PayPal Stole My Money!

techeff · April 14, 2005 12:39PM

So, I sell a coin on Ebay and a couple days later the buyer pays me via PayPal. The transaction status shows "Completed," so I figure all is good. A couple days later I ship the coin out. The very next day PayPal withdraws the funds from my account and tells me the buyer paid me with unauthorized funds and my transaction is on "Hold."

Part two of the story: The buyer didn't pay for the insurance, just shipping. I've had a few buyers in the past not pay for insurance on my coins before even though they won an expensive coin. Well, I always just paid for the insurance myself, except for this time when I decided enough is enough.

So now PayPal is asking me for a tracking number even after I told them once already that the buyer didn't pay for insurance, tracking, etc.

So much for their protection policy!

Russ · April 14, 2005 12:43PM

<< Part two of the story: The buyer didn't pay for the insurance, just shipping. >>

Insurance is not a buyer option in my listings. Everything gets shipped insured. Frankly, I've never understood why a seller would let the buyer decide that. Insurance protects the seller, not the buyer.

Russ, NCNE

techeff · April 14, 2005 12:46PM

I've never understood why a seller would let the buyer decide that. Insurance protects the seller, not the buyer.

I just figured the buyer was assuming all of the risk. Expensive lesson for me!

Russ · April 14, 2005 12:49PM

<< I just figured the buyer was assuming all of the risk. >>

If they make a decision to refuse insurance, it should be that way. Unfortunately, when it comes down to it PayPal and credit card companies pretty much automatically side with the buyer and place the onus on the seller for delivery of the package.

Russ, NCNE

K6AZ · April 14, 2005 12:52PM

<< So now PayPal is asking me for a tracking number even after I told them once already that the buyer didn't pay for insurance, tracking, etc. >>

You're SOL. When taking PayPal, you must get tracking (UPS, FedEx, USPS delivery confirmation) on items up to $250. On items over $250, you need proof of delivery with a signature. Don't have it, you're out the money, even if you paid for full insurance.

techeff · April 14, 2005 12:57PM

Unfortunately, when it comes down to it PayPal and credit card companies pretty much automatically side with the buyer and place the onus on the seller for delivery of the package.

In this case, I held up my end of the deal. It's the buyer that did something illegal.

K6AZ · April 14, 2005 1:00PM

Doesn't matter to PayPal. If you do not have tracking info that can be viewed online, you lose, period. This is why I have have prepared to get a merchant account to take cards directly, I've had enough of their nonsense.

ConstellatioCollector · April 14, 2005 1:02PM

On expensive coins I always state that insurance is required! On cheap coins I state that insurance optional!

ss350camaro · April 14, 2005 1:02PM

I had that happen to me once. It turned out that the buyer hadn't updated his credit card (expiration date).

Once he went in and corrected the problem PayPal released the funds back into my account.

Have you had any contact with the buyer since this happened ? What's his side of the story ?

techeff · April 14, 2005 1:05PM

Have you had any contact with the buyer since this happened ? What's his side of the story ?

I've sent him several emails, but no response. He even just won another one of my coins just the other day. Fool me once...

ziggy29 · April 14, 2005 1:07PM

This sucks. Between this and fake money orders and such, do sellers have to start holding ALL forms of payment for a week?

ss350camaro · April 14, 2005 1:08PM

Did you use PayPal to pay for and create a USPS shipping label ?

Boom · April 14, 2005 3:16PM

I've noticed some sellers switching to BidPay. Ebay, PayPal and the tpgs are who make the profit, not us.

I have always NOT cut corners when it comes to S/H. Like Russ said, I ALWAYS include insurance in S/H.

Like k6az says, if you're going by PayPal's rules you HAVE to have a tracking # and SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION.

Even with this so-called protection in place, I STILL go insured with Sig Conf. Hell, ss350 Camaro and k6az both helped me download the free Click-N-Ship Program off the USPS Website.

Man, sorry to hear this happened to you, Keith!

Dave99B · April 14, 2005 3:26PM

What a drag, hope it gets worked out. I always require insurance myself, unless the item is under $25 or $30.

BTW, I just read that over 40% of eBay auctions are paid via PayPal.....man, what a cash cow.

Dave

mrearlygold · April 14, 2005 3:34PM

<< Doesn't matter to PayPal. If you do not have tracking info that can be viewed online, you lose, period. This is why I have have prepared to get a merchant account to take cards directly, I've had enough of their nonsense. >>

I have a merchant account with Cardservices International which is a major processor. Believe me paypal is EASY on sellers in comparison.

I absolutely will not under any circumstance accept a credit card order or even deposit on an order from an un-established customer for these reasons.

Tom

markglicker · April 14, 2005 4:03PM

Hope that you didn't take too big of a hit.

GraysonGuy · April 14, 2005 9:42PM

I've used Paypal for a long time as a buyer and never considered the hell they put sellers through until I happened upon this website:

www.paypalsucks.com

Some interesting reading...

BAJJERFAN · April 14, 2005 9:52PM

When you sell an item to someone that must be shipped or mailed and you have received payment ; you still have temporary or custodial ownership of someone else's property and as such YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for its safekeeping. I almost always provide some sort of insurance even if the buyer does not request or pay for it UNLESS I am willing to eat the cost if something goes amiss. In the case presented insurance is irrelevant from the standpoint of tracking since only USPS personnel can track from an insurance tracking number.

