It has been suggested that this coin is AT...what do you think?

nederveit · May 24, 2005 12:48PM

Recently I sent several coin (picture) links to an acquaintance that is getting back into the coin business. This person had been a dealer previously, but I don't know much about him or his level of expertise. His comments were:

Re the 1885 O. A dealer trick is how to "tone" these in rainbow hues...we'll talk next visit

What do you think about this coin and his comments in general? Here is the link to it (large image):

1885-O Morgan

cointagious · May 24, 2005 12:51PM

<< It has been suggested that this coin is AT...what do you think? >>

The coin has a market acceptable look. That's all that matters. If it was toned in a hot fry pan, who cares? It's got the right look.

DorkGirl · May 24, 2005 12:53PM

I think I would like his recipe

roadrunner · May 24, 2005 12:54PM

I would tend to say NT. The protected areas of the coin do have different colorations as would be expected for NT coins. I think it's time to review my ANA tape on toning once again. It's been nearly 2 years.

roadrunner

pharmer · May 24, 2005 12:56PM

And with a wink and a nod, and his finger tapping the side of his nose, he said "pcgs don't know jack" and went back to being a coin dealer.

K6AZ · May 24, 2005 12:59PM

That toning is impossible to duplicate. I would suggest that "dealer" find some other line of work.

TomB · May 24, 2005 1:01PM

Over the years I've had an enormous number of people tell me that they can "do that" yet I've never actually seen anyone "do that". In other words, he was blowing smoke.

dragon · May 24, 2005 1:02PM

<<< Re the 1885 O. A dealer trick is how to "tone" these in rainbow hues...we'll talk next visit >>>

Whoever said that is talking out his a$$ if he/she was implying that coin was artificially done to look like that.

dragon · May 24, 2005 1:04PM

Hi Tom!

K6AZ · May 24, 2005 1:05PM

<< Over the years I've had an enormous number of people tell me that they can "do that" yet I've never actually seen anyone "do that". In other words, he was blowing smoke. >>

Funny you should mention that Tom. I've had several over the years claim they can duplicate bag toned rainbows and crescents. In every case, where I offered to supply several white coins with unmistakable marks for them to demonstrate, there has always been some excuse.

nederveit · May 24, 2005 1:12PM

Thanks for the immediate feedback everyone.

TomB · May 24, 2005 1:14PM

Howdy Dragon!

The icon image that you use nederveit, is that your coin? I ask because I had owned a Merc that looked eerily similar to that one at one time.

Myqqy · May 24, 2005 1:55PM

Completely NT and freakin' BEAUTIFUL!!

numonebuyer · May 24, 2005 2:28PM

If that was AT, I say "let them all be AT". No way... That is a beautiful NT coin.

fountainheadgold · May 24, 2005 2:32PM

NT for sure

semolinapilchard · May 24, 2005 2:33PM

I am not an expert by any means, but the coin has the appearance of a number of coins that I know to have been "naturally toned." At worst, one might say that the scan(?) shows the coin in a slightly unusual light, but still not as AT, in my opinion.

mozin · May 24, 2005 2:37PM

Just buy them blast white and then there is no worry about AT.

fullerfun4 · May 24, 2005 3:34PM

Looks legit to me. Proper bands of color, protected areas are different. Looks nice to me.
Gary

nederveit · May 24, 2005 3:58PM

The icon image that you use nederveit, is that your coin? I ask because I had owned a Merc that looked eerily similar to that one at one time.

Yes, I own my icon coin. Admittedly not my picture; this beauty came from Lucy.

Thanks, appreciate the comments. I will certainly argue my case with this dealer, but am curious what 'methods' he thinks he is talking about.

TonedPeaceNut · May 24, 2005 5:41PM

I know that I'm going to run counter to everyone else's opinion, as to this coin I cant say, but that type of toning can be duplicated.

I've personally seen a crescent toned Peace $ with similar toning that I was told was indeed AT. A former board member owned the coin and returned it after close examination. The dealer who sold the coin also believed it to be AT. BTW -- it was slabbed by NGC and at first glance it appeared to be NT all the way.

I'm not sure where the coin is presently, but it was a great looking coin.

TPN

sumnom · May 24, 2005 7:16PM

The coin has a market acceptable look. That's all that matters. If it was toned in a hot fry pan, who cares? It's got the right look.

Agreed.

