Could this be a proof???? 1909 VDB Lincoln Experts Needed!
TonedPeaceNut
Posts: 1,000 ✭
Ever time I look at this coin, I think proof. I'm no Lincoln expert so I have no idea what to look for. These are the best pics I've taken so far and with the kind of toning this coin has I just envision it sitting in that Mint issue tissue paper turning it this nice blue color. I've seen other proofs with that blue, I actually have a 1911 proof with blue toning. The strike just seems too nice for a business strike and the surfaces seem to have that grainy matte look to them.
What do you think? Thanks for the help!
TPN
What do you think? Thanks for the help!
TPN
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Whats the grade and holder?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
As others here have said, the rims do not have the true squared look of a proof VDB and the strike does not look as sharp as it should be for a proof. Here are the three key diagnostics that a true 1909 VDB Matte Proof Lincoln cent MUST have. If you can see ALL three on your coin with a 10x glass, then submit to PCGS, NGC or ANACS for grading.
1. On the obverse, Die polish shows on front of and on top of nose.
2. On the obverse, Die scratch from the back of Lincoln's coat going into the field below the right leg of the "R" of LIBERTY.
3. On the reverse, Die chip to the right of "M" in UNUM.
The first two diagnostics also appear on some 1909 non VDB Matte proof cents, but the reverse diagnostic is unique to the genuine 1909VDB Matte Proof Lincoln. Only 420 of these coins were issued and I am proud to own one of them. Good luck.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Based on the pic, ,I agree. While these proofs can be a bit dificult to distinguish from business strikes, when you actually see one, it is amazing how much detail there is, how sharp that detail is, and how square the edge is.
Dennis
PS not sure if the toning is NT
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The pic is a little deceiving. The strike is nice and the rims are more square as are the letters/numbers. I compared it to my 1911 proof and while it wasn't as strong as the 1911, it was still much stronger than the business strikes I compared it to.
As for the grade and color -- its in a NGC MS64BN holder and I'm pretty sure its NT. Cant be positive, but I've seen other Lincolns with similar color in slabs and the color doesn't look as though it sits on the coin, but rather is bonded to the surface. It isn't a jeweluster lincoln. I think it resided in an album/folder and picked up the reverse color from contact with the paper backing, leaving the obverse less toned.
Thanks for the help.
TPN
Those diagnostics are NOT seen on business strikes. Only on Matte Proofs. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>The first two diagnostics also appear on some 1909 non VDB Matte proof cents >>
Okay, I get it now. I looked at this coin under a strong loop and I see the first two diagnostics. Its hard to make out the reverse because of the toning, it screws with the light reflecting off the coin, so its hard to get a good field of depth to spot a small die chip.
Steve -- can you do some close up picks of the diagnostics show I can compare them?
I know everyone here says its not a proof, but until I can compare the diagnostic pics to the coin in hand, I can still dream!!!!
TPN
For what it's worth, many years ago, as YN, I very distictly remember reading that this did indeed occur.
I myself owned then an '09 VDB with a very peculiar 'rabbit fur' toning pattern. Having no idea what matte meant, I did a little research to see if that's what I had. What I remember learning is that no, wierd toning and matte proof are not the same, but that apparently the mint did use proof dies to make B.S.s before retirng them altogether. The source was probably Coins or Coinage magazine, since that was all I read in those days - but still, take this with a grain of salt.
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Apparently you were on this before in big greek's, January 23rd, 2005 post. Do a search on Matte Proof Lincolns and you will get a bunch of threads. There are pictures showing the key cresent die chip on the reverse.
Obviously, NGC doesn't think your coin is a proof. Unless you remove it from the slab and visually check it out I don't know how you could say whether or not it is a proof. If it is a proof you have a $2k+ coin. As a business strike it is probably not worth more than $30. The odds are very much against you but if you want to gamble I'd go for it. JMHO.
As I said, I have not read that this diagnostic appears on business strikes. I will quote from the ANA certification service in 1982 where Leonard Albreight says "The diagnostics described here (refering to Lincoln cent Matte proofs for the years 1909-1916)are drawn from ANA Certification Service files of known dies and die states. Occasionally, business strikes can be mistaken for Matte Proof pieces, but, as far as our records show, the diagnostics discussed in this article have appeared only on proof coins".
Good luck.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry