PCGS PR - Micro O's

Wolf359 · April 26, 2005 2:57AM

It's out

mgoodm3 · April 26, 2005 3:01AM

Good detective work.

itsnotjustme · April 26, 2005 3:05AM

So who first noticed this?

LeeG · April 26, 2005 3:15AM

Very Interesting. Someone's a "Master Craftsman"?

F117ASR · April 26, 2005 3:22AM

Wow! Does PCGS reimburse you according to their price guide?

wam98 · April 26, 2005 3:43AM

Wow, that's something. If I had one of these dates with the micro o, I wouldn't part with it. Too interesting.

19Lyds · April 26, 2005 5:54AM

<< <i>Wow! Does PCGS reimburse you according to their price guide? >>

"PCGS will reimburse the owner for the current market value of the coin(s) under the terms of the PCGS Grading Guarantee."

coinkat · April 26, 2005 9:14AM

I seriously doubt that this short blurb will be the final word on this. Stay tuned...

kranky · April 26, 2005 9:33AM

Here's an excellent example of the type of contribution that a TPG can make to the hobby. While it's not out of the question that a student of the series could have determined the coins were fakes, no one had done so in a century. They were in the position to examine many of these at one time, and it was unlikely any single numismatist would have the same opportunity. PCGS did the research and published it even though it will cost them potentially nearly a hundred buybacks. There's nothing in this for PCGS other than expense. Kudos.

Rampage · April 26, 2005 9:51AM

So, are they saying that this variety does not exist? What about the micro S coins. I have three micro O 1899 coins. I think they are cool.

greghansen · April 26, 2005 9:52AM

I've got one that they graded VF30. Leave it to me to cherrypick a friggin counterfeit!!!!!

Since no more will be slabbed, I'm wondering if I might not be better off keeping it as it is as a curiosity? What do you think. I didn't image the coin after it came back from PCGS, but here is the image before I sent it in. Based on their price guides, looks like they might pay me about $1,500 if I elected to turn it in. I dunno.

greghansen · April 26, 2005 10:12AM

Jeez, I sold an 1902-micro O in Jan. that was PCGS slabbed. Now I feel terrible about it. I have noticed a lot of the 1900 & 1902 micro O's getting auctioned lately, some by fellow board members. I just hope no one has been moving them or acting on inside information knowing about the PCGS authenticity inquiry. From reading the article it sounds like they were working on it for a while. I just hope no one has been selling them knowing they would get more from an auction setting than they would by turning it in under the PCGS guarantee.

coinkat · April 26, 2005 10:18AM

The 1899-o micros are okay... I think there are now 5 or 6 different ones... VAMS4,5 and 6 and there is a VAM31 and some others. The 1903-s is okay as well. I am not completely satisfied that the 1896-o, 1900-o and 1902-o are counterfeit. more later

Iwog · April 26, 2005 10:32AM

Even if you can somehow explain away the same reverse die being used over 6 or more years, there is absolutely NO chance that the mint issued a large number of coins with 94% silver content. This is the clincher as far as I'm concerned.

Wolf359 · April 26, 2005 10:39AM

My understanding was the spectrographic testing was inconclusive, as both the Micro O and control coin were above Mint tolerance.

coinkat · April 26, 2005 10:55AM

Iwog:

A large number of these were not issued because by now more would have been located and this whole question would have been resolved years ago and that is part of the problem with the counterfeit argument. If someone was going to go to the trouble to counterfeit these, I serious doubt that a micro o reverse would have been selected as a Hub in the first place. The metal testing really proves nothing substantial but just adds to the mystery.

edited to add: there is also a problem with the sample... if you are going to hang your hat on the testing, one should have a representative sample of many of these coins and not just one.

TheRaven · April 26, 2005 12:45PM

How do we know exactly how many of these coins they tested to see what the metalurgy told them.....

What does NGC has to say about these coins? or don't they recognize them?

DMWJR · April 26, 2005 1:30PM

I just took a look at my 1900-O, and I wish it was in a little better condition. It's a VG. The indentation next to the O is there, but the field is pretty beat up between the wing and wreath for me to use that as an identifier. I typically don't buy VG coins, but I remember when I bought this one because I was shocked to see the micro O on it. I disregarded the condition once I saw that.

My three 99-O's are AU58-MS63, and they look just fine like the article said. Lying here next to the 00-O, it just looks out of place -- more than circulation. I can't put my finger on it exactly.

I have some more micro's I'll need to check.

