch himself when he hit the ground...ive seen him do it a million times in practice....unfortunately the official who made the call thought he was juggling it

about 10 years ago i was playing golf in a tournament....and riding with this guy...we played 18 holes and he was a nice guy...after the game we said goodbye and he was gone...then one of the other guys in the foursome came over and said...he begged me not to say anything...do you know who that was you just rode 18 holes with...i said no who...he was the ref who made that bad call in pittsburgh...i about shi$....and went searching the parking lot

monsterman

ER · June 16, 2005 12:05PM

streeter · June 16, 2005 12:07PM

Probably best the way it was revealed. Can you imagine the round if you had known around the 10th hole?

monsterman · June 16, 2005 12:08PM

you know i forgot about the pi...but i didnt mean coins struck for use outside the U.S.

dont fall over when i tell ya

the georgia quarter....was struck in canada....and is a well kept secret ....but not anymore

monsterman

cmanbb · June 16, 2005 12:08PM

Interesting analysis

I must agree to the fact that "most" of the MS/PF70 modern coins will be worth less down the road. Too many are on the horizon.
A POP 1 coin today will probably be a POP 1000 a couple years down the road. As I have said before MAKE THE COIN, don't buy it.
I'm quite sure the market makers in these modern, perfect coins won't, don't, will not pay the silly prices they get for them.
An MS/PF69 coin is just as nice as the MS/PF70 coin..................

AND when you have completed that MS/PF70 collection of modern coins, AND the thrill of the hunt is gone, AND your interests have changed to other series, AND you add up the amount of cash tied up in this set, AND you try to sell it.............be ready for a reality check. IMHO

goose3 · June 16, 2005 12:13PM

you were going to find him in the lot and tell him that you forgave him, right?

Did you ever get to smash Kenny Stabler or Bradshaw??? LOL

What about your own RB, Earl Campbell? That dude was like a Mack truck!

monsterman · June 16, 2005 12:16PM

cmanbb

your exactly right...i love the moderns...as they have brought many collectors into the hobby...and when they mature...they will be seeking gems like i collect

on another note

the formual below is expanded for shiop wreck recovery coins...notice i added the marketing...because once the recovery coins are dispersed the marketing stops....then the demand goes down...then your coins go down....so i have found its best to wait

q + r
_____ x marketing

demand

my son in law loves ship wrecks...and i sit on him to wait...which he does ... and he always buys it cheaper....

monsterman

RYK · June 16, 2005 12:24PM

Monsterman,

Click on my link to see which football team I support.

I grew up in Pittsburgh in the 1970's and saw quite a few great Steelers-Oilers games. One favorite game was an icy cold December game that I remember buying hot chocolate, drinking half, and pouring the rest on my feet to keep them from freezing. I live In St. Louis now and cannot stand watching a game in the dome. Every year I go back to the 'Burgh to catch a Steelers game.

Back to coins...I would like to fiddle with your formula for value:

(quality + rarity + marketing/4) x demand = value

(Dividing by value implies that as demand goes up, value goes down. Au contraire.

)

monsterman · June 16, 2005 12:26PM

goose

terry and i go way back....remember we called signals agianst each other for 13 years....his brain against mine...gawd i love this job :-)

now you know we traded for snake stabler and he was my roomate...never ever had to call a girl again...they were like fies in an outhouse...EVERYWHERE....snake was a beaver magnet........geez

then after retiring he writes a book...scared to death i went to the first book signing...i said snake...i am not in there am i....he just smiled and said ytoull have to buy one and find out...i could of killed him...he amde me buy a book...i had to read it in the parking lot of the store in my car with the dome light on....whewwww i wasnt in it....but i had to get a jump for a car .....i didnt think i was readiong that slow...just reminiscing

monsterman

centmaster · June 16, 2005 12:28PM

<< Interesting analysis

I must agree to the fact that "most" of the MS/PF70 modern coins will be worth less down the road. Too many are on the horizon.
A POP 1 coin today will probably be a POP 1000 a couple years down the road. >>

Not so fast, here. This may be partially true, but I am quite sure that PCGS will probably never grade another 1963 cent PR70DC for instance, let alone 1000. It's a mistake to assume PCGS would do anything "just because" the 70 barrier has been broken on any given issue. Speculating on 70s is the same risk/reward that any other series or grade offers. Some may reach a ridiculous pop very soon, while others may never go up, and those coins that the pops don't go up on will command a lot of attention and a lot of money. It's already happened.

