Jefferson Experts, your opinion on 53 5FS MS-66 Jefferson

MJPHELAN · May 19, 2005 2:54AM

First, do you think this is MS-66? Second, I question the 5 FS designation because of the nick on the steps under the first pillar. I don't know NGC's tolerance of nicks on steps. IMO the pcgs 65 example is nicer (same auction).

Heritage NGC 1953 MS-66 5FS

Heritage PCGS 1953 MS-65FS

stephunter · May 19, 2005 5:12AM

Looks like quite a few hits on the obverse to garner the 66 grade. The reverse picture is horible, but as for the steps it looks like the nick is to deep to me.

keets · May 19, 2005 6:24AM

regarding the NGC coin---MS64 non FS.

a bad case of market grading for a tough date in the series. the steps will almost certainly look much better struck in hand when you can adjust the light angle to better see them, but that nick is a sure killer and the obverse unstruck planchet flaws and weak hair detail should have held the numerical grade back. even the central reverse is almost devoid of detail from the weak strike!!!! clean fields, good luster and pleasing tone shouldn't carry a weak strike.

my thoughts are that dates like this are assumed to have a weak strike and non-existent detail and are graded accordingly which would justify the assigned grade, much like Buffalo D/S Mint coins; i don't necessarily agree with that thinking.

my comment was directed at the NGC coin and was intended to indicate that i thought PCGS would grade it as MS64 non FS. the PCGS link wasn't up at the time i posted, but looking at that coin now i'd think MS64FS. unstruck planchet flaws or not, that roughness on the obverse portrait detracts from the appearance, as does lack of detail from a weak strike.

clackamas · May 19, 2005 6:57AM

I see why the PCGS coin is a 65, and has little hope of upgrading. I could see the NGC coin going 6 sometimes and 5 on another day. The marks on the cheek are planchet flaws so technically they should not detract from the grade but they do sometimes. I suspect the PCGS coin hack on the cheek may in fact be a planchet flaw as well. The NGC coin has the weaker strike but is fairly clean. The mark on the lapel by itself would not always be enough to bump it down to 5 at pcgs but today I think it would. I think it is a low end 6 high end 5, essentially a border coin, IMO. 64 is way too harsh

leothelyon · May 25, 2005 8:26AM

Finally getting around to checking out these coins on the Heritage website!
I see that there is a 1952, 1953, 1954, 1958, a 1961 all grading MS66! And a NGC MS67 1961-D.
NGC graded nickels!
Has anyone seen my report on PCGS and NGC certified coins that have sold in Heritage and Teletrade lately?
Here it is once again for the 3rd time! I have posted this data at both PCGS and NGC without a reply! lol
After viewing these numbers what do they tell you about what those coins actually grade?

I've been doing some research and comparisons with the number of Pcgs and Ngc certified coins (business strike nickels only, dating back to January 2000) that have sold through the Heritage and Teletrade (nickels only dating from 1938 to 1970)
Here's the run down on coins sold, Pcgs verses Ngc through Heritage auctions since January 2000.
.............Pcgs......Ngc
MS67.......247......533........1006
MS66......1000......536.......1012
MS65........728.......33..........62
MS64........111........8...........15
Total.......2096....1110.......2096

96% of Ngc coins that sold thru Heritage grade MS66 and MS67 while Pcgs has a 59% rating for the same two grades of coins.
The percent of Pcgs coins that grade MS67 is only 12% compared to Ngc's 53%

And here are the numbers for Pcgs and Ngc that sold through Teletrade in the last 360 days.
............Pcgs......%.........Ngc........%............
MS67......177.....9.8.........378........39.2..........704
MS66......722....40.2........442........45.9..........823
MS65......643....36.8........118........12.2..........219
MS64......226....12.6........ 22..........2.2............41
MS63........26....,1.4...........3...........,.3............5.6
Total......1794.................963........................1794

NGC numbers indicate that 85% of their nickel slabs that sell through Teletrade grade MS66 and MS67 while the percent for for Pcgs is at 50%
Ngc grades almost 4X (704/177) the number of MS67 coins than Pcgs.
While Pcgs grades almost 3X (643/219) the number of MS65 coins than Ngc.
While Pcgs grades almost 5.5X (226/41) the number of MS64 coins than Ngc.

The last column of numbers show what Ngc would have graded/sold if their total
numbers were equal to Pcgs.

Leo

leothelyon · May 25, 2005 9:32PM

Other than those coins being round and possibly having steps what else do they have going for them!

Leo

MJPHELAN · May 25, 2005 9:52PM

Cool analysis Leo.

Mark

leothelyon · May 26, 2005 7:12AM

<< Cool analysis Leo.

Mark >>

Finally someone has responded to my analysis (good choice of a word), thank you Mark! But what do you think about it? Do you believe the chances are pretty high for receiving a MS66 or 67 grade if you send your JN to NGC? What really bites, I recently subscribed to NGC but after seeing how everyone has MS67 coins in their nickel collections and the above stats..........
so what's the point in sending my nickels to NGC?

Leo

MJPHELAN · May 26, 2005 7:23AM

Your data confirm a gut feeling I have had all along. I will no longer buy NGC slabbed nickels sight unseen. I would be curious to see what percentage of NGC Jeffersons could cross at the same grade to PCGS.

NIckelCollector · May 26, 2005 8:06AM

Mark:

I checked out both coins and neither appears to have full steps, but it is really hard to tell for sure. I also prefer the PCGS example - better obverse strike, but it looks graded right at MS65. The NGC coin looks over graded. Has anyone seen these coins in person?