Maybe I can throw up a couple of pics later

greghansen · April 26, 2005 8:40PM

I guess the people, like myself, who cherrypicked these, and then had them slabbed, won't get hurt too bad by this finding because of the Grading Guarantee. The people who bought slabbed coins also shouldn't get hurt too bad under the Grade Guarantee. If they paid up for the coin, PCGS might not reimburse 100%, but hopefully sellers may make up any difference. The people who are REALLY going to get hurt are the ones who paid a premium for RAW micro-O coins, thinking they were going to be able to get them certified as a variety. There are a couple of recent EBAY auctions where these coins went for a pretty good premium raw, and unless the seller steps up to make things right, the new owner is looking at pretty much a 100% loss. Here are the 2 auctions I turned up:

Recent EBAY auction for 1896-O micro O raw coin

Recent EBAY auction for 1902-O micro O raw coin

jdsinva · April 26, 2005 9:40PM

The only one I have is the 1896-O that I cherried off of eBay for $9.99 plus S&H a few years back. No big deal for me but at some of the prices I've seen some of these coins realize recently, there might be a few unhappy campers out there until the smoke clears.

skerke · April 27, 2005 12:10AM

Anybody have a pic of a mocro O compared to a non-micro O. I have the bowers Morgan book and a few of these coins (I know are original from an old collection) but I've been staring at them trying to determine if they are micro O or not.

greghansen · April 27, 2005 12:25AM

Here they are, side by side, and same sized. Feel free to save as a reference.....I did.

coinkat · April 27, 2005 12:59AM

While what PCGS has revealed is compelling, is there a way to do a Freedom of Information Act request to get further information as to what the Mint, Secret Service or FBI knows about this?

tradedollarnut · April 27, 2005 2:16AM

Why would a contemporary counterfeiter go to the trouble of creating three obverse dies with different dates? That just doesn't make sense to me....

Wolf359 · April 27, 2005 2:19AM

Why would a contemporary counterfeiter go to the trouble of creating three obverse dies with different dates? That just doesn't make sense to me....

That's the best post I've ever seen from you. EXACTLY. However, I agree they are counterfeits by strongest weight of the evidence.

One obverse die has been located. Two are still unknown.

DorkGirl · April 27, 2005 2:28AM

<< <i>One obverse die has been located. Two are still unknown. >>

Jack, you sound like you know quite a bit of this story, can you give us some more? This is getting to be like those old radio programs...."only the shadow knows"

PhillyJoe · April 27, 2005 2:35AM

<< <i>While what PCGS has revealed is compelling, is there a way to do a Freedom of Information Act request to get further information as to what the Mint, Secret Service or FBI knows about this? >>

Good luck dealing with the secret service or FBI.

The Mint's records are, and always have been, available and open to the public. The Mint correspondence is broken into two groups; incoming and outgoing. If someone suspected their coin was not genuine their letter would be in the incoming. Any subsequent follow-up would be in out-going as well as correspondence between the Mints: Washington, Phila, and N.O.
The task here is reviewing perhaps fifty years of records hoping that there is something there.

Perhaps we should hire a independent U.S. Mint researcher.

Joe
Independent U.S. Mint Researcher
The United States Mint at Philadelphia
archives.gov/research room/independent researchers listing

Wolf359 · April 27, 2005 2:44AM

Hi Becky,

It was reported in the VAM-E newsletter a few months ago.

DennisH · April 27, 2005 8:09AM

I'm of the VERY strong opinion that PCGS' decision to stop grading these coins will increase the demand, desireability and value of the 92 coins that are already in holders. I certainly intend to hang on to the ones I own. In addiiton, I would invite anyone interested in selling their PCGS-graded 1896, 1900 and 1902 Micro-Os to contact me. I'm confident I can find a home for them.

TonedPeaceNut · April 27, 2005 8:25AM

Hey Dennis -- what if there were 9200 of these coins, would you still see a demand for them?

And what if the price doubles, do you think PCGS would still buy them back at that level? Or is your offer just for the fun of the novelty factor of having a PCGS slabbed counterfeit?

TPN

DennisH · April 27, 2005 9:02AM

TPN:

Yes I would, but of course not nearly to the degree that 92 does. What PCGS will/would/might/could pay is as much my guess as it is yours. So is how long they will be willing to buy them back. But if you find out, please let me know because I'd be curious to hear.

My offer is based on the fact that I know people (plural) who want them -- and have made that decision since PCGS made its announcent.

coinkat · April 27, 2005 9:11AM

There is something about all of this that is just not appreciated by what I would call mainstream collectors... the 1896-o, 1900-o and 1902-o micro o varieties are rare and there are very few of these out there. Every decent reference book in connection with Morgan Dollars has made reference to them and owning one is different than owning an 1889-cc or an 1893-s.

It would seem that if these were all counterfeits, more would have been made and more would have survived and this issue would have been addressed earlier and resolved.

PCGS PR - Micro O's

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