Barry · April 14, 2005 9:52PM

<< Doesn't matter to PayPal. If you do not have tracking info that can be viewed online, you lose, period. This is why I have have prepared to get a merchant account to take cards directly, I've had enough of their nonsense. >>

I have a merchant account (for my real job). Fortunately, we don't deal with scammers, and the card is swiped through a terminal and we get signatures on 99% of transactions. However, you will be up against the same thing with a merchant account. Any time a buyer questions a transaction, the funds are put on hold until the CC company investigates and proves to their satisfaction you held up your end.

BAJJERFAN · April 14, 2005 10:02PM

Two other points.
Is it possible to have the postal service put a hold on a delivery until good funds are received or even return the item to a seller without delivery?
Secondly you might have a case for fraud if the buyer knowingly paid with UNAUTHORIZED funds.
Let us know how it goes.

bushmaster8 · April 14, 2005 11:50PM

All the more reason to dump PAYPUD... they suck!

flaminio · April 15, 2005 12:10AM

I'll play devil's advocate here and side with PayPal in this case. techeff didn't play by the rules -- he didn't get a tracking number for the package. The funds used to pay for the item were "unauthorized" -- in short, stolen. Even in real life you can't sell an item to someone with a fraudulent credit card or stolen money.

PayPal is just the middleman here. techeff is the "victim", but the real criminal is the buyer. You should have plenty of information on the guy. I'd be calling his local police department and get them to investigate it.

mercurydimeguy · April 15, 2005 12:44AM

<< Part two of the story: The buyer didn't pay for the insurance, just shipping. >>

Insurance is not a buyer option in my listings. Everything gets shipped insured. Frankly, I've never understood why a seller would let the buyer decide that. Insurance protects the seller, not the buyer.

Russ, NCNE >>

Russ, agreed! I don't even make it optional. I put in a price for S/H/I and in the insurance box just say that it's included in the S/H amount. Some people say (through "contact seller") that they'd bid more for the coin if the S/H/I is less. The way I look at it is if they're willing to gamble several 100's of dollars over 3-10 of insurance, that is a BIG red flag. I tell them that I appreciate they're input, acknowledge that they have a valid comment (not to be biased or tick them off that my opinion is right) and that they can simply bid less -- typically they don't even bid

I wonder why

aficionado · April 15, 2005 9:32AM

Even without Insurance you can still get the tracking option, Delivery Comfirmation.

Russ · April 15, 2005 9:37AM

<< Even without Insurance you can still get the tracking option, Delivery Comfirmation. >>

Delivery confirmation is useless for fighting a chargeback claim. It has to be signature confirmation.

Russ, NCNE

Boom · April 15, 2005 9:43AM

Read the PayPal Protection Plan. It's laid out in Black and White just exactly what it takes to qualify as a seller for their Protection Plan and one of the requirements is that you send using Signature Confirmation.

Delivery Confirmation only proves one thing....that it was delivered. Hell, I've had carriers "deliver" my packages all over the neighborhood. Last year's package from the US Mint went to the correct address only in a different City all together, about 100 miles from here and everything was in order, address wise and zip code as well. You have to obtain a Signature.!!

BigD5 · April 15, 2005 9:48AM

Russ I've had two paypal "situations" where Del. confirmation was satisfactory in settling my case against claims.

Paypal asked for proof of delivery, I provided the DC #, and that was that.

Blue ticket insurance items shipped over $100 are supposed to require a signature to be delivered. These are proof enough against a claim, but they can't be tracked online. You have to physically go to the PO and request a copy of the signature. Paypal will hold your funds until you do so.

I've had different feedback on different claim processes with Paypal. It seems they require different "proofs" for different items. I'm not sure if it depends on the track record of the seller or buyer, or what.

One other side note, I started shipping green ticket insured items (under $50) w/delivery confirmation over a year ago, and haven't had ONE of those packages go "missing" since that time. It's amazing at how many of those "disappeared", or were never delivered when they didn't have tracking.

310coins · April 15, 2005 11:59AM

I had the same thing happen to me with Paypal. Auction went fine and buyer paid with Paypal and then Paypal reversed the funds. I worked with Paypal for a few days until they said they would not offer protection. I then went after the buyer. First I filed a mail fraud report with the USPS. Dummy had the coin shipped to his PO Box only he could have received the coin. I guess I was the third person he had cheated because after I sent a non-paying buyer alert they stopped his account. Once I emailed him the mail fraud report he sent me a certified check by UPS the next day. I did stop the fraud report after payment.

Do you guys think that is overkill?

jimtre · April 15, 2005 1:43PM

Something I have always had a problem with!

If I order something from you, I pay for it and I expect to get it. If I don't you have not upheld your part of the transaction and I feel you MUST nake me whole. IE: either send me the product or send me my money back.

What is so hard to understand about that? Why do you ask the buyer if he wants insurance when it is your responability to provide the buyer with what he paid for?

Jim

By the way, I always use Delivery confirmation. I do deliver mail for the Post Office and I think it is the best thing since sliced bread. Despite what you might say about it you have that extra protection (for better words). It is place right under accountables for delivery assurance.

In my opinion it is the best .45 you will ever spend.

PayPal Stole My Money!

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