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Will Don Mattingly ever make the hall...in my lifetime?
RipublicaninMass
Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭
I have a beautiful sepia toned print of Boggs, Brett, and Mattingly. I am either going to ebay it, or struggle the rest of my life trying to get it auto'ed. It is a great photo, I wish I could scan it but it is rather large. IYHO do you think Mattingly will make the hall? I only want to chase the autos if he is going to make the hall...
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Mattingly dominated his position for a few years, but didn't win a World Series, and was slowed by injuries. He ultimately retired, according to him, to spend more time with his family even as his back felt much better.
The HOF has historically enshrined some serious jerks because they hit 500 home runs. Too bad the Hall voters don't take class, Golden Gloves, leadership ability (ie Donnie Baseball is one of very few Yankee captains) and how much a player is beloved more into consideration. Oh yeah, the stats were pretty good too!
Also...if Thurman Munson hasn't made it, it's a pretty good indication Donnie Baseball won't.
Just my opinion...but I'm right.
Doug
Sweet swing, HOF, just didn't play long enough though..
At least he wasn't a chicken-eating freak obsessed w/ masterbation like Wade Boggs.
Julen
____
"I'm Rich Biotch!!!! Honk Honk"
RIP GURU
<< <i>The HOF has historically enshrined some serious jerks because they hit 500 home runs. Too bad the Hall voters don't take class, Golden Gloves, leadership ability (ie Donnie Baseball is one of very few Yankee captains) and how much a player is beloved more into consideration. Oh yeah, the stats were pretty good too!
>>
Out of curiosity, which serious 500 jerks?
Don't get me wrong, I like Mattingly, but he's a huge long shot to make the hall. Class, being beloved and leadership ability are all very nice but are impossible to quantify and don't get me started and how meaningless Gold Gloves are. The voters basically ask who won last year, and unless that guy retired, he wins again this year! Donnie basically had 4-5 very good years, but that's it.
<< <i>
Out of curiosity, which serious 500 jerks? >>
#1 Cubfan
<< <i>"For the last time - No for Mattingly, Munson, Martinez, Murphy, Kaat, John and the rest of the crew we seem to argue about every three months or so" >>
Mattingly: .307 avg., 222 HR, 1099 RBI
Andre Dawson: .279 avg., 438 HR, 1591 RBI
If Hawk is not in, no way Mattingly gets in. I know Dawson played 7 more years, but the hall rewards long careers and consistency, as well it should. Mattingly had only 5 years if good numbers which is nowhere near enough for the Hall. Like I said, if he gets in it's because he's a Yankee, which is completely unfair to everybody who is not in and has better numbers and a longer career. And the string of 9 Gold Gloves is awesome, but that's the type of thing that will put a player over the edge if he's on the fence, which I don't think Donnie Baseball is. 3 more good years and he's in, but like you said his injuries hurt him and he opted to not play when he healed.
Lee
<< <i>At least he wasn't a chicken-eating freak obsessed w/ masterbation like .......Wade Boggs >>
For a second, I thought you were talking about me!!! AAARAAGGH
Ok after seeing the stats CDSnuts put up, I realize maybe he shouldn't deserve it. BTW I think Dawson does deserve a spot in the hall, and not just because he was an EXPO!
<< <i>Having a short career shouldnt matter. They voted Koufax in for basicly a six year career..... >>
Please don't compare Koufax to Don Mattingly...
<< <i>only comparing the 5 years of good numbers statement........... >>
5 ERA titles, 3 NL Triple Crowns, 3 Cy Young Awards and a MVP award compared to Mattingly's MVP and Gold Gloves?
I'm just saying that there really is no comparison.
Lee
But, man - this question keeps getting asked over and over...must be the ill effects of the Yankee propoganda machine.
FYI, here's the list of Mattingly's ten most similar players, compliments of Baseball Reference
1 Cecil Cooper (934)
2 Wally Joyner (907)
3 Hal McRae (900)
4 Kirby Puckett (895) *
5 John Olerud (879)
6 Will Clark (879)
7 Tony Oliva (872)
8 Keith Hernandez (862)
9 Jim Bottomley (860) *
10 Carl Furillo (857)
Anyone really wanna argue that being associated with these guys makes you a HoF'er? (And I *love* one of the players on the list...)
Tabe
So far only Skinpinch has offered really valid reasons that Mattingly may not make the HOF ever, but even he admits that Mattingly was one of the few players who could walk the streets in 1987 and be known as the best player in baseball. He is too close to being a HOF player to just simply say No way. Will Clark, John Olerud, and Cecil Copper have comparative lifetime stats to Mattingly, but none of those players were considered the best player in baseball, nor do they have those black ink numbers.