Newmismatist · June 16, 2005 12:37PM

I think Greg has accurately assessed the problem with overpaying for low POP moderns - and, you have to remember that the value is totally dependant on the plastic it resides in - crack it out, no matter how "nice" and it's worth bullion - Think of those 1913 Nickels, if you crack them out and put them in auction you still get 7 figures, crack out a modern MS/PF and what 's it worth? Better yet, can you even sell it for anything other than bullion? When the value of a "rare" coin is solely dependent on the fact that it has someone's opinion written on a piece of paper encased in 10 cents worth of plastic, be careful about mortgaging the farm to buy it. Collect it if that's what you like, but keep in mind that there's literally Millions available that look surprisingly just like the plasticized wonder! JMHO

BowTieCoins · June 16, 2005 12:57PM

Yes you guys really know your pops. And any rare gold will hardly be rare after all the ship wrecks are recovered. This is all but certain now !!

RYK · June 16, 2005 1:10PM

Yes you guys really know your pops. And any rare gold will hardly be rare after all the ship wrecks are recovered. This is all but certain now !!

I vowed to not bag on modernophiles, but when someone whose coin experience consists of looking through rolls of Lincoln Memorials comes on and takes shots at rare date gold, I can only

. Rare date gold has a one hundred and fifty year track record of active collectors, scholarship, research, fraternity amongst collectors, and preservation of value. Go back to counting pennies!

BowTieCoins · June 16, 2005 1:15PM

RYK ....I knew this would get you going and was thinking of you when I posted. You are too easy

RYK · June 16, 2005 1:16PM

RYK ....I knew this would get you going and was thinking of you when I posted. You are too easy

And you are too smart...NOT!!! Actually, you are smart. You don't buy modern crap, you just sell it.

There are more moderns in my sofa than there were Dahlonega coins on the Brother Jonathon, SS Central America, and SS Republic combined.

monsterman · June 16, 2005 1:19PM

on the other side of the coin...no pun intended

i might add if you really did your homework...and knew the pops of how many were made...such as the platinum coins were only 8000 were made......there is upside to the 70 grade....if pcgs stuck to their 1/2 % makes 70 then with a total possible pop of 40 ( but more like 25 seems right ...with enough demand ( and we all know the mint markets )....you can have a nice upside

monsterman

cladking · June 16, 2005 1:27PM

<< Interesting analysis

I must agree to the fact that "most" of the MS/PF70 modern coins will be worth less down the road. Too many are on the horizon.
A POP 1 coin today will probably be a POP 1000 a couple years down the road. As I have said before MAKE THE COIN, don't buy it.
I'm quite sure the market makers in these modern, perfect coins won't, don't, will not pay the silly prices they get for them.
An MS/PF69 coin is just as nice as the MS/PF70 coin..................

AND when you have completed that MS/PF70 collection of modern coins, AND the thrill of the hunt is gone, AND your interests have changed to other series, AND you add up the amount of cash tied up in this set, AND you try to sell it.............be ready for a reality check. IMHO >>

Again. There are no MS-70 eagle reverse clad quarters. Indeed, there aren't any MS-69 eagle
reverse clad quarters either. While it's possible all of the eagles exist in MS-70 in sufficient num-
bers to mostly satisfy current demand the older dates are no longer in production and are not be-
ing made. You can't encapsulate a coin which does not exist.

If you look at all the circulating issues you'll see very few in very high grade. Most of those which
do exist have been made only in very recent times since the US mint has raised its quality stan-
dards.

