What is the law on defacing money?

ChangeIsGood · May 9, 2005 1:39AM

I was always told it was against the law to deface money. Now I take it was meant to be paper bills. Is there any law against melting or altering coins. I don't mean trying to make a 8 into a 3. More along the lines of jewelry and such. Would be greatful for any help.

LucyBop · May 9, 2005 1:40AM

i've always wondered this as well, alot of the times when i pay with a $20, the cashier marks it with a marker. i always thought that was defacing currency.

mrpaseo · May 9, 2005 1:43AM

I know this does not answer your question but I know that as long as the currency is spendable you can deface currency all you want. So if you decide to write on a bill, you know something like, "Killrow was here" or "www.wheresgeorge.com" then you would be alright, but if you wanted to paint one side of all your bills with say red paint...then thats a nono.

As for coins, I'm not sure.

Ray

PS. Good question.
Ray

mrpaseo · May 9, 2005 1:44AM

<< <i>i've always wondered this as well, alot of the times when i pay with a $20, the cashier marks it with a marker. i always thought that was defacing currency. >>

When the cashier marks on your money she is using a market that interacts with the special ink used to make currency. The way it reacts to it determines if it is counterfeit or not.

Ray

ChangeIsGood · May 9, 2005 1:53AM

I think we have all, at some time in our lives, have drawn a mustache on George or jotted down a phone number on a bill.
Just curious about pounding a silver half into a ring, or, like back when silver was sky high and people dumped all the old coins to be melted. I never read anything from the government stating it was against the law. I would just hate to make something out of an old coin and have the Feds come and pester me about it.

Actually, I feel if I own the money, I can do what I want with it.

Thanks for all the input.
Dan

RalphP13 · May 9, 2005 1:57AM

Defacement of currency is a violation of Title 18, Section 333 of the United States Code. Under this provision, currency defacement is generally defined as follows: Whoever mutilates, cuts, disfigures, perforates, unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, Federal Reserve Bank, or Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such item(s) unfit to be reissued, shall be fined not more than $100 or imprisoned not more than six months, or both. Defacement of currency in such a way that it is made unfit for circulation comes under the jurisdiction of the United States Secret Service.

From the Bureau of Engraving and Printing
Link

Whoops!

Ralph

ss350camaro · May 9, 2005 2:02AM

<< <i>Defacement of currency is a violation of Title 18, Section 333 of the United States Code. Under this provision, currency defacement is generally defined as follows: Whoever mutilates, cuts, disfigures, perforates, unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, Federal Reserve Bank, or Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such item(s) unfit to be reissued, shall be fined not more than $100 or imprisoned not more than six months, or both. Defacement of currency in such a way that it is made unfit for circulation comes under the jurisdiction of the United States Secret Service.

From the Bureau of Engraving and Printing
Link

Whoops!

Ralph >>

Ralph,

Please forward all of your illegal Hobo Nickel carvings to me at once for proper disposal

RalphP13 · May 9, 2005 2:05AM

Nickels ...what nickels.

Ralph

flaminio · May 9, 2005 2:05AM

The intent of the law is usually interpreted that you can deface money all you want, as long as you don't try to defraud someone. So, elongated pennies, "Where's George" stamps, and Bert Hickman's evil genius experiments are all OK, because no one is claiming that the items produced are anything but what they are. You can take a half dollar, put it in a lathe, and ground it down to dollar size and still be OK. But if you try to pass it off as a dollar, you've committed a crime.

Smittys · May 9, 2005 2:06AM

Nothing is done unless you advertise on currency or intend to decive by changing date denom etc.

ChangeIsGood · May 9, 2005 2:11AM

Just found this on line. Thought the United Kingdom one was funny.

"United States (YES): The United States Codes under Title 18, Chapter 17, and Section 331, "prohibits the mutilation, diminution and falsification of United States coinage." However, it has been the opinion of some individual officers at the Treasury Department, though without any indication of approval, the foregoing statute does not prohibit the mutiliation of coins if done without fraudulent intent or if the mutilated coins are not used fraudulently.

United Kingdom (YES): It is also legal to elongate coins in the UK for the same reasons at it is legal in the US. A common misconception is that it is illegal to elongate the coin because it defaces the image of the queen, however, we have been assured by a collector in the UK that it is not against the law to flatten the Queen's head... so long as it is on a penny. "

I guess the kids in England also lay pennys on the railroad tracks.

Thanks

RalphP13 · May 9, 2005 2:26AM

Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened — Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. Link

As mentioned above, there has to be fraudulent intent.