I have to check to make sure but is there any 1st baseman that had more Gold Gloves than Mattingly had after his back injury (4) who played since his time? Olerud has 3, Palmeiro about that much also, McGwire has one in the AL, JT Snow .... Mattingly was easily the top 3 defensive firstbaseman of all time. He was always ready to play the field. No injuries stopped him there. And in his last years of playing he was still in the top ten of most difficult to strike out, so he had value in the line up throughout his career.
Whatever side you argue, make sure you guys understand the rules of the HOF. The only quantitative requirement is 10 years service. The rest is all qualitative that can be backed by statistics, but there is no rule on it.
Anyway, if any of you care, there are lots of arguments that are already written on the board about this topic and I don't want to repeat myself here.
I will say this in regards to Mattingly. It does not matter if he makes the HOF or not. He is basically a HOF for practical purposes. He has no plaque at Cooperstown, but he is the most popular Yankee on the team right now, his cards sell at a level as if he were a HOFer. Fans act as though he is a HOFer. Baseball will not forget him. So, for your intents and purposes of getting the photo signed, go ahead and get it signed. Mattingly is a very popular player and the value of his signatures and memorobilia reflect that.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
I think the guy's great for baseball.
But, I don't think he's a Hall of Famer.
That's not an insult.
<< <i>Mattingly was easily the top 3 defensive firstbaseman of all time....And in his last years of playing he was still in the top ten of most difficult to strike out, so he had value in the line up throughout his career. >>
Good defense and not striking out are both good things, but on they are way, way down on the list of things I look for in a first baseman. Also, not striking out says little or nothing about a player's value to a lineup.
Had he not played for the Yankees, no one would even remember him.
Mattingly: .307 avg., 222 HR, 1099 RBI 13 years
Fielder: .255 avg., 319 HR, 1008 RBI 13 years
Sure you can see he had intangible qualities that you can't measure with stats, but the stats matter... a lot. Mattingly did not sustain an all star level of play for long enough compared to other guys with similar careers that are in the hall. Being a team leader on a crappy team doesn't help his case all that much. Unless the voters will ignore all the reasons they've voted people in over the past century, Mattingly will not get in. And yes, all you need is 10 years under your belt- that's why Juan Guzman is on the ballot this year. Should I list reasons why he shouldn't get in either?
Lee
I am not here to entertain the same arguments with different people. Cecil Fielder did not lead the league in HRs 9 times. Nor is he known as even the top 20 home run hitters of all time. Mattingly is known as at least as one of the top 10 defensive first baseman of all time. The Fielder HR argument compared with Mattingly's defense dominance is no comparison. Mattingly was a better defensive first baseman than Fielder was a HR hitter. What does all this mean? Absolutely nothing, I was just countering your point, which did not make any sense.
Here is the main point. Who cares about the HOF, Mattingly's cards, signed balls, bats, gloves and other stuff will be valuable. For those purposes, Mattingly is a collector's favorite. There will be people wanting his autograph, to hear him speak, and surrounding him whenever he makes guest appearances.
He may become a manager someday, he may become commissioner or he may even run for the Democratic party in local elections. This man has a big enough following and is respected by all, that no presence or absence of a plaque in the HOF is going to change that. I collect Mattingly cards, other Yankee fans do to, but so do a great many baseball fans because he was one of the most recognizeable players of the 80's and a great gentleman off the field. Is that so hard to accept? This is why I advise the original poster to get Mattingly's autograph if he could and not worry about whether he makes the HOF or not.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
I looked at his voting numbers and he started off at 28% of the 75% needed to get in on his first ballot, but his number of votes has declined every year and he is down to 11%. He is not close to getting into the hall. I also think you're overestimating the perception of Mattingly as a player for non-yankee fans, and the Hall of Fame voting would indicate as such.
Lee
Lee
<< <i>I am a HUGE Mattingly fan and believe he deserves Hall recognition (though some Yankee haters on this board would argue the point based on stats), but I don't think he'll ever make the HOF because there are so many other great Yankees he'll be compared to. >>
No, people are arguing against him because he doesn't deserve HoF induction. Nothing personal against him, he was a good player.
<< <i>
The HOF has historically enshrined some serious jerks because they hit 500 home runs. Too bad the Hall voters don't take class, Golden Gloves, leadership ability (ie Donnie Baseball is one of very few Yankee captains) and how much a player is beloved more into consideration. Oh yeah, the stats were pretty good too!
>>
Yeah, let's just automatically vote in all the nice guys....and hell, ALL of the yankee captains, because the yankees are the only team in MLB, right? Because being 'beloved' is more important than his production
<< <i>
Just my opinion...but I'm right.
Doug >>
No, you aren't.
Read the book. It's simply one of the best and most readable baseball books of the last fifteen years. (I was gonna say decade, but I guess I'm older than I thought...)
Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame
Actually said Mattingly is Hall of Fame talent that won't get in because of his back. Said as great as Donnie Baseball was, there were times in high school where he'd miss school because he couldn't get off the floor of his bedroom. This was in high school!! Talk about an Achillies Heal. Extraordinary talent that will be kept out of the hall for physical reasons. No doubt another five seasons would have sealed the deal, Yankee or not.
I do agree that numbers aren't the only factor in determining who is in the Hall. Obviously MVP's, World Series rings, longevity, etc. all factor in. And it is voted on by writers, so in any vote, being "popular" can help. There was a time when Mattingly was arguably the best player in baseball, if only for a handful of seasons. Seems to me he hit a homerun in 7 or 8 straight games at one point, amazing considering he finished with only 200+.
As far as numbers only are concerned, isn't Mark Grace the hit leader for the 90's? I don't think of him as a Hall of Famer but he had more hits than anyone in the game of baseball for a span of 10 years!!!! I wonder if there has been another decade in the history of baseball where a guy has led the league in hits for a decade and not gotten in? Of course, I'm thinking Rose probably led the 70's but he's not in for another reason. If you lead the league in hitting for a decade though, you've been one of the best for a long period of time. Is Grace in?
Okay, I'm rambling now. Like I said, if Gammons says Mattingly won't get in, he's not getting in. Now I'm off to research hit leaders in each decade because I'm driving myself crazy.
A Yankees captain says much more than being the Devil Rays captain.
Don't worry, Mariners fans, we'll vote in Jay Buhner when he comes around...
<< <i>FYI, here's the list of Mattingly's ten most similar players, compliments of Baseball Reference
1 Cecil Cooper (934)
2 Wally Joyner (907)
3 Hal McRae (900)
4 Kirby Puckett (895) *
5 John Olerud (879)
6 Will Clark (879)
7 Tony Oliva (872)
8 Keith Hernandez (862)
9 Jim Bottomley (860) *
10 Carl Furillo (857)
Anyone really wanna argue that being associated with these guys makes you a HoF'er? (And I *love* one of the players on the list...) >>
Just for reference, the list below is from the same source and purports to be the 10 most similar pitchers to Sandy Koufax. There's a few in there that aren't laughably dissimilar to Koufax, but the majority are. Just a caution not to take b-r's "similar" lists too seriously.
1 Ron Guidry (905)
2 Pedro Martinez (897)
3 Jack Coombs (885)
4 Ed Reulbach (859)
5 Andy Messersmith (858)
6 Mel Stottlemyre (856)
7 Lefty Gomez (856) *
8 Jim Maloney (855)
9 Ed Lopat (853)
10 Dave McNally (852)
And, IMHO, whether or not Mattingly belongs in the HOF depends on whether you mean the HOF as you wish it existed, or the HOF that really is. Mattingly was a better player than quite a number of first basemen who are already in the HOF (Chance, Terry, Cepeda among others), and in that sense "belongs". I'd prefer to say that none of them belong in the HOF, and while we can't undo past mistakes, we don't have to keep making them.
If anyone cares to debate that, it will take pages upon pages of research to show exactly what I mean, and I am not doing that for free. The research bears it out very well.
Deutschergeist, you raise some intersting points and the other posters never try to tackle your best points. They keep looking at Mattingly's career totals and compare him with other guys with similar career totals and think you are crazy.
I don't want to re-write what I wrote about Mattingly in your other posts, but in a nutshell there is most definately something to be said for a man that could walk down the street and rightly proclaim, "I am the best hitter on the face of the earth." Don Mattingly earned the right to make that statement in December of 1987(based on a three year span '85'-'87). He also had some other very nice years like '84, '88, and '89. Mattingly won't get in and Palmeiro will. THat is kind of sad in a way because Palmeiro was never remotely close to making the statement that Mattingly could in 1987. Yet because Palmeiro played long enough(which of course he resembles Harold Baines more than any other recent Hall of Famer), he will make it?
People are very strange. They say Mattingly is NOT a Hall of Famer, yet they would say YES, if he hung around as a below average first basemen and managed to rack up the 'automatic' 3,000 hits. As I showed in a previous post, that could have been very attainable, but Mattingly chose to retire.
So he is NOT a hall of Famer now, but if he hung around and hurt his team(by being below average) for five more years, then he all of a sudden becomes a HOF'er because he has 3,000 hits???? That is Deutchergeists logic, and it is sound logic at that.
Mattingly's dominance is better than guys like Rice, and is on par with Brett and Murray. He also isn't as far from Koufax as most think when you take the ballpark factor in for Koufax. Guys on the baseball reference resemblence list have no comparison in the dominance factor. Munson does not compare in the dominance factor either. Neither does kirby Puckett. Nor Palmeiro. Nor Paul Molitor, Nor Tony perez, Nor many other HOF'ers. The only guy who is not in the Hall that does compare to Mattingly's dominance is Dick Allen(his is better).