It simply isn't true that dealers are doing anything with coins which don't exist. If you believe that
the highest grades of the circulating issues are common or exist in substantial numbers just waiting
for the demand then you have not been paying attention.

cladking · June 16, 2005 1:32PM

<< I think Greg has accurately assessed the problem with overpaying for low POP moderns - and, you have to remember that the value is totally dependant on the plastic it resides in - crack it out, no matter how "nice" and it's worth bullion - Think of those 1913 Nickels, if you crack them out and put them in auction you still get 7 figures, crack out a modern MS/PF and what 's it worth? Better yet, can you even sell it for anything other than bullion? When the value of a "rare" coin is solely dependent on the fact that it has someone's opinion written on a piece of paper encased in 10 cents worth of plastic, be careful about mortgaging the farm to buy it. Collect it if that's what you like, but keep in mind that there's literally Millions available that look surprisingly just like the plasticized wonder! JMHO >>

People actually collect moderns. This may seem incredible but some people think this crap is
coins and are worthy of being collected. More incredibly there are scarce issues and there are
some which are scarce in high grade. No amount of plastic can make a silk purse out of sow's
crap.

dragon · June 16, 2005 1:38PM

Very good initial post monsterman! I've always viewed most ultra grade moderns as nothing more than novelties and the result of clever promotion (PCGS Registry) and also the bigger fool theory.

I could never really understand why anyone would pay big bucks for an MS70 whatever that has a mintage in the hundreds of millions, and there are millions of MS67 and better coins of that date at a small fraction of the price. You must also take into account the very fine and many times undefined line between an MS69 modern and an MS70 modern......this is one of the biggest grey areas in all of 3rd party grading IMO, and those two grades can interchange on any given day. For the modern experts that say I am crazy and there is a distinct difference between PCGS MS69 / PF69 and MS70 / PR70 moderns, I would defy them to crack out one of their PR70 PCGS coins, and resubmit it in full confidence of receiving the same PR70 grade the second time around.

ttown · June 16, 2005 1:45PM

Coins are like any other hobby - old or rare doesn't mean squat! Collector bases drive prices. I have quite a few hobbies but let's take cars for example a old rare car that's one your daddy drove doesn't bring a whole lot but get a modern Muscle car in the 60's and big bucks can be had because so many people want them. I have rare pocket watches I collect that number less than 100 total that can be had for under a grand (many around $500), rare and a work of art, will they skyrocket someday? Only collector will decide that.

A big minus in the coin market IMO is not too many are collecting a series anymore and many series run for decades. They all look the same except for a mint mark or date and people have to magaify them many times to judge them. Funny how many complaining that they broke out a coin a MS65 comes back a grade or two lower and are pissed like this is a science or something

cladking · June 16, 2005 1:59PM

<< Very good initial post monsterman! I've always viewed most ultra grade moderns as nothing more than novelties and the result of clever promotion (PCGS Registry) and also the bigger fool theory.

I could never really understand why anyone would pay big bucks for an MS70 whatever that has a mintage in the hundreds of millions, and there are millions of MS67 and better coins of that date at a small fraction of the price. You must also take into account the very fine and many times undefined line between an MS69 modern and an MS70 modern......this is one of the biggest grey areas in all of 3rd party grading IMO, and those two grades can interchange on any given day. For the modern experts that say I am crazy and there is a distinct difference between PCGS MS69 / PF69 and MS70 / PR70 moderns, I would defy them to crack out one of their PR70 PCGS coins, and resubmit it in full confidence of receiving the same PR70 grade the second time around. >>

It's certainly curious that so many seem to consider the fact that these particular
coins are moderns to even be pertinent to the case. Am I to believe that if these
were Morgan dollars it would launch a wave of Morgan dollar bashing and that it
would continually be pointed out that most Morgan dollars are far more common in
unc than are most clad quarters? If Morgan dollars had developed spots in the hold-
ers would there be many who felt that it was the purchasers own fault for buying
coins that were made in the millions and have been in storage for more than a century?
Surely people realize that large percentages of Morgans have been dipped and it's
very well known that dipped coins can turn. There can be huge premiums for the high-
est grades of these coins and there are still rolls and bags turning up. Who knows
how many more of these coins will be made in the future.

Lest you think I take some offence at the quoted post, no, I really don't. Some of
the implications are annoying since they have been addressed but no offense is
taken. Perhaps the most annoying is that all moderns are damned because people
can't usually consistently tell the difference between MS or PR 69 and 70. This is true
but it again belies the fact that many moderns do not even exist in these high grades.
In the high grades they do actually exist just about anyone can tell the best from the
nearly best.