I actually looked in to this before carving.
Ralph

Longacre · May 9, 2005 2:32AM

I am not sure on the state of the law, but this does remind me of a funny story. When I was a freshman or sophmore in college, I went with my college friend to Times Square in search of a "fake ID". It was well after midnight when we were walking around. This was before Guiliani ruined the City by cleaning up Times Square and taking away a lot of its character (now we have the Disney Store there...but I digress). We were approached by some guy who offered to arrange for our fake IDs, but first he had to check our money to make sure it wan't marked or counterfeit. Like fools my friends and I all gave him our bills from our wallets so he could go into the store and get them checked. He even pointed out that writing on some of the bills we gave to him showed that they were "marked". Like a nieve fool, I actually said, "wow, I never thought that was what "marked" meant". Anyway, to make a long story short, we waited outside the store in Times Square for almost an hour, waiting for the guy to come with our IDs, or otherwise to inform us if our money was good or not. He never returned so I assume our money was quite good. Just thought I'd share.

sellsatan · May 9, 2005 3:19AM

I pounded an ugly Frankie into submission last week. It's a ring now. Oh yeah, I did it - and I'll do it again too...

cladking · May 9, 2005 3:37AM

It is not only illegal to mutilate or deface coins with the intent to decieve it is
also illegal to deface money and then spend it. This is rarely enforced but
this is because it's rarely much of a problem. If you were to start writing on
large numbers of bills or damaging coins and spending them there would be
a knock on your door eventually.

Melting or completely destroying coins is not illegal but sometimes such laws
are passed to protect specific coins. It's possible that one has been overlooked
so that it's technically illegal but it would not be enforced. The Coinage Act of
1965 addressed this issue and superceded many older laws.

joefro · May 9, 2005 4:25AM

I would have to say its definitely not illegal to alter/deface coinage as long as you dont try to sell it or anything. I mean, look at all of those souveneir machines all over the country that you can put pennies into and it flattens them out and puts some image on them. There is a company somewhere that makes its money by producing these machines with the sole purpose of destroying company. Surely the feds wouldn't let something like that slide. I just wonder if anyone has ever thrown a 72 DD or something like that into the grinder!

As a side note, my friend and I also used to smash coins on the RR tracks by our house. If you line all the pennies side by side they will get smashed into a chain.

joefro · May 9, 2005 4:26AM

Doh! Should have read *with the sole purpose of destroying currency.

lathmach · May 9, 2005 7:06AM

I make my own business cards on Cent coins.
I put my name, business name, telephone number, and business address on Lincoln cents in the fields, left and right of the bust of Lincoln, in characters, normally .025" high.
On the reverse of some I have put a 5 pointed star with a ring around it, and inside the ring between the star points the motto, "our-word-is-our-bond".
I've made thousands of these and passed them out.
I've also engraved cent coins with a picture of the Mackinaw Bridge, the Ludington Michigan Lighthouse, Christian Cross and pastor's names, birth notices, and death notices, as well as wedding anniversaries. (One was for my brother's 56th)
The law, as written, requires an alteration or defacement to be "fraudulent".
There is nothing fraudulent about love tokens, hobo nickels, or my "business cards". I ain't trying to cheat anybody.
Sometimes I'll spend a "business card". Who the heck gives a dang about a penny. Most people won't pick one up off the ground.

Ray

PerryHall · May 9, 2005 8:11AM

<< <i>I make my own business cards on Cent coins.
I put my name, business name, telephone number, and business address on Lincoln cents in the fields, left and right of the bust of Lincoln, in characters, normally .025" high.
On the reverse of some I have put a 5 pointed star with a ring around it, and inside the ring between the star points the motto, "our-word-is-our-bond".
I've made thousands of these and passed them out.
I've also engraved cent coins with a picture of the Mackinaw Bridge, the Ludington Michigan Lighthouse, Christian Cross and pastor's names, birth notices, and death notices, as well as wedding anniversaries. (One was for my brother's 56th)
The law, as written, requires an alteration or defacement to be "fraudulent".
There is nothing fraudulent about love tokens, hobo nickels, or my "business cards". I ain't trying to cheat anybody.
Sometimes I'll spend a "business card". Who the heck gives a dang about a penny. Most people won't pick one up off the ground.

Ray >>

That is totally cool! How do you engrave your cents?

ziggy29 · May 9, 2005 8:17AM

Bottom line, IMO, is that if it's your money and you're not out to defraud anyone, there's really no harm, no foul. If you want to take the chance that you deface money so much that no one will accept it, well, that's your choice.

carl · May 9, 2005 9:37AM

When I was in school just about everyone tried a penny in H2SO4. That should have been lower case 2 and 4 you know. The results were a blue colored liquid HOH+SO3+Cu ions. Then evaporated the remains, you ended up with CuSO4 crystals. If carefully filtered, the were clear blue crystals. I've still got mine after 40 or 50 years. Wonder if there is a way to change them back into pennies.

Conder101 · May 10, 2005 12:13PM

Mutilating coins is only illegal if done with the intent to defraud. Mutilating currency is illegal if it is rendered unfit to be reissued. In the laws referenced by RalphP13 the term currency does NOT include coinage.

mcmxi · May 10, 2005 12:35PM

BTW the bill markew tellers use disappears after a little while

lathmach · May 10, 2005 12:41PM

That is totally cool! How do you engrave your cents? PerryHall

I own a machine shop.
I engrave the cents on a HAAS VF4 CNC Vertical Machining Center, using a solid carbide engraving tool.
I have an engraving program I use for the lettering.
For the pictures, I use G-Code programming. I just do a lot of partial arcing and so forth. Sometimes I spend quite a bit of time with a pocket calculator trigging out the shape.

Ray

What is the law on defacing money?

Comments

Leave a Comment