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Counterfeit Micro Os... another chapter
RobJoyce1921dVAMguy
Posts: 942 ✭✭
I sent a pair of coins to Leroy for examination. They had the 1900-O die gouge markers from both the Micro O and VAM-22 reverses. Leroy asked to see them as the one VAM-22 he examined was low grade and he was concerned that these were counterfeits as well? turns out they are!
Rob
(repasted original emails to get rid of html spaghetti!)
From: "Leroy Van Allen"
To: "Rob Joyce"
Subject: 1900 O Counterfeits
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:53:50 -0400
Hi Rob:
Rcvd your F & VF 1900 O VAM 22 today.
As I had suspected, they are both counterfeits. One I had seen from Jack Lee last March was Fine, toned and dirty. Yours shows details better!
There are same two depressions or indents on both of your VAM 22 -- one above cap and one at upper rt of rt 0 in date. These also show on my VF 1900 O VAM 5 micro O that has same gouges above M in UNUM. The depressions makes them obvious counterfeits.
But to add to the mystery story, your two VAM 22 have different mint mark positions & therefore different reverse dies. VF shows fine pitting of cast counterfeit. So here we have two more counterfeit reverse dies!! These are pretty well done cast counterfeits. Wonder how many other counterfeits are out there-- scary!!
Just begun studying your coins but wanted to let you know I rcvd them and they look fake.
Leroy
From: "Leroy Van Allen"
To: "Rob Joyce"
Subject: Counterfeits
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 00:18:37 -0400
Hi Rob:
A follow-up on your two 1900 O VAM 22? counterfeits-- thanks for sending them!!.
Rev of one matches O m/m of VAM 22 that I saw & listed of Jack Lee's coin last March with O m/m tilted slightly to rt. Has C3 rev. 181 reeds. 1.490 diameter.
Other coin has same obv with lines above M but rev has high O m/m set to rt. Fine raised pits on rev. Has C4 rev which wasn't used on 1900 O dies. So counterfeiters used wrong rev design type on this die combo as they did for 1902 O micro O. 181 reeds. Diameter varied from 1.491 to 1.497, the widest range I've seen on a Morgan $. Reeding wasn't banged up either.
These two die combos were made using cast counterfeit dies, like micro Os.
So that makes one collar used on 1896 O, 1900 O & 1902 O micro Os, one collar for 1900 O VAM 22 & one collar used for 1900 high O m/m. Counterfeiters could have struck a lot of coins-- tens or hundreds of thousands of counterfeit coins with three collars, five known rev dies & three known obv dies!! May be more counterfeit die struck coins to be discovered out there. Would likely be circ coins as these are.
This must have been a large counterfeiting operation-- maybe we have only discovered a few die combos of a larger number that they used. Would have to search thru circ coins to find more of them though as counterfeiters apparently placed all of their coins into circulation to make them hard to detect.
Incidentally, 1879 S VAM 45 is also a counterfeit from cast dies. Have been telling collectors this since last Feb when was sent some of them to examine. Has rough left wreath with missing portions. Raised dots all over rev field. Round date digits. Rough edges of cap. Crudely made compared to micro O counterfeits!
Leroy
Rob
(repasted original emails to get rid of html spaghetti!)
From: "Leroy Van Allen"
To: "Rob Joyce"
Subject: 1900 O Counterfeits
Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:53:50 -0400
Hi Rob:
Rcvd your F & VF 1900 O VAM 22 today.
As I had suspected, they are both counterfeits. One I had seen from Jack Lee last March was Fine, toned and dirty. Yours shows details better!
There are same two depressions or indents on both of your VAM 22 -- one above cap and one at upper rt of rt 0 in date. These also show on my VF 1900 O VAM 5 micro O that has same gouges above M in UNUM. The depressions makes them obvious counterfeits.
But to add to the mystery story, your two VAM 22 have different mint mark positions & therefore different reverse dies. VF shows fine pitting of cast counterfeit. So here we have two more counterfeit reverse dies!! These are pretty well done cast counterfeits. Wonder how many other counterfeits are out there-- scary!!