ER · May 24, 2005 8:07PM

<< 

<< It has been suggested that this coin is AT...what do you think? >>

The coin has a market acceptable look. That's all that matters. If it was toned in a hot fry pan, who cares? It's got the right look. >>

So true.

sumnom · May 24, 2005 9:32PM

Well, ER, we seem to agree. How troubling.

mr1931S · May 24, 2005 9:50PM

Looks "un-NT" to me. Looks dull; lifeless. The colors appear to have been painted on; not representative of natural toning progression. See Wayne Miller.

K6AZ · May 25, 2005 1:13AM

<< Looks "un-NT" to me. Looks dull; lifeless. The colors appear to have been painted on; not representative of natural toning progression. See Wayne Miller. >>

That image appears to be a scan, which will make it appear dull.

For those who think this can be duplicated, I have some white Morgans as I mentioned above. Let me know where to send them.

mgoodm3 · May 25, 2005 1:50AM

I like it.

etexmike · May 25, 2005 2:16AM

<< <<< Re the 1885 O. A dealer trick is how to "tone" these in rainbow hues...we'll talk next visit >>>

Whoever said that is talking out his a$$ if he/she was implying that coin was artificially done to look like that. >>

I have several Morgan dollars that have tone very similar in style and colors.

I don't care how they got that way. I think they look great and am proud to own them.

-----------

etexmike

mr1931S · May 25, 2005 11:53PM

"That image appears to be a scan, which will make it appear dull."

Agreed. This occurred to me as I viewed the coin. I am having difficulty, however, with the progression of colors as I understand they are supposed to happen on an NT coin.

"For those who think this can be duplicated, I have some white Morgans as I mentioned above. Let me know where to send them."

I think anything can be duplicated by a master forger. I don't know who you could send your white Morgans to for processing though.

"If I can produce something so correctly, so perfect that the experts declare it to be genuine, then for all practical purposes it is genuine. There is no fraud involved when I sell it."

-convicted master forger Mark Hoffman as related during a person interview given to the author (Charles Larson, Numismatic Forgery) at Utah State Prison in 1987.

bestclser1 · May 26, 2005 6:12AM

Absolutely NT,and nice as well.

morgannut2 · May 26, 2005 6:25AM

The 1885-O is one of the most common toned coins on the planet--Why would such a master forger waste is time???. Colors can appear dull for a lot of reasons including improper storage in a brown paper 2"X2" envelope.

The dealer is full of it IMHO---deal with someone knowledgeable.

mr1931S · May 26, 2005 8:00AM

"The 1885-O is one of the most common toned coins on the planet--Why would such a master forger waste is time???."

MS66 with rainbow colors. Why not waste 'is time? Artificially toning a coin to deceive collectors and third party grading services is forgery and forgery is about the money. Sorry, the coin just doesn't look NT to me regardless of whether some of you all think the color pattern could not be duplicated.

1885-O, since the date is so common with toning, is not going to have the same level of suspicion as a less-commonly seen date with toning would have. That's an essential part of mastery for the expert forger.

pharmer · May 26, 2005 8:05AM

Those master expert forger's think of everything, don't they?

mr1931S · May 26, 2005 8:52AM

Everything except how to get away with murder.

robertpr · May 26, 2005 1:03PM

It is a scan, so the colors will be off, but I belive the coin is NT. That image would not be the best for selling it, however.

morganbarber · May 26, 2005 1:20PM

Calling that coin AT is like having the opportunity to sleep with a ravishing woman, and then pointing out to her that she is not a virgin. Beauty is as beauty does.

relayer · May 26, 2005 2:49PM

I'd say it's market acceptable, since it's in a PCGS slab.

The lines do look too straight to me though

mr1931S · May 27, 2005 1:04AM

Yes, too straight. The geometry of the color pattern seen is not consistent with the shift of the presumed overlapping coin which would have had to occur at some point while the coin was in the bag close to the cloth.

The especially "straight" line of magenta makes the coin suspect as to how the colors were produced, in my opinion.

Question: Why isn't strong magenta seen below the neck around the first two digits of the date?

Higashiyama · May 27, 2005 1:20AM

"Question: Why isn't strong magenta seen below the neck around the first two digits of the date?"

Perhaps I don't understand the question, but it does not seem surprising that the toning would follow the neckline, just as it follows, to some extent, the lower part of her face.

mr1931S · May 27, 2005 1:45AM

I see some magenta on the cheek so it seems to me that there should be some below the neck around the first two digits of the date. The arc of the crescent we are supposed to be seeing on a naturally bag toned coin would be more established if magenta were seen in this area. That's why the question about magenta.

mr1931S · May 27, 2005 1:47AM

Sorry, I meant to say chin. Strike "cheek" and substitute with chin.

It has been suggested that this coin is AT...what do you think?

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