Leo:

I thought your analysis was informative. Generally I discount an NGC Jefferson by 1 grade compared to PCGS. Your analysis confirms a discount. However, I think NGC is a little more consistent on their full step definition. I would not buy any coin designated as full steps without a return privilege.

Frank

nicknut12 · June 1, 2005 1:02PM

Leo.

I believe, I have read some other threads in this PCGS cyberworld,
claiming the same thing for other series.
As in "lower grading standard for NGC", etc.

As a matter of fact, I believe one gentleman claimed that 75% plus
of all ultra high grade type is in NGC holders, because PCGS does
not grade "high enough".

Nothing really special about the Jeffersons.

Regards, Steve.

DennisH · June 1, 2005 1:33PM

I have never had an NGC-graded Jefferson cross at the same grade at PCGS... in or out of the holder. The best result I know of is a friend who cracked out 13 and got one back from PCGS at the same grade.

spy88 · June 1, 2005 3:02PM

Mark---

I also think the NGC is overgraded by a point. Technically, I see the reverse as a 66 but the obverse as a 64. Granted, 53 Jeffs (and other years) are notorious for weak strikes from all 3 mints and I'm sure this probably was taken into consideration, but I've seen much stronger strikes. The PCGS looks to be properly graded at 65. As for the FS of both coins, it's really too hard to jump off either side of the fence because of the pics.

<< I don't know NGC's tolerance of nicks on steps. >>

I've tried to figure this out myself from submissions and can only conclude it is based on who the grader is. I could show you pics of attributed FSers that weren't and visa versa. Same for grades within the same submission as if there were two graders doing their thing (and maybe there was).

Leo---

In theory, I agree with your mathematical analysis but one has to consider the merits of each and every coin involved to form any conclusive proof for over or undergrading. I grant you it does lend one to at least consider this possible but who's to say unequivocally, that NGC gives out more undeserved 66/67 grades then PCGS without actually seeing the coins? Even then, were they all available for regrade by those of us that know the series, there will still be disagreements. There always has been---there always will be.

Al---

<< ...the steps will almost certainly look much better struck in hand when you can adjust the light angle to better see them >>

<< ...the obverse unstruck planchet flaws and weak hair detail should have held the numerical grade back. even the central reverse is almost devoid of detail from the weak strike!!!! clean fields, good luster and pleasing tone shouldn't carry a weak strike. >>

I agree 100%.

Frank---

<< I think NGC is a little more consistent on their full step definition. I would not buy any coin designated as full steps without a return privilege. >>

I also agree with this 100%, the key word being ANY regardless of slab.

JMHOFWIW

MJPHELAN · June 2, 2005 6:00AM

Looks like the pcgs example closed at just over 6K with the juice (internet bidding-live auction pending)

CarlWohlforth · June 2, 2005 7:02AM

I've had better luck crossing NGC MS Jeffs to PCGS than any other series. I'm 3 out of 4. They were all MS 67 FS. They all had 6 full steps and this was several years ago. Anyway it isn't a big sample at all.

leothelyon · June 2, 2005 7:04AM

This PCGS MS65FS coin is the same that sold for $920 back in Dec 2004. Link
I'm wondering if Charlie Adkins tried to cross this coin but failed? I know that a few of his coins did cross.
I'll send him an email and shoot the question to him. Later.

Leo

stephunter · June 2, 2005 7:24AM

<< I have never had an NGC-graded Jefferson cross at the same grade at PCGS... in or out of the holder. The best result I know of is a friend who cracked out 13 and got one back from PCGS at the same grade. >>

I have only tried to cross two. One was a 45 DDR (FS-030) that was NGC MS66 and it crossed. The other was a 39 proof reverse of 40 NGC PF66 and it crossed also. Might just be luck, but these are the only two that I have tried.

leothelyon · June 2, 2005 9:31PM

I've received word back from the original owner and the coin did fail to cross. Obviously the coin was cracked out and resubmitted by the new owner of the Dec. sale. Albeit it's the same coin but now it's a $6000 coin!
From the pictures, the coin is not MS65 and I have beliefs now that it's not a full step nickel. There appears some heavy nicks and bridging in the steps. If someone can get a personal look at the coin for me and let me know, I'd appreciate it.

Leo

keets · June 2, 2005 10:28PM

hey Leo

i'll stick with my original MS64FS assessment!!!

sight-unseen, i find ANACS graded Proofcoins to be safe PCGS crossover candidates but not their MS counterparts. ANACS tends to grade technically correct while PCGS tends to market grade with a heavy premium on luster. also, ANACS counts steps in the same manner as the FSNC while PCGS counts steps straight 1-2-3-4-5 with no consideration given to missing quarters/sections of number six.

based on that criteria, the coin probably grades MS65 strictly on technical merit with bridges/nicks which would preclude a FS designation. PCGS may have awarded the FS designation as a market concession or else what appear as bridges or gouges in the pictures are accentuated and actually the steps are unbridged.

MJPHELAN · June 2, 2005 11:25PM

While we are on the subject, did anyone look at the 1950 MS-66FS (PCGS) in the same auction? It did not look FS to me in the picture. Did anyone see it in person?

leothelyon · June 3, 2005 6:41AM

PCGS coin sold for $6,325.00
NGC coin sold for $6600.00

Keets
The Dec. owner wants his comments left out of this discussion so I can't say much other than, it's too bad these big auction houses can't provide better pics of the steps. It doesn't matter now since there's little to base an argument on other than if PCGS (and NGC) thinks so then it must be correct! lol

Leo

Jefferson Experts, your opinion on 53 5FS MS-66 Jefferson

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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