While it seems improbable that the fact these coins are moderns is relevant, it is sim-
ply incomprehensible to me how it follows that all moderns are worthless or only of
value to the greater fool. It is equally incomprehensible to understand how it follows
that MS-70 eagles are junk. It would seem as though if it's true that many are going
bad than the survivors should be even more desirable.

Mercury · June 16, 2005 2:01PM

People actually collect moderns. This may seem incredible but some people think this crap is
coins and are worthy of being collected. More incredibly there are scarce issues and there are
some which are scarce in high grade. No amount of plastic can make a silk purse out of sow's
crap.

I know many may laugh at this but I have the number one 2003 mint set on NGC's registery. I have made every coin myself. I know alot of people think this does not compare with the PCGS registery. However, I enjoy the hunt of high grade coins and they are not as easy to find as you might think, and I am trying to do this on a budget. I have purchased many 2003 uncirculated sets and rolls of coins. I am not saying I am an expert but I have to agree with Cladking, finding the few gems out of millions of examples is not easy

On the football note of this thread.....I grew up in Houston and remember....I Love You Blue you know that I do...........

DHeath · June 16, 2005 2:17PM

moderns are not rare...cant go up

Quick, whats the PCGS population of Dcam 67 Lincolns in ANY grade? How about 66? OK, there IS one 66. Since one of these will easily pay for a few low pop classic coins, why aren't they being submitted? Aren't there enough Lincoln collectors for the coin to be interesting? Surely there is more than 1. You guys keep generalizing, and I'll continue searching selectively.

Bochiman · June 16, 2005 2:38PM

<< moderns are not rare...cant go up

Quick, whats the PCGS population of Dcam 67 Lincolns in ANY grade? How about 66? OK, there IS one 66. Since one of these will easily pay for a few low pop classic coins, why aren't they being submitted? Aren't there enough Lincoln collectors for the coin to be interesting? Surely there is more than 1. You guys keep generalizing, and I'll continue searching selectively.

>>

F117ASR · June 16, 2005 2:39PM

<< m I to believe that if these were Morgan dollars it would launch a wave of Morgan dollar bashing and that it
would continually be pointed out that most Morgan dollars are far more common in
unc than are most clad quarters? If Morgan dollars had developed spots in the hold-
ers would there be many who felt that it was the purchasers own fault for buying
coins that were made in the millions and have been in storage for more than a century?
Surely people realize that large percentages of Morgans have been dipped and it's
very well known that dipped coins can turn. There can be huge premiums for the high-
est grades of these coins and there are still rolls and bags turning up. Who knows
how many more of these coins will be made in the future.
>>

An excellent thought. With all of the morgan threads, I sometimes feel that they are common as dirt in unc . I know this is not true but the threads make me feel this way. Those who feel this way about moderns probably do because they are not active collectors in these fields just as I am not into morgans. If there were a million stella threads and each one was paraded 5 times daily we may begin to see stellas a common. To say moderns are common in MS69 and MS70 is far from the truth and it will depend on the coin, the series, the year, the mintmark, and the variety, just as all coins of all series do.

Newmismatist · June 16, 2005 2:42PM

<< People actually collect moderns. This may seem incredible but some people think this crap is
coins and are worthy of being collected. More incredibly there are scarce issues and there are
some which are scarce in high grade. No amount of plastic can make a silk purse out of sow's
crap. >>

1. I never said moderns are crap, nor did I say they are not worthy of being collectable coins - what I said was be careful paying a lot of money for a coin whose value is completely dependent on the grade OPINION on that little piece of paper in the plastic slab. Without that opinion, the value evaporates because without the paper and the surrounding plastic, the coin has no intrinsic rarity.

2. There is no discernable difference between 69s and 70s. I would make an educated guess that if one were to crack out any MS/PF70 coin and submit it as part of a 5 coin modern submission, it would not come back as a 70. The grading & slabbing of most MS/PF70 coins come from bulk submissions, something like a slot machine - put in enough coins and eventually a winner comes out, but in the end the House always wins.

As for plastic making a silk purse out of sows crap, grading is an opinion, and like that famous 1963 Pr64RB Lincoln Memorial cent that was in a PR70DCam holder, the opinion on that paper insert was the only thing that made that 25 cent coin worth $39,600. I was at both Heritage auctions when it sold for 5 figure money - the 1st when someone with more mney than brains bought it for his registry set and the second when PCGS bought it back and it was announced in the auction room that PCGS would not "grade guarantee" that coin.

The recent Spotted MS70 SAEs somewhat prove the point that Greg is making: If someone pays too much money for an "MS70" coin that is otherwise common, PCGS is not going to save the buyer from his stupidity and repurchase the coins for more than they are worth, and they may not be worth much as more are graded. Bear in mind that ultimately it is PCGS that determines the number that are "worthy" of an MS70 grade - and it's their OPINION that counts - but there is no quantifiable basis that would limit them to only a few coins - they could grade 1 coin a 70, or a 1000, and as it is only an opinion, there is no way to say that that opinion is right or wrong.

Mercury · June 16, 2005 3:02PM

Mabye I am coming at this from a different point of view than some of you. I would never buy a modern MS69 or MS70 coin. I try and make them. I do think a lot of retailers try and sell these for more than they are really worth. However, I feel the price of whatever sets or rolls I buy plus grading fees will eventually bring positive results, if I can cull from them coins that grade high. I understand this is a gamble, but I also think there will be fare fewer high grade coins coming out of the woodworks in later years as some have indicated there will be.

wondercoin · June 16, 2005 3:11PM

"i might add if you really did your homework...and knew the pops of how many were made...such as the platinum coins were only 8000 were made......there is upside to the 70 grade....if pcgs stuck to their 1/2 % makes 70 then with a total possible pop of 40 ( but more like 25 seems right ...with enough demand ( and we all know the mint markets )....you can have a nice upside"

MM: You have obviously done your homework

Wondercoin

Bochiman · June 16, 2005 3:17PM

<< Mabye I am coming at this from a different point of view than some of you. I would never buy a modern MS69 or MS70 coin. I try and make them. I do think a lot of retailers try and sell these for more than they are really worth. However, I feel the price of whatever sets or rolls I buy plus grading fees will eventually bring positive results, if I can cull from them coins that grade high. I understand this is a gamble, but I also think there will be fare fewer high grade coins coming out of the woodworks in later years as some have indicated there will be. >>

Cool. Since 1968 is considered modern, can you do me a favor then? Can you, or anyone else here, go make me some MS69 coins from that year? I would love a nice MS69 quarter, or lincoln, or even jefferson. Maybe a MS69 kennedy.

I'll pay you 3x submission costs

Seriously, I think that many people don't realize how hard some of the moderns are.....they aren't all state quarters you know.

Mercury · June 16, 2005 3:38PM

Bochiman, I agree with you. I dont care if you are talking 1968 or 2003, I do not think the high grade coins jump out at you. You have to work for them. This either takes time and knowledege to go through set, rolls, etc. or $$ to buy the ones others have made.

michael · June 16, 2005 3:45PM

Newmismatist
Collector

Posts: 1097
Joined: Dec 2002
Friday June 17, 2005 12:42 AM

<< People actually collect moderns. This may seem incredible but some people think this crap is
coins and are worthy of being collected. More incredibly there are scarce issues and there are
some which are scarce in high grade. No amount of plastic can make a silk purse out of sow's
crap. >>

1. I never said moderns are crap, nor did I say they are not worthy of being collectable coins - what I said was be careful paying a lot of money for a coin whose value is completely dependent on the grade OPINION on that little piece of paper in the plastic slab. Without that opinion, the value evaporates because without the paper and the surrounding plastic, the coin has no intrinsic rarity.

2. There is no discernable difference between 69s and 70s. I would make an educated guess that if one were to crack out any MS/PF70 coin and submit it as part of a 5 coin modern submission, it would not come back as a 70. The grading & slabbing of most MS/PF70 coins come from bulk submissions, something like a slot machine - put in enough coins and eventually a winner comes out, but in the end the House always wins.

As for plastic making a silk purse out of sows crap, grading is an opinion, and like that famous 1963 Pr64RB Lincoln Memorial cent that was in a PR70DCam holder, the opinion on that paper insert was the only thing that made that 25 cent coin worth $39,600. I was at both Heritage auctions when it sold for 5 figure money - the 1st when someone with more mney than brains bought it for his registry set and the second when PCGS bought it back and it was announced in the auction room that PCGS would not "grade guarantee" that coin.