Just begun studying your coins but wanted to let you know I rcvd them and they look fake.
Leroy
From: "Leroy Van Allen"
To: "Rob Joyce"
Subject: Counterfeits
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 00:18:37 -0400
Hi Rob:
A follow-up on your two 1900 O VAM 22? counterfeits-- thanks for sending them!!.
Rev of one matches O m/m of VAM 22 that I saw & listed of Jack Lee's coin last March with O m/m tilted slightly to rt. Has C3 rev. 181 reeds. 1.490 diameter.
Other coin has same obv with lines above M but rev has high O m/m set to rt. Fine raised pits on rev. Has C4 rev which wasn't used on 1900 O dies. So counterfeiters used wrong rev design type on this die combo as they did for 1902 O micro O. 181 reeds. Diameter varied from 1.491 to 1.497, the widest range I've seen on a Morgan $. Reeding wasn't banged up either.
These two die combos were made using cast counterfeit dies, like micro Os.
So that makes one collar used on 1896 O, 1900 O & 1902 O micro Os, one collar for 1900 O VAM 22 & one collar used for 1900 high O m/m. Counterfeiters could have struck a lot of coins-- tens or hundreds of thousands of counterfeit coins with three collars, five known rev dies & three known obv dies!! May be more counterfeit die struck coins to be discovered out there. Would likely be circ coins as these are.
This must have been a large counterfeiting operation-- maybe we have only discovered a few die combos of a larger number that they used. Would have to search thru circ coins to find more of them though as counterfeiters apparently placed all of their coins into circulation to make them hard to detect.
Incidentally, 1879 S VAM 45 is also a counterfeit from cast dies. Have been telling collectors this since last Feb when was sent some of them to examine. Has rough left wreath with missing portions. Raised dots all over rev field. Round date digits. Rough edges of cap. Crudely made compared to micro O counterfeits!
Leroy
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
Rob
http://www.vamworld.com
and
http://www.rjrc.com
<< <i>Nice html coding.
Russ, NCNE >>
Bah, I missed it
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
The mystery still remains as to when these were made any by whom. Since the counterfeiters weren't careful to match up valid obverse and reverse die combinations, one would think that had they been made in the mid-20th century, they'd have had a good chance at grabbing a 1921 die somewhere along the line and giving us an 1896-D or 1921-O, or something more subtle, like a 1902 with a reverse of 1921. (Of course, looking at how mushy most 1921-S Morgans are, you'd think all of them were counterfeit.) The price of silver bounced around a lot between 1914 and 1920. World War I and speculation in China drove the price up to just over melt. As a result, millions of silver dollars headed to China in 1919 and 1920. None of these would have been dated 1921. When the value of silver tanked down to 60c/ounce in 1920, speculators were left holding a pretty big loss.
Meanwhile, Prohibition had just taken effect in the U.S., making organized crime powerful and well organized. Would it be a stretch for some wise guys here to pay a decent counterfeiter 75c for each silver dollar made out of what was now only about 45c worth of silver? The speculators that had paid $1.30 an ounce and melted the silver down would be cutting their losses quite a bit.
Interesting to think about, anyway.
(Edited to fix a typo and leave at least one more to see if you're paying attention.)
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>as to when these were made any by whom.
(Edited to fix a typo and leave at least one more to see if you're paying attention.) >>
"and" by whom. What do I win?
That's very interesting information guys. I hope the experts (like yourselves) are collecting and photographing. A book could be written about counterfeit Morgans.
<< <i>
<< <i>as to when these were made any by whom.
(Edited to fix a typo and leave at least one more to see if you're paying attention.) >>
"and" by whom. What do I win?
That's very interesting information guys. I hope the experts (like yourselves) are collecting and photographing. A book could be written about counterfeit Morgans. >>
You win a 10% discount on the book about counterfeit Morgans should I write one or collaborate in its production!
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution