Seriously, why do the guys over on the SGC board hate PSA so much?

bobbybakeriv · March 18, 2005 2:23PM

I admit that I prefer PSA over SGC. However, I never feel the need to criticize SGC (or any other grading company for that matter) on this board. Actually, I think SGC does a good job for the most part. Still, every time I visit their board (which is admittedly infrequent), I am amazed at how many posters over there take each and every opportunity possible to bash PSA. I certainly don't see the reverse over here to the same extent. Are those guys really that a) arrogant b) envious, c) bitter, or d)" in the right" (for a reason I am unaware)? I mean, if SGC is so much better, why do their cards command less money (on the whole)? Of course, I am still new to card grading, so there may be something I am missing here. Any insight will be appreciated. Thanks, Bobby

Lodi · March 18, 2005 2:38PM

C-B-A in that order. PSA=Pepsi......SGC=RC Cola......Beckett=New Coke.....GAI=Diet Pepsi......PRO=

jrdolan · March 18, 2005 2:38PM

I haven't been over to SGC in a dog's age, but from what I remember some of them were banned from CU and others abandoned PSA grading for SGC ... or both. Some bitterness on the part of some, to be sure.

I actually think Sportcard Guaranty Co. is a pretty good and accurate grading service (though I feel they are too lax on centering). And their holder is solid and classy. I have on my desk at this moment a '48 Bowman Rizzuto in an SGC 84 holder that I've been planning to move into PSA 7 slab for my HOF Rookies set. It looks so darn good where it is, I've been procrastinating for weeks now.

When it comes down to it, though, I love my registry sets and I need my cards to be liquid. I do much better with PSA when it's time to sell. If we were talking about pre-war it might be different, but I am 1948 and up.

bobbybakeriv · March 18, 2005 3:06PM

Very interesting JR. Lodi, your response is about as efficient as it gets. Thanks!

bobsbbcards · March 18, 2005 10:23PM

<< C-B-A in that order. PSA=Pepsi......SGC=RC Cola......Beckett=New Coke.....GAI=Diet Pepsi......PRO=

>>

No way PRO = Beer. Must be filled with pi$$.

Southerncards · March 18, 2005 10:36PM

<< I mean, if SGC is so much better, why do their cards command less money (on the whole)? >>

The answer to that is 2 fold. First, SGC cards do command just as good prices in some cases. There are documented auctions where an SGC card beat a PSA card head to head. The reverse is also true. You can find any auction and info detail to support each person's view of which card is worth more.

Secondly, in general, SGC collectors arent concerned with the "money that a card commands". They are more concerned with an accurate grade, a fair price and good customer service........these are all things that SGC collectors dont feel exist on this side of the world.

Pinkcatfish · March 18, 2005 10:46PM

A few years ago I had a mix of PSA and SGC cards but when PSA set the standard with the Registry and SGC
just sat there I began focusing on PSA cards. Nothing wrong at all with SGC graded cards but they blew
an opportunity to claim a larger % of the graded card market. Just my 2 cents.

J

DS1991Topps · March 19, 2005 1:51AM

Bobby,

Good Point! You are correct... Today was my first day on their (SGC) board and WOW... A lot of unhappy PSA customers...

Don't hold me to this... but the way I see it... I am trying to build a complete graded set of the "1991 TOPPS Desert Shield Baseball Card" with the Gold Seal in the top right corner.

We see this as an investment and that is why we went with PSA and not any of the other companies... I am pretty new at this graded thing, but from what we have found out... PSA cards are worth more then any other graded cards out here.

Now when I say this... I am only talking about the "Graded 1991 TOPPS Desert Shield Baseball Cards Only". No other Graded Company can touch them.

Here is a really good example...

1991 TOPPS Desert Shield Barry Bonds PSA Card sold for $200.00

The same card graded SGC Card sold for $50.00 ... SGC Graded 1991 TOPPS Desert Shield Baseball Cards" just don't sell well.