The recent Spotted MS70 SAEs somewhat prove the point that Greg is making: If someone pays too much money for an "MS70" coin that is otherwise common, PCGS is not going to save the buyer from his stupidity and repurchase the coins for more than they are worth, and they may not be worth much as more are graded. Bear in mind that ultimately it is PCGS that determines the number that are "worthy" of an MS70 grade - and it's their OPINION that counts - but there is no quantifiable basis that would limit them to only a few coins - they could grade 1 coin a 70, or a 1000, and as it is only an opinion, there is no way to say that that opinion is right or wrong.

RegistryCoin · June 16, 2005 3:47PM

Threads have many fibers... This thread was started by a very experienced and very smart man. I am moved that he, between the time of the first post and the latest, has taken the time to look deeper, heeding the suggestions of some. The mintages do reveal some very enticing numbers. I have tried to explain that all 70s are not the same. Some moderns may never see a 70 graded. Some entire years, some entire series may never see a pcgs 70 graded. There are some modern series that combine the low mintage with rarity at the highest grade levels. They won't jump out at you. One has to do his homework, and spend wisely. Thanks for taking the second look Monsterman.

michael · June 16, 2005 3:48PM

Thread Title: david hall- ben- and moderns

the emperors new clothes..............................

i wonder when the child will speak up?

and

then what will become of the tailors who made the emperors new clothes?

morgannut2 · June 16, 2005 4:05PM

But everyone's arguement is based on obtaining the acceptance of basically two corporations. No corporation, little value. Yes, there is a difference between moderns in MS-65, MS-67, and MS-69. The problem is there is no widespread collector base that can readily tell the difference without the help of the TPG's setting some standard. More importantly the demand is Registry based, and so values into 4 or 5 figures Registry based.

Why is that so important? Because decades before the TPG's, collectors were able to grade raw classic dates without any holder and decide with some consistency big differences in value based on grade/eye appeal. They ranked coins to be sure, but it was on raw quality and rarity. This is the reason that the Clapp or other older high-grade collections were worth so much before the benefit of TPG grading. Sorry, you take most moderns out of their holders and lose the Registry, then you will never see 4 figure bids. Take any Clapp/ Eliasburg coins out of their holders, they go for the same decades old price premiums, with or without the Registry and TPG grades.

The modern coins are fine. I collect them raw and watch them tone. But value certified is primarily from two corporation's grades and registries, not the collectability of the coins per se.

Mercury · June 16, 2005 4:18PM

I hate to be so obvious and say that was then, this is now and things change. Yes, classic coins are classic and will always be treated diffrent. That does not mean that modern coins have no value. I think modern coins need to be thought about in a diffrent way. You are trying to compare coins that were made in the thousands by hand with coins made in the millions by machine. The whole thought process needs to be diffrent. In some of the classic coins if you find a VF or XF example that has not been cleaned and graded before, it is a major score. With modern coins it is all about condition, and I think there will be far fewer examples of high grade coins showing up in the future than many think.

RegistryCoin · June 16, 2005 4:22PM

A coin with a total mintage of 8000 coins is not plentiful, no matter how widespread the collector base is. Quality does vary with moderns whether or not they are graded by individuals or TPGs, and there will always be a collector base for top quality coins. I have only collected for several decades, and all I remember about grading before TPGs is getting ripped on grade at the time of purchase and ripped on price at the time of sale. I don't think that everyone's arguement is based on obtaining the acceptance of basically two corporations. Rather, I think that arguements may be based on RETAINING their acceptance, and I see no reason, other than perhaps corporate emplosion, that the demand for high quality third party graded low mintage coins will grow and grow.
ps. ...and so far, each and every time we see another arguement fearing the downfall of TPGs, the collectibility of moderns and their projected longevity, the collector base has grown, demand has increased, and prices have appreciated, and I bet these factors will continue to grow after this discussion, the next, and the one after that.

TonedPeaceNut · June 16, 2005 4:48PM

<< pcgs or any other service cant hold people harmless if a coin changes...they better if they blew the grade or its a fake but thats it... >>

Ummm... no.... PCGS puts forth a guaranty and it can be enforced, very simple actually, its called the Uniform Commercial Code.

But I will certainly defer to you as to matters of the grid-iron.

TPN

david hall- ben- and moderns

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