Seeking Advice on Dealer Rip-Off

hoshor · December 6, 2004 11:20AM

I have been liquidating my recently deceased father's extensive coin collection. He had many wonderful and fascinating pieces. Unfortunately, he also paid an incredible hefty premium. I have one situation in particular I'm looking for some advice. I found a very unusual NGC certified coin, a Judd pattern dollar. I found the receipt from a coin dealer (whose name shall remain undisclosed for the moment). He had paid roughly $4600 for a PR61 speciman in Oct 2003. I did some research and found the exact same coin (same cert#) had sold at a Heritage auction in that summer for $1620. The dealer is claiming that my father specifically requsted that particular piece and they searched high and low until the found just the coin. That seems a little hard to swallow as this was the only pattern coin in his rather large collection. I had also come across a hand written notation indicating that the coin was being sold to him for 5% above wholesale. I ended up contacting the director of the firm and requested that they repurchase the coin less a fair and reasonable handling fee. This offer was not accepted although they did offer to attempt to resell the coin. It was shipped but absolutely no response. They've sat on it for a couple of months and now want to return it to me. So.....what types of pressure can be brought against the dealer? I'm thinking about contacting the ANA, NGC and Heritage but am looking for some advice for a bad situation. Any and all help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Russ · December 6, 2004 11:23AM

Are they a PNG member? If so, you may also want to contact them.

Also, do you know if this dealer bought the coin directly out of the auction? If not, it could be that they purchased it from a third party and the markup may not be nearly as high as it seems.

Russ, NCNE

dthigpen · December 6, 2004 11:24AM

Unfortunately there is not a whole lot you can do on this. The agreement made to purchase this coin was made between your father and the dealer, and your father is no longer around to verify the circumstances, so the only word there is is the dealer, and as your father was obviously a collector and chose to pay that price, his word has to be taken as reputable (Professionally, personally you can feel free to feel what you will about it). Contacting the ANA, etc will result in very little in this situation. I suppose if you can prove the dealer purchased the coin from Heritage then perhaps you would have some sort of ethical case if you have documentation that states you father believed it was sold 5% above wholesale; however, good luck getting it.

Louis · December 6, 2004 11:25AM

I have no advice in the situation, but I wish you luck in resolving the issue.

RKKay · December 6, 2004 11:27AM

Call me if you need advice on the pattern. Rick 310-230-6939

Louis · December 6, 2004 11:27AM

Russ's advice about PNG sounds like good advice if the dealer is a member.

RYK · December 6, 2004 11:30AM

Patterns are among the most illiquid US coins. It is possible that the coin in question traded hands several times between the time it was sold in auction and the time he purchased it. Furthermore, the pattern market has cooled, so getting his money out of the coin will be difficult.

My assessment: I understand your frustration and anger. When you purchase a coin, there is no guarantee that it will hold its value. Your father no doubt knew this. I am not sure you will have a leg to stand on with the ANA, NGC, or Heritage.

My advice: Sell the coin (or auction it) and move on.

Good luck!

Robert

fcloud · December 6, 2004 11:31AM

Many times collectors will pay too much knowing they are paying too much for an item simply to get what they want. There is no way of knowing the situation. There really is nothing you can do without him to fill in the blanks.

I'm sorry you lost you father.

RYK · December 6, 2004 11:33AM

Since Rick offered, I would have no hesitation calling Rick and getting his advice on how to sell the coin.

hoshor · December 6, 2004 11:37AM

Link to Coin

coinlieutenant · December 6, 2004 11:37AM

Ditto that.

JrGMan2004 · December 6, 2004 11:38AM

If you need references, I met Rick in FUN... real nice guy, real knowledgable about Patterns (Though he always says our own forum members MrEureka and boiler blow him away in the knowledge department) but he is a very trustworthy dealer...

MrEureka · December 6, 2004 11:41AM

If you PM me and tell me who sold your father the coin, I might be able to help you find a solution. Not likely, but possible and worth a try. Regardless, I'll keep all details confidential.

Andy Lustig

airplanenut · December 6, 2004 11:45AM

Just to put in a good word--do contact Andy and/or Rick. They are both truly knowledgeable, passionate, and great guys in general.

Jeremy

MrEureka · December 6, 2004 12:03PM

They are both truly knowledgeable, passionate, and great guys in general.

Aw, shucks...

Neptune · December 6, 2004 12:20PM

It is possible that that coin was very special to your Father. Maybe that date is his Father or Mother's birthday - or someone's year of birth. Maybe you may want to consider keeping it for awhile to pass on to another family member - or until pattern prices go back up.

good luck - let us know how it turns out.

TUMUSS · December 6, 2004 12:28PM

I'm sorry to hear about your father's passing.

majorbigtime · December 6, 2004 12:36PM

<< <i>I'm sorry to hear about your father's passing. >>

Me too (been there, done that)!

Seems as if your father was ripped-off, but it's caveat emptor in the coin biz.

Tell the dealer you will post his identity on these boards if you are not treated fairly!

MFH · December 6, 2004 1:04PM

Hosher,

Sorry to hear of your father's passing. I agree with Russ who inquired if that firm are members of PNG.
My first course of action is to find that out. Secondly, I'd endeavour to find out if that dealer bought that pattern coin directly from Heritage or thru an intermediary. Thirdly, take Andy and Rick up on their offers to help; it could very be worth your while. Arming yourself with the first two caveats will help others help you.

FYI , according the most recent Judd pattern book, a pattern coin J 1617, in a PCGS holder, Proof 63 was sold at a Goldberg auction in February, 2003 for $ 2070.

If you do not get the results you expect to be fair and equitable please feel free to divulge the name of the dealer. I think we'd all like to know who not to deal with.

Good luck !

morgannut2 · December 6, 2004 11:36PM

There is an assumption here that the the dealer was an expert in a fairly thinnly traded unique market segment. It's very likely a wholesaler or two took a shot at both the dealer and your dad. The dealer may have been just following your father's instructions. Several reputable pattern experts have been referred to you to consult and they may be able to find out what really transpired. Good luck.

KollectorKing · December 7, 2004 12:51AM

LOL, this is another example of a one sided story. How often have these stories been repeated in this forum. It's very easy to condemn, prosecute, and convict another party especially when the "rest of the story" or the rest of the facts are unknown.

Rampage · December 7, 2004 12:54AM

<< <i>

<< <i>I'm sorry to hear about your father's passing. >>

Me too (been there, done that)!
Seems as if your father was ripped-off, but it's caveat emptor in the coin biz.
Tell the dealer you will post his identity on these boards if you are not treated fairly! >>

Interesting statement.

ER · December 7, 2004 1:00AM

Interesting. Let 's hear both sides of the story.

Seeking Advice on Dealer Rip-Off

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