My WANT List and NEW Web Site as of 20 March 2005

DS1991TOPPS@aol.com DS1991TOPPS@aol.com

Buccaneer · March 19, 2005 1:55AM

I strongly prefer early tobacco cards (esp. 19th century cards) graded at SGC then I would do PSA. They seem to have more experience and knowledge in that era.

Axtell · March 19, 2005 2:13AM

I am sure many factors are at work.

A combination of PSA being the big kid on the block, and all the other companies being the underdog; PSA being around longer than anyone and with any company, you are going to have some unhappy customers; and finally, I think a bit of it is envy.

If you are truly unhappy with a company, why would you continue to talk about them (either good or bad?)

WinPitcher · March 19, 2005 4:39AM

The 3 guys that regulary post over there have been banned from here. oh maybe it is now 4

steve

aro13 · March 19, 2005 5:48AM

~"There are documented auctions where an SGC card beat a PSA card head to head."~

Southerncards - Can you please PM me or post some information of these cases? I try and track head to head comparables in most auctions. Thanks.

Stone193 · March 19, 2005 6:06AM

<< why do the guys over on the SGC board hate PSA so much? >>

bobby
I would hope that "hate" was not used by these people - if so....anyone that would expend that kind of mental energy is in desperate need of a real life IMO.

These are pieces of cardboard...that sometimes are entombed in slabs of plastic.

But, since you have asked....I have seen major arguments ensue over cards and there seems to be some kind of anguish over every aspect of the graded market - so the over-riding issue is Money - I think people are affraid that their collections might go down the tubes. This can spawn some hefty emotional arguments that from time to time have come to personal verbal blows!

A person recently asked me what would I invest in? I told him long term capital gains mutual funds with a proven track record, highest rated bonds at hi yield, blue chips etc. and NOT sports cards/memorabilia.
I buy this stuff for fun and invest in what I just outlined.

Stone

Southerncards · March 19, 2005 12:51PM

<< ~"There are documented auctions where an SGC card beat a PSA card head to head."~

Southerncards - Can you please PM me or post some information of these cases? I try and track head to head comparables in most auctions. Thanks. >>

aro13,

I personally do not have a list. Its been more of a mental note thing for myself that I'd read about an auction that would say for example, something like..."This 52 Mantle graded SGC 84 sold for $10,000. Just last week a similarly graded PSA 7 sold for $8500."

I know some folks do keep detailed records of sales but I personally do not. I will tell you though that in my 19 years in the hobby, I've seen graded cards from various companies top each other over and over. Its a normal cycle. Anyone who tells you that their grading company outsells the others every time is out of touch with what's going on. My grader of choice is SGC, hands down. I would be a fool however to say that they outsell PSA, BGS, GAI every time.

calleocho · March 19, 2005 1:46PM

The love for PSA is nothing compared with the kind and gentle folks over at network54 show.

SGC is a fine company, nobody disputes that, however they are only as good as PSA when its all said and done.

If SGC graded as many cards as PSA you would be able to see more mistakes, maybe even more.

Southerncards · March 19, 2005 2:12PM

<< 
If SGC graded as many cards as PSA you would be able to see more mistakes, maybe even more. >>

That's provided that they made a mistake in the first place. Your statement can't be proven or disproven.

bobbybakeriv · March 19, 2005 2:46PM

Thanks for the opinions guys. I guess it is monetarily driven (like most everything), for the most part. I just can't fathom why many of SGC's supporters waste their time criticizing PSA on their board. I collect for the fun of it and like Stone so poignantly suggested, this likely makes a big difference in my overall outlook. Good luck collecting!

calleocho · March 19, 2005 3:15PM

southerncards,

No grading company is perfect.

Both PSA and SGC are among the best, but they will screw up from time to time.

IF sgc would have graded 8 mill + you can bet they would have more than few "problem" cards out there.

Please read this before you put any Grading Company on a pedestal

IJustLoveCards · March 19, 2005 9:40PM

"A person recently asked me what would I invest in? I told him long term capital gains mutual funds with a proven track record, highest rated bonds at hi yield, blue chips etc. and NOT sports cards/memorabilia."
Text

Past performance is no indication of future performance (mutual fund..Fidelity Magellan- has the track record, now lags the sector., and Merck (a blue chip) down from 60 to 30.

I am not advocating sports cards as an investment over stocks and bonds only pointing out that any investment can be proven to have flaws.

ezyshooter · March 20, 2005 3:55AM

Never had a problem with SGC cards. Newer or older for that matter. I do find SGC is a little more lienient on the centering, otherwise both companies are very comparable. Since SGC does not have qualifiers a card which is graded a 88(PSA8) might come back as a PSA 9 OC. I don't collect cards way off center anyways.35/65 is usually as far as i will go.

lostdart58 · March 20, 2005 5:39AM

If you are into set registries then the SGC's are pretty weak. Not enough cards have been graded especially commons for one to be able to acquire cards for most sets.
You would have to get them graded yourself.

For example the 1972 Topps Baseball

PSA registered sets current 78: PSA sets with more then 20% complete 25

SGC registered sets current 3 : SGC sets with more then 20% complete 0 ( The highest set is about 11% complete)

Southerncards · March 21, 2005 1:37AM

<< If you are into set registries then the SGC's are pretty weak. Not enough cards have been graded especially commons for one to be able to acquire cards for most sets.
You would have to get them graded yourself.

For example the 1972 Topps Baseball

PSA registered sets current 78: PSA sets with more then 20% complete 25

SGC registered sets current 3 : SGC sets with more then 20% complete 0 ( The highest set is about 11% complete) >>

As an owner of one of those 3 1972 Topps SGC sets, let me comment.....I think your comment about the SGC registry being weak is unfounded. For example, my collecting habits are a little different. I dont have tons of cash, nor the time to scout out the best mint examples of the various sets I'm building. I belong to a trading website where I make trades for vintage cards that appeal to me. If I feel the card worthy of encapsulation, I'll send it in. Most of my sets are in the 1-3% completion range because thats the way I enjoy building them. I could easily go to shows and nail down set after set but that's not as much fun for me. As far as grading them myself, that's also part of my enjoyment. I like finding a decent raw card and submitting it. Does all that make my registry entry weak?

Knuckles · March 21, 2005 2:26AM

Didn't SGC just start their set regestry along with their new website which still kind of sucks.. anyway you can't really compare them to PSA (set reg wise) if they've only been doing it for a few months or less..

wolfbear · March 21, 2005 2:50AM

Actually SGC's set registry has been up and running for a few years.
Dealers just can't make enough money selling SGC commons, so they mostly have them graded by PSA.

Southerncards - You've got the right idea. Collect the cards you enjoy in the way you enjoy doing so !

Southerncards · March 21, 2005 3:05AM

Thanks Wolfbear.

Here's a good example of what I mean. I just traded for a 65 Kaline and a 65 Yaz. Both probably wont grade higher than Ex/Ex+ but they are well centered, crease free, great color etc. They mean more to me than a gem mint card. And to boot, they havent been trimmed. altered etc.

My 65 Topps set will remain around an SGC 60/70 grade, but its still a nice set.

lostdart58 · March 21, 2005 3:23AM

<< 

<< If you are into set registries then the SGC's are pretty weak. Not enough cards have been graded especially commons for one to be able to acquire cards for most sets.
You would have to get them graded yourself.