Mattingly was every bit as good as Murray and Brett in their primes, and the only thing that separates them is his prime was a littler shorter, and he didn't contribute until he was 40, which makes him come up a little short as a hall of Famer, but gives him better credentials than somebody like Palmeiro or Tony perez.
I will tell my grand kids about Mattingly in the 80's as that was something very special. As a comparison, I could care less about tellling them about palmerio(who was routinely the 20th best hitter in MLB), yet Mattingly will not be in the Hall and Palmeiro will!?!.
GALE SAYERS ranked 1,1,2,3,5 in Yards, and 2,2,3,4 in TD's. That isn't much different than Mattingly's AL finishes of 1,1,3,6 in OPS+ (plus he gets a bonus those years for good men on hitting). Plus he was first in all of MLB TWICE! It certainly is more interesting than Palmeiro's(look at his MLB ranks per year) or Perez's dominance, and Mattingly did enough to earn the right to be remembered, and isn't that what the Hall of Fame is?
He probably is not a Hall of Famer, but he, Dick Allen, and Ron Santo have the biggest gripes of all the guys not in...and Puckett, Molitor, Perez, and soon Palmeiro have to be the most fortunate men alive in regard to the Hall of Fame.
P.S. Koufax led MLB in ERA+ one time, Mattingly led MLB in OPS+ two times. Mattingly isn't as far from Koufax as many think when the ballpark is considered for Koufax.
Donnie Baseball had 9 Gold Gloves. 2nd on the all time list for 1st Basemen:
Multiple Winners of the Gold Glove Award
His back did him in and he could not drive the ball anymore. If he had hung on, as DeutscherGeist and Skinpinch mentioned, he might have gotten 3,000 hits.
Nuff said.
<< <i>He probably is not a Hall of Famer, but he, Dick Allen, and Ron Santo have the biggest gripes of all the guys not in...and Puckett, Molitor, Perez, and soon Palmeiro have to be the most fortunate men alive in regard to the Hall of Fame.
q]
I appreciate the kind words about my prior post, and I hope you take this in the unbiased spirit intended, but, while I agree with your point about Allen and Santo (especially Santo), I think you overstate your case with regard to Puckett and Molitor. Puckett and Molitor, like Mattingly, were better than many, many others that were already in the HOF. I think reasonable baseball minds could construct persuasive cases that any one of those three was better than the other two. They were all great players and very different than one another.
The luckiest people in the HOF are, in fact, mostly Yankees who benefited from playing on great teams with truly great players - Earle Combs, Waite Hoyt, Tony Lazzeri, Herb Pennock, Phil Rizzutto, and Red Ruffing are all MUCH luckier than Puckett or Molitor (or Perez for that matter).
Palmeiro's stats
That's no less than 14 years of consistently putting up all-star numbers. 22 HR and 88 RBI's is not exactly hurting the O's. Mattingly on the other hand, take a look at his last two years:
1994 .304, 6 HR, 54 RBI in 97 games
1995 .288, 7 HR, 49 RBI in 128 games
If you think he was even getting close to 3000 hits in the next 5 years at that rate you're dreaming. That's why it's such an accomplishment. The hall does not, and should not reward only a few years of Hall numbers, and that's what Mattingly has. If his back was better, maybe he would've lasted longer and put up the stats year after year, but you have to base the voting on whether his career as it stands is deserving, and it is not. And if you don't think Jim Rice could say he was the best hitter in baseball at the end of 1979 you weren't paying attention. He had 3 years (1977-79) where he was in the top 6 in BA, HR, and RBI, (usually in the top 3) and almost won the triple crown in 1978. Just for the sake of fun, let's compare Rice's 3 years with Mattingly's, in terms of how dominating they were at the plate:
AVG HR RBI
Mattinlgy 84 1st 15th? 5th
85 3rd 4th 1st
86 2nd 6th 3rd
Rice 77 6th 1st 3rd
78 3rd 1st 1st
79 4th 2nd 2nd
Plus Rice went on to have a pretty distinguished career after those 3 years of dominance at the plate, including leading the league in HR and RBI in 1983.
Jim Rice stats
So if Rice is on the fence, how can Mattingly even be considered based on "dominance"?
Lee
<< <i>Kinda sad hearing people argue against Donnie Baseball out of jealousy for the Yankee dynasty. The Yanks aren't the only team in baseball...they just happen to be the team that's won a fourth of the World Series that've ever been played.
A Yankees captain says much more than being the Devil Rays captain.
Don't worry, Mariners fans, we'll vote in Jay Buhner when he comes around... >>
How many of those Yankee World Series rings is Donnie Baseball wearing?
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