For example the 1972 Topps Baseball

PSA registered sets current 78: PSA sets with more then 20% complete 25

SGC registered sets current 3 : SGC sets with more then 20% complete 0 ( The highest set is about 11% complete) >>

As an owner of one of those 3 1972 Topps SGC sets, let me comment.....I think your comment about the SGC registry being weak is unfounded. For example, my collecting habits are a little different. I dont have tons of cash, nor the time to scout out the best mint examples of the various sets I'm building. I belong to a trading website where I make trades for vintage cards that appeal to me. If I feel the card worthy of encapsulation, I'll send it in. Most of my sets are in the 1-3% completion range because thats the way I enjoy building them. I could easily go to shows and nail down set after set but that's not as much fun for me. As far as grading them myself, that's also part of my enjoyment. I like finding a decent raw card and submitting it. Does all that make my registry entry weak? >>

I am not putting down anyone's way of collecting cards.

..........but if you want to compile a complete set of 72 Topps all in SGC capsules..........you cannot do it.........

WinPitcher · March 21, 2005 3:43AM

I wonder why the "Doyle" mistake was not answered.

koby · March 21, 2005 4:24AM

<< 
As an owner of one of those 3 1972 Topps SGC sets, let me comment.....I think your comment about the SGC registry being weak is unfounded. >>

I don't think any of the 1972 Topps collections on the SGC registry can really be charaterized as a "set". One guy is ten percent complete and there are two other guys who are zero percent complete.

mrredman · March 21, 2005 6:01AM

I use both SGC and PSA for my personal sets of Red Man cards. I use SGC for my unautographed cards and PSA/DNA for my autographed cards. Both companies grade very strictly at times, yet both can be "generous" with their grades. I'm sure we all have examples of both!! I prefer the SGC holder, becasue the black insert makes the colors of the Red Man cards really stand out.

I thought I would provide a bit of data regarding how SGC and PSA graded cards fair in the marketplace. The data below is based on 1952 and 1955 Red Man tobacco cards sold at auction, since Nov. 2004, through Bill Goodwin and Memory Lane, and include the 15% buyer's premium.

1952 Berra SGC 88 $3169 (288% of SMR) Goodwin 2/05 auction
1952 Berra PSA 8 $2881 (262% of SMR) Goodwin 11/04 auction

1955 Snider SGC 88 $880 (107% of SMR) Goodwin 11/04 auction
1955 Snider PSA 8 $1201 (146% of SMR) Memory Lane 11/04 auction

1955 Kluszewski SGC 88 $506 (145% of SMR) Goodwin 11/04 auctio
1955 Kluszewski PSA 8 $453 (121% of SMR) Goodwin 2/05 auction

CONCLUSION: mixed results

Other SGC graded Red Man results include:

1952 Joost SGC 88 $1774 (887% of SMR) Goodwin 2/05 auction
1952 Torgeson SGC 88 $1742 (871% of SMR) Goodwin 2/05 auction
1952 Kiner SGC88 $2310 (486% of SMR) Goodwin 2/05 auction
1952 Ashburn SGC88 $2796 (486% of SMR) Goodwin 2/05 auction

Hope this helps shed some light on how well they both fair in the world of the "Red Man".

Whale · March 21, 2005 6:15AM

Southerncards, you may not think be thinking about the investment angle when building your collection but if you're paying to have cards graded or paying premiums for graded cards then it does need to be looked at as an investment. It's an investment you should only make if there's a market for what you're investing in. To use the 1972 set as an example, there's little to no market for them so you'd be better off keeping cards raw than investing any money into grading. Look at all the extra money you can buy cards with.

Southerncards · March 21, 2005 3:45PM

koby - my 0 percent set is a set (that I'm building). Perhaps I should have phrased it that way. Regardless, I think that is just semantics.

whale - while I understand what you say about the investment, I think there's a difference. I dont get cards graded for investment, hope for higher resale, whatever. I get them graded because I like they way they look in the holder, I like the fact that someone else has checked it for alterations etc. Money is never ever an issue with me as far as making or losing money. This is my hobby, plain and simple. Is it penny wise and pound foolish to grade a VG/Ex card? Perhaps, but I like it.

Seriously, why do the guys over on the SGC board hate PSA